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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » balance seems almost perfect...
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Topic Subject:balance seems almost perfect...
proq
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 02:22 AM EDT (US)         
Egyptians are almost tuned down enough to be left alone... I don't even think the fast heroic should be removed. I do think the migdol units need to be weaker and/or cost more along with the migdol itself.

Norse were always fast, but I think this is overdoing it. The barracks are built quick and cheap to start massing a army and be ready to attack by 6-7 minutes. If hippikons were given more time to produce, I think the norse units need this type of change too. The barracks should be built a lil slower maybe since it costs so little.

Greeks never had much wrong with them except for the militia and shades crap that can be pretty abusive if a good player has them.

Overall, the game is getting closer to perfect balance between these three cultures. I don't see any reason to claim imbalance as if it's impossible to beat a certain strategy. Any good greek can beat a good norse player and vice versa. Same goes for egyptians. I just wish ES doesn't listen too much to the newbs for they have yet to learn the game well enough to even have their opinions considered.


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AuthorReplies:
Colovion
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 02:31 AM EDT (US)     1 / 21       
I agree - I'm sure ES knows the difference between Newb whining and actual bugs/imbalances (at least I hope so)

Men do not become tyrants in order to keep out the cold

- Aristotle -
Drench19
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 03:06 AM EDT (US)     2 / 21       
i completely disagree i think the game has a long way to go before its anything near perfect.


It reminds me of how the warcraft III community was when that game launched.

First it was the hunt rush. All the hunt rushers complained that it was unessary to nerf hunts. It was always the newbs fault.

Then it was tower rushing. They were awsome players the newbs just sucked.

And with every patch something got nered or buffed.

And all those very Hunt rushers and tower rushers, and mass shaman players. Who used to dominate suddenly started disappearing from the rankings all togeather.

As it turns out those very same people just were'nt very good at the game. See they could'nt win unless they had some cheap unfair tactic that they could abuse to latch on too.

Thats exactly whats going on here. Everyones latching on to the cheapest way to win.
first mass TA's, than mass toxotes, Poseidon cavs, now you have Ra,s fast heroic, and norse Raiding cav rush. And i bet you its the same players doing RA's fast heroic today that were doing poseidon cav rush yesterday. They can't win unless they have the odds stacked in there favor so they go from abusing one imbalance to another. All the while calling everyone newbs for wanting the game to be balanced and fair.

And i hope ES continues to patch the game hopefully as quick and as often as blizzard has.

The Wrong Guy
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 03:19 AM EDT (US)     3 / 21       
If the odds were stacked in their favour with the Hippikon rush why did they change to fast heroic?
Maybe(shock, horror) someone countered their strat. Whoops, how silly of me how could someone counter an "unbeatable" strat
TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 03:29 AM EDT (US)     4 / 21       
I agree Drench, but I think too people need to understand that sometimes you need a little caution in decided that something is overpowered. It could be that people will work a simple way to beat that tactic...they simply need to explore the options available in the game.

TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
proq
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 03:46 AM EDT (US)     5 / 21       
Ra is easy... I have yet to find a RA FH that has won against me 1v1... In fact, I challenge any of you RA Fast Heroic users to play me 1v1 and I guarantee it won't work. It's just not practical to expect to have an army fast enough to fight an army that has been accumulating since the first minute of classical. The reason ES needs to patch RA is that during team games, playing against RA is no fun at all. You know what he is gonna do and you know how to stop it, but you can't always get there because of the other teammates. I don't think ES should remove the Fast Heroic at all... I just think the costs need to go up and/or the strength needs to go down. I don't want to hear complaints about gold dependency. You only need at least 2 gold mines to get to heroic and once you get there you can produce those pretty units of yours to defend the other mines you want to use. There is an abundance of available gold if your not letting the player get to heroic and mythic. If you get rushed and lose, you can't say it was because of gold shortages around your base.

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redstarz1
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 04:32 AM EDT (US)     6 / 21       
wtf , egyptions are the easiest for me to beat , its loki thats hard to me. hmm, there might be a differance though because I play dm games. but other than that , egyptions are weak to me.
simwiz2
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 04:52 AM EDT (US)     7 / 21       
Drench - If a tactic is available in the game, it is in no way "cheap and unfair". A Ra FH is not cheap, nor is mass toxotes, or any other tactic. Anything available in the game (except bugs such as 99%) is there to be used. If someone beats you with a new tactic then that is their reward for being creative. If someone beats you with an easy tactic that has been done many times then that is your fault for being unprepared for an ovbious possible tactic.

None of your AoM examples are overpowered. You just seem to be unhappy because you got beaten by those tactics.


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Triped
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 04:57 AM EDT (US)     8 / 21       
This might sound a bit contradictory to another post I just made, but who cares.

Cheap tactic (in RTS): employing a strategy that is beatable, but requires significantly more work to counter than to pull off.

The existence of a tactic does not automatically disqualify it from "cheap" status.

DarkFlame
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 06:20 AM EDT (US)     9 / 21       
So simwiz, you're basically saying that there are no such things as unbalance or cheap tactics?

Ohmigod, fancy colour fading!
I blame these purple things.
GFWL: NilePenguin
samourai iv
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 08:23 AM EDT (US)     10 / 21       
i think Set should be fixed so that people can win in the rated games by worshipping Set. The current Set is too inaccessible for those who will win the games.

The only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to wonder whether you are happy or not -George Bernard Shaw
vader42xx
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 08:55 AM EDT (US)     11 / 21       
Look at what you're seeing here. You have dozens of people talking about dozens of different things. Yes, there are SOME cheap tactics but 9 times out of 10 it's just someone not knowing how to beat something and then whining about it. What people seem to think they want is for each civ to be totally balanced so that every player has an equal chance to beat any other...well folks, that's not going to happen...and it shouldn't. You might want to consider that you're just getting beaten by better players and/or that you need to find a better way to deal with the things being thrown at you.
The only tactic that I think is probably a bit cheap is Ra's fast heroic. And the reason is very simple...that seems to be the ONLY tactic that 95% of the people are having a problem with. I hear one or two people talk about Loki, then Odin, then egyptions as a whole, etc. Most of those are just people who don't know how to beat a certain thing...not cheap tactics. Just learn to play better and/or differently...that's better than having the game patched to the point that it's no longer fun.

edit- By the way, in reply to the post that started this thread. I don't see the need for any change to the norse or anything else right now, except Ra's fast heroic. I've ideas on how they could tone that down but this isn't the place (other threads are already covering that). Anyway, IF anything, tone down Ra's fast heroic and then leave the game the heck alone except for the bugs.


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. -- The Bhagavad-Gita, quoted by Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer

[This message has been edited by vader42xx (edited 12-23-2002 @ 09:04 AM).]

Mr_Boingy
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 10:00 AM EDT (US)     12 / 21       
Proq touched on this subject but could someone go into a little more depth for me pls.

Let's say u got 2 players of equal ability (yeah, difficult in real life but this is theoretical).

Both Ra and choosing same first minor deity.

One decides to forego massing troops at Classical and goes for fast heroic.

Other goes for 'rushing' in classical (and let's face it, we've had plenty of people complaining about how AoM is a rushers only game!!).

Now, again, assuming the players are of 'equal' standard, I am presuming that neither is guaranteed an easy victory.

Is that correct?

If there is a serious inbalance, then the Fast Heroic guy will win every time.

It'd be nice to be able to run a simulation of what the outcomes would be of such a fight (like they do in that really naff film Wargames...)

proq
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 10:07 AM EDT (US)     13 / 21       
I don't know... I think a good FH would beat an egyptian rush

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jwj442
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 10:32 AM EDT (US)     14 / 21       
Yeah, I think that only the Egyptians have a problem with Ra FH. It's not that hard to beat with Greeks or Norse.
Ferrari_Warrior
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 12:06 PM EDT (US)     15 / 21       
plenty of people claimed that the balance was perfect before the 1.02 patch too...

and look what happened...Poiseden got nerfed and Norse were made stronger.

RA will most likely be nerfed. And it has nothing to do with 'newbies'. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that RA's early economy is a bit too strong.

you self proclaimed 'experts' have been wrong on balance issues since 1.0...

it's pretty funny too.

vader42xx
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 01:09 PM EDT (US)     16 / 21       
I don't know of anyone who said the game was well balanced before the last patch. Certainly no one who wanted to play norse said that...those guys were out of the running from the day the game hit the shelves. Now they are actually good enough to play...not TOO good, but just AS good.

I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. -- The Bhagavad-Gita, quoted by Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer
simwiz2
Mortal
posted 23 December 2002 11:49 PM EDT (US)     17 / 21       
If a strong tactic is in the game - USE IT, or else your opponent will. The question is whether you want to win or not.

If it is unbalanced then ES will take it out in a patch, and you will need to find a new tactic - but until then it is available to be used.


To all the "scrubs" (remember the article posted on the forums) I have a question for you. What would you have done if, when mass toxotes was considered too strong, it was used against you? Resigned and said to yourself: "well I really won because he had to use a cheap tactic" or used counter units and good strategy to win? And if you had done the former, wouldn't you feel a bit stupid now that mass toxotes is no longer considered overpowered?


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Martie
Mortal
posted 24 December 2002 06:55 AM EDT (US)     18 / 21       
well, pictures say a thousand words, so here goes:

Must I say more?


-Martie
Ferrari_Warrior
Mortal
posted 24 December 2002 10:16 AM EDT (US)     19 / 21       
Say what you want the next patch will have balance changes....

need I say more?

simwiz2
Mortal
posted 24 December 2002 12:34 PM EDT (US)     20 / 21       
I don't find Ra hard to counter... as Isis I used obelisks to keep them observed and knocked out the first Migdol as it was going up, killing about 5 villies in the process. He then took about 15 vills off of resource gathering to get a Migdol up in his base (and supposedly if that happens he's already lost the advantage) I pumped slingers and spearmen, and, realizing he had lost, he resigned when I reached Heroic. I don't know if he was a good FH'er, but the point is the strat is far from foolproof.

And the next patch probably will have changes... all I was saying was that whining about "cheap" strategies (Drench even said a "rush" was cheap lol) is pointless and n00bish. If a strat is too strong, ask that it be balanced in a patch, don't claim that everyone who uses it is a cheap n00b that likes to ruin the fun of games.


Computer Specs: Pentium 4 2.53 GHz, 1024 MB PC800 RDRAM, NVidia GeForce 4 TI4600 128 MB, SoundBlaster Audigy Live. 18" LCD Flat Panel Display and 15" CRT Monitor, 4-speaker plus subwoofer surround sound.
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Rating: 1722 (Ki11aB33)
proq
Mortal
posted 24 December 2002 02:33 PM EDT (US)     21 / 21       
I said almost... I am also expecting balance patches, but threads like yours, Ferrari, is an exaggeration to say the least. I won't forget Hades27, but he is talked about enough. The game isn't horribly imbalanced, it is close to perfect balance... it still has issues to resolve, but nothing to complain about while your waiting.

Proud member of Tsunami Studios
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ESO: Zeusthor
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