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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Is Egyptian Seige Unbalanced?
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Topic Subject:Is Egyptian Seige Unbalanced?
G Man
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 04:47 PM EDT (US)         
Hello All,

Although not an overly active member in the AOM community I am an active player as are several of my close friends. We play five or six games a week on our LAN at work and have played all of the Age games over the years.

The latest argument that has come up and won't die is that one of the players involved with our weekly games STRONGLY believes that the Egyptian catapults are significantly stronger then any of the seige in any of the other races which invariably unbalancese the game. He believes that their long range and higher CD makes them too powerful.

There is no impirical data, in fact, he plays the greeks and has won far more consistently then any of the egyptian players involved in our games (myself included). The egyptian seige catapults definitely have the longer range and higher CD, however are handicapped by their lower HP when comparing them directly to the greeks. Also, the egyptians only get the ranged catapults in the forth age where the greeks get them in the third (granted the greeks catapults are significantly weaker).

My counter argument is that the Egyptians have their inherent weaknesses, if your not playing RA they have slower economies, they all build their buildings slower without the aid of the Pharoah, making the egyptians more of a micromanaged civ then the others, the Egyptians also have limited hero units. The Greeks have their inherent strengths that can counter balance this Egyptian strength and capitalize on it's weaknesses. The greeks have powerful hero units, they have a more "stable" early economy due to their inherent faster gather rates, they have powerful cavalry and stronger ranged archers then the Egyptians and these stengths must be used to defeat the stonger seige.

What are your thoughts on the Egyptian seige and seige in general in the game? Is seige to strong across all the civs as some of my friends stipulate and that the Egyptians is by far the strongest which then unbalances the game?

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

LET ME KNOW!

AuthorReplies:
Cazbr
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 04:58 PM EDT (US)     1 / 18       
Egyptian siege in a Roc is unbalanced and ES should patch this IMHO.

All true stories end in death.
Nucleargnome
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 04:58 PM EDT (US)     2 / 18       
I dissagree on the weaker economy for Egypt, i think Egypt has a Stronger Economy compared to any other culture....
One of Egypts weakness's is their heavy reliance on Gold, and i think the Catapult sacrfices Power for hp and Armor.

ESO:LKS_Nuke, Nucleargnome
Current Rating:1661
Current Favourite God: Isis
Proud trainee of LKS
G Man
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 05:22 PM EDT (US)     3 / 18       
If you take a look at the rates below you will see that the egyptians gather resources significantly slower then the other two races unless the gathers are empowered. Thus, in my mind making their economy less strong then the other to civs.

Rates
Type Hunt Herd Wild Farm Wood Gold
Egypt Laborer 0.76 0.65 0.65 0.63 0.98 0.82
Empowered Laborer 0.91 0.78 0.78 0.76 1.18 0.98
Greek Villager 0.85 0.73 0.73 0.69 1.08 0.91
Norse Gatherer 0.85 0.73 0.73 0.69 1.08 0.91
Norse Dwarf 0.68 0.58 0.58 0.53 0.80 1.09
Thor Dwarf 0.85 0.73 0.73 0.66 1.00 1.09

Damn, the table didn't turn out very well. Too bad the font isn't true type. Anyway, here is the link to it so you can see the pretty version.

[This message has been edited by G Man (edited 01-17-2003 @ 05:48 PM).]

hades27
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 05:49 PM EDT (US)     4 / 18       
Egyptian Seige IS overwhelming. Crush damage 50 for a ranged Siege? comon..

- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
Mokon
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 06:39 PM EDT (US)     5 / 18       
i dont think its overpowered just kill them before they get to mythic.... also have u had 6 helepolises come agaist ur base..... they take a fair ammount to take out...
Celois
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 06:41 PM EDT (US)     6 / 18       
If Egyptain seige is overpowered, Portable Rams definatly are.
hades27
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 06:57 PM EDT (US)     7 / 18       
portable rams are WEAK!

and egyptians rolling siege weapon thing are still dangerous, another 50 crush damage.. deadly combo with Roc /shifting sands.. = Cheesy


- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!

[This message has been edited by hades27 (edited 01-17-2003 @ 06:59 PM).]

Ye7i
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 07:21 PM EDT (US)     8 / 18       
I don't think the Roc should be able to carry seige. Because, and from experience, landing seige up high on mountains can be devastating, and without any close combat to tackle them with, with them on the hill, you have to use archers. And I'm not entirely sure, but archers are probably pathetic vs. Seige.
Kaziglu Bey
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 07:53 PM EDT (US)     9 / 18       
I have no idea about wether it's unbalanced in any way, but the egyptian catapult sure is boring. As said, that much siege attack on something with that kind of range is just not fun. The only reason to use anything else like those scarabs for instance, is if you're stuck fighting in the third age. After that all other egyptian ways of siege become unrewarding in comparison to the catapult.
Carerra
Mortal
posted 17 January 2003 09:30 PM EDT (US)     10 / 18       
when you say greek has a strong cavalry and archers i think you are forgetting the egyptian camels and chariot archers
Sokhar
Mortal
posted 18 January 2003 07:00 AM EDT (US)     11 / 18       
The Egyptian catapult is not unbalanced because although the damage that it does is high, the Greek catapult throws three stones as opposed to just one, and the Norse ballista fires even more arrows. Yes, this is a confusing system which applies to ships as well; you have to multiply damage by the number of projectiles.
bread_muncher
Mortal
posted 18 January 2003 10:27 AM EDT (US)     12 / 18       
/\/\/\/\/\and the number that hit

"There are many obvious things in this world which no on by chance observes." -Mr. Sherlock Holmes
Why would someone want to learn if Knowledge=Power, Power Corrupts, and Corruption leads to Crime?
ESO name= Koopa_Troopa
shadowspawn_24
Mortal
posted 18 January 2003 11:43 AM EDT (US)     13 / 18       
catpults arent unbalanced if anything they just too slow too move anywhere plus by the time they get to your base you should be able to move ome sorta melle guys towrd em personally helepolis is unbalanced to me load em up with five toxotes and let em rip the greek petrobolos are unfortunately weak while ballistas are extremely powerful portable rams suck!!!!111
jwj442
Mortal
posted 18 January 2003 01:03 PM EDT (US)     14 / 18       
Yes, the catapult is powerful. But it's really slow and can't stand up to hits very much. Also, although it is better than the petrobolus and better against buildings than the ballista, the difference isn't as huge as it might seem because the damage is per rock/bolt. The ballista shoots 4 bolts, the petro shoots 3 rocks, and the helepolis shoots 3 bolts.

I think that the crappiness of Egyptian heroic siege makes up for the power of the catapult. I'll take a Norse portable ram over a siege tower any day. Rams are cheap and fast. Siege towers are expensive and slow. Also, because of the size of siege towers they'll spend a lot of time bumping into each other, and trying to find a way around other siege towers and enemy units. While they're moving around looking like they're drunk and trying to get to a building, enemy units are doing damage to them. And it isn't ranged like the petrobolus either.

Actually, I think Greek siege is the best. First of all, they're the only ones to get ranged siege in heroic. Also, the helepolis is powerful, hard to kill, and even does decent against units.

PS: Please don't listen to what hades27 says. He's our official Egyptian whiner (note his sig).

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-18-2003 @ 01:06 PM).]

G Man
Mortal
posted 20 January 2003 09:46 AM EDT (US)     15 / 18       
Thanks for the feedback guys...

I think the most tell tale piece of information that proves that the egyptian seige is not as over powerfull as my friend thinks is the number of projectiles they shoot.

From Sokhar:

Quote:

The Egyptian catapult is not unbalanced because although the damage that it does is high, the Greek catapult throws three stones as opposed to just one, and the Norse ballista fires even more arrows. Yes, this is a confusing system which applies to ships as well; you have to multiply damage by the number of projectiles.

From jwj442

Quote:

Yes, the catapult is powerful. But it's really slow and can't stand up to hits very much. Also, although it is better than the petrobolus and better against buildings than the ballista, the difference isn't as huge as it might seem because the damage is per rock/bolt. The ballista shoots 4 bolts, the petro shoots 3 rocks, and the helepolis shoots 3 bolts.

Do you guys have more definitive proof of this somewhere? I've never heard this before. It's not listed in the unit attributes on planetAOM.com and I haven't seen my manual since I opened my box!

DarkKnight_
Mortal
(id: PW_DarkKnight)
posted 20 January 2003 09:50 AM EDT (US)     16 / 18       
Egypt is supposed to have better siege. Just because it is very strong doesn't mean it's unbalanced.

Siege is very slow, takes a long time to reload after an atatck, and they die fairly easily to hack attacks.


DK
goodbaby
Mortal
posted 20 January 2003 01:37 PM EDT (US)     17 / 18       
I think siege is well balanced in AOM.Each civ has its own feature.
Heroic:
Greek has the BEST siege for it's ranged!It makes about 100 damage with each shoot.That's deadful in heroic age because greek has very powerful toxotes+hippikon combo and fortress to protect the siege.
Egypt and Norse have OK siege in heroic.IMO,norse's heroic sige is little better than Egypt's for their speed and size.
But egypt's siege do more damage to buildings.
Myth age:
Norse has the worst siege.Greek and Egypt's siege are both good.
Norse's Ballista is not a real siege.Very few crush damage does it do.Although it has the longest range(30),it's very weak against any melee units and takes forever to knock down a building.I seldom use Ballista is I am playing Norse.
Egypt has a good ranged siege.It really hurts the buildings.2 catapults plus protecting army can knock down anything. Greek has a new low ranged siege with very high HP,and do a lot damage.But as what I saw,greek guys still prefer the heroic siege for it's range.

thsu
Mortal
posted 20 January 2003 02:25 PM EDT (US)     18 / 18       
Playing Ra or Isis, catapults are fast because the roc carrying them travels almost as fast as cavalry. Also, Egypt does have ranged heroic siege, and Norse has mythic ranged siege. They just happen to be myth units (petsuchos and fire giant).

Personally, I don't find anything wrong with the siege units as they are. The only thing I find too powerful is the roc + catapult combination. Anyone who uses it or has had it used against them would atest that countering a roc drop with catapults requires devoting an extraordinarily large amount of troops and time (a roc + siege tower drop isn't nearly as bad because the roc has to get up and personal in that case).

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