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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » just a question to ES or anyone about ES's logic behind Calv in AoM, please tell me your opinions
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Topic Subject:just a question to ES or anyone about ES's logic behind Calv in AoM, please tell me your opinions
American Eagle
Mortal
posted 05 June 2003 11:56 PM EDT (US)         
Now im not whining, im just curious... Now in the making of AOM why did ES push the age to make calv to the 2nd (classical)? In AoC it was 3rd (Castle). Now i would think if all calv would have been in heroic it would alow for infantry and archers to be the primary armys in classical, and then start mixing calv in in later ages. so... i mean this is probly why everyone gets bored of game so quickly because calv is basically dominate millitary unit u c through all the ages? Furthermore, all the powerhouse anti calv units are in heroic and up i.e. Prodromos, Camels, Greatest of Fifty Spearmen, etc. can u explain that to me? i mean name one classical age unit that is a truly effective anti calv unit, and dont say spearmen cause u know as well as i do calv kills them till they get greatest of fifty, which is a heroic upgrade btw...... just thinking that the overall gameplay was hurt alowing ppl to use calv so much while they truely dominate unless u use another calv unit to cancle it out in classical.... just wondering what your logic was on this issue. Did u think having calv dominate the battlefeild as they do now whould improve the gameplay?

-For the glory of Greece
AuthorReplies:
GOTD_FireCobra
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 00:08 AM EDT (US)     1 / 16       
Cavalry has its place... It is supposed to be used for countering archers, and raiding. (Classical Age)

If it were just infantry and archers, what would you use to counter the archers? Infantry won't work. Neither will other archers do that effectivly.

The best answer is cavalry, which are countered by infantry. (Ulfark ect.)

American Eagle
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 00:19 AM EDT (US)     2 / 16       
now wait a second, AoC u didnt get Calv till castle, and there where ways to counter archers, thats just sound like poor planing on ES's part, and that still doesn't answer why the true powerhouse anti calv are heroic and up, while u can make clav in classical. i mean simply make Peltast, and a slightly weakend huskarl all classical age units (eggies have slingers) and there yo go anti archers without the dominating calv in classical. U dont think this would have expanded the game some?

-For the glory of Greece
Taliesyn
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 01:52 AM EDT (US)     3 / 16       
Your peltasts give greek anti-archer, but remember that the peltasts are far better than slingers. Also, what would you do for norse? EVERYTHING you're leaving them is infantry, and if you move RC's back to Heroic,

1) No one will ever make them again, as the jarl is available in heroic

2) Norse would have no anti-archer, as their counters for archers are RC, Jarl, Huskarl, and (some say) ballista.

Right now, cavalry counters archers, archers counter infantry, and infantry counters cavalry. Removing a leg from that would totally FUBAR the classical portion of the game.


"My Legions of Terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice."
Kaziglu Bey
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 09:03 AM EDT (US)     4 / 16       
People get cavalry because they can do raids with it and not because cavalry would be overpowered in the second age. While egypt has no cavalry in Classical, their spearmen are fast enough to fill the role of early raiding. The greek need the Hippikon because they have no other regular unit that is useful for raiding. If units like the Prodromos or Camelry would be available in the second age then there would be much less raiding. Especially not by the norse who would be at a disadvantage.
ColdWind2Valhala
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 09:20 AM EDT (US)     5 / 16       
Calvary in Classical *should* be used for raiding and countering archers. But as of right now it seems calvary are to hard to counter in classical + they cost low food so they become the dominating unit.

Simple Example.....

Ulfs have no chance of countering calvary effectively... because they can not hurt a calvary nearly as much as the ulfs counter hurts the ulf.... 10 ulfs are killed by toxotes before they can kill 2 calvary. So the only chance to counter calvary is with other calvary.

[This message has been edited by ColdWind2Valhala (edited 06-06-2003 @ 09:24 AM).]

Thegl
Banned
posted 06 June 2003 10:54 AM EDT (US)     6 / 16       
I agree thier counters don't counter them nearly well enough, except maybe spearmen.

I think ES tried to balance out all out the costs based upon combat which worked fairly well. BUT, historically, if a cavalry unit only cost slightly more than an infantry unit, ever civilization in history would have made full armies of cavalry due to the innate movement advantage. Of course, that wasn't the case due to thier real cost and upkeep.

In early history a few cavalry for raiding was successful, but they were lightly armored and easily defeated by properly equipped infantry, which made exclusive use a bad idea. That is not the case in AOM. A spear toting hoplite should just destroy a charging cavalry unit.

ES just underestimated the importance of raiding, gave them too much pierce armor, and let them stand up too well to infantry units. Given that cavalry is cheap (relatively per hp), fast, stands up well to defensive units, and stands up well to thier counter, it is only natural that cav dominate- the exact same way they would have historically if reality was based up AOM numbers. (I think ES gave cavalry middle ages strengths while every other unit is stuck in antiquity, if that analogy makes any sense)

poppy123
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 11:01 AM EDT (US)     7 / 16       
just wondering the bonus's classical anti-cav get,

Spears - is it 1.1 ?

Hopolites - none ??

Ulfsark - ???


I hear this internets pretty good. I was thinking of buying one
ColdWind2Valhala
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 11:06 AM EDT (US)     8 / 16       
Puppy123, I believe spearman are 1.1 and hoplites/ulfs have no bonus.

Thats why ulfs/hoplites/spears can't counter calvary.

ulfs get pounded with like 2x or 3x or 4x multiplyers from toxotes or throwing axeman while they get no bonus against calvary they are supposed to counter.

Result = the ulfs getting slaughtered before any significant damage to the calvary.

I'd say either tame the multipliers against infantry that counter infantry get or increase their bonus versus calvary so they can get some damage in before they die.

Cheesewiz
HG Alumnus
posted 06 June 2003 11:46 AM EDT (US)     9 / 16       
haha, cavelery is so not over powered, yesterday i was in a game where this guy raided my gold mine, my military was busy fighting esle where so i had by dwarfs at my mine fight them, there were 5 cavelery and 10 of my dwarfs, the dwarfs won big time, i lost 4 dwarfs to his 5 cavelery. And, spearman do own RC and hippokons fall pop wise and cost wise to infantry, so try not to worry much about this

Ex-Seraph Cheesewiz - Former WICH Webmaster, AOE3H Webmaster, & RTWH Staff, HeavenGames LLC
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ColdWind2Valhala
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 11:50 AM EDT (US)     10 / 16       
cheesewiz, you lost 4 dwarves, that is a game ender, shattered economy, lol (he accomplished exactly what he wanted to). 1 dwarf is a game ender above 1800

"hippokons fall pop wise and cost wise to infantry" right but throw in just a few anti-infantry and the infantry have no chance.

[This message has been edited by ColdWind2Valhala (edited 06-06-2003 @ 11:51 AM).]

Mark_Aurel
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 12:22 PM EDT (US)     11 / 16       

Quote:

Puppy123, I believe spearman are 1.1 and hoplites/ulfs have no bonus.
Thats why ulfs/hoplites/spears can't counter calvary.

ulfs get pounded with like 2x or 3x or 4x multiplyers from toxotes or throwing axeman while they get no bonus against calvary they are supposed to counter.

Result = the ulfs getting slaughtered before any significant damage to the calvary.

I'd say either tame the multipliers against infantry that counter infantry get or increase their bonus versus calvary so they can get some damage in before they die.

Toxotes have no multiplier against infantry. The only reason they work is because of range and damage type. In small numbers, ulfsarks beat toxotes. Without a meat shield, any infantry beats toxotes. TA do have a bonus - 2.25 vs ulfs and spearmen, and 2.75 vs hoplites - but TA are a bit worse as general combat units than toxotes are. Egyptian axemen own infantry, though - the thing is, pure infantry own their other units in classical as well.

Infantry is better than you give it credit for, but still not good enough compared to cav.

[This message has been edited by Mark_Aurel (edited 06-06-2003 @ 12:22 PM).]

ColdWind2Valhala
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 12:43 PM EDT (US)     12 / 16       
"Infantry is better than you give it credit for, but still not good enough compared to cav."

Good Analysis of me, you are prob correct. However, Infantry need some more bonuses vs calvary, case closed.

Mark_Aurel, can you please answer one question for me.

Why do you think infantry get 1.0 and 1.1 bonus vs calvary while throwing axmen or axeman get 2x 3x or even 4x vs infantry, It throws of the Rock/Paper/Scissors concept. Am I wrong?

Newbe
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 01:40 PM EDT (US)     13 / 16       
Cheezewizz don't mean to be an arse but how could 4 dwarfs beat 5 cavalry? Cav have like well over 100 hitpoints.

5 Cav vs 5 Spears... and the cav wins.

What are they super dwarfs?


Spy_Lord
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 02:34 PM EDT (US)     14 / 16       
I agree with Mark that infantry are pretty good, EXCEPT for ulfs. At least hops and spears last pretty well against slings, tox (without meatshield) and most archers, as well as fairly good against unmassed tas. Ulfs however die to everything. Tox, slings, tas, axemen, hoplites, spears . . everything. This is the one infantry unit that should be made better, slightly.

I'm all for an increase in its pa, from the measly 5% to at least 10-15%. Then it might actually have a chance vs tox and slings after the first pierce upgrade.

Cheesewiz
HG Alumnus
posted 06 June 2003 04:06 PM EDT (US)     15 / 16       
no no no i had 14 dwarfs on that mine... and lots of gold..so i said screw it and had them fighting to defend them sleves while i was sacking his main base...get it?

Ex-Seraph Cheesewiz - Former WICH Webmaster, AOE3H Webmaster, & RTWH Staff, HeavenGames LLC
World_in_Conflict_Heaven || Age_of_Empires_III_Heaven || Support_HeavenGames || The_Playpen || Do_The_Right_Thing
Newbe
Mortal
posted 06 June 2003 08:27 PM EDT (US)     16 / 16       
got it
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