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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » I think ES should see the following tests about TA.
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Topic Subject:I think ES should see the following tests about TA.
magic
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 00:54 AM EDT (US)         
The test made by jwj44 has some interesting conclusions.
The link to the thread at MFO is the following:
http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readTopic.asp?PostingId=1537102&s=41&hdr=
AuthorReplies:
RoXsTaR
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 00:59 AM EDT (US)     1 / 31       
No its not, how come there are Norse civs in the top 20? people are always complaining about how underpowered TAs are but forget to take into acount that they are anti infantry and ranged. You cant expect TAs to beat archers, and if you play them right they will beat most infantry including Axemen, And Katapelts
Fwiffo del desierto
Mortal
(id: Fwiffo)
posted 28 January 2004 01:10 AM EDT (US)     2 / 31       
More importantly, jwj44 has a quote from Star Control II in his sig there

Everyone got AIDS and shit
RoXsTaR
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 01:22 AM EDT (US)     3 / 31       
I dont consider Salska to be the best Norse player out there. Tricks and stuff can get you into the top 20 but they woulnt win you any tournys. He has yet to come close to wining any major tournament.
Tordenskiold
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 07:06 AM EDT (US)     4 / 31       

Quote:

I dont consider Salska to be the best Norse player out there

He is certainly among the best but players like Fird, MOR_Romio, Olympus_MU and even Hope are just as good or maybe even better


TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

ESO: TORDENSKIOLD
Ekanta
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:03 AM EDT (US)     5 / 31       
the problem isnt that ta cant beat infantry, its that they beat them alot slower than other counter-infantry units. In the mean time the rest of the norse troops are dead. but I guess thats to difficult to understand for alot of folks.

Do ta beat infantry alot slower? Yes this is proven in the same post a few threads later on.

Matei
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:58 AM EDT (US)     6 / 31       
On the other hand, Toxotes also kill infantry a lot slower, and nobody worries about them. Furthermore Toxotes are a "soft" counter (no bonus damage).

Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
Tordenskiold
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 09:12 AM EDT (US)     7 / 31       
Yes, I think it would be interesting to see the same test with Toxotes and/or cheiros (pop wise)

TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

ESO: TORDENSKIOLD
ArmorPierce
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 09:23 AM EDT (US)     8 / 31       
Throwing axeman counters infantry better because Toxotes are soft counters.

ESO nick: NerVe_Pierce
Proud member of NerVe Clan
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
futurehermit
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 09:35 AM EDT (US)     9 / 31       
yeah i'd like to see these tests in question done with a meatshield, cost-effectively, and in comparison to other counter infantry like toxotes who were mysteriously left out of this analysis!

i still maintain that the best way to balance taxmen is to give them a different modifier vs different infantry units so that they 'do their job' well w/out being op'd vs certain infantry.

fh

Pascal9872
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 09:42 AM EDT (US)     10 / 31       
Toxotes and TA do counter infantry at about the same rate the one difference is that Toxotes own axeman and hypaspist and TA get owned by them.

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jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 10:14 AM EDT (US)     11 / 31       
Huffi-muffi-guffi, fwiffo!

The reason toxotes were left out is because they are a "soft" counter. TAs are the only infrantry counter that Norse get. Also, toxotes get countered by a lot less units than TAs.

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-28-2004 @ 10:19 AM).]

futurehermit
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 10:20 AM EDT (US)     12 / 31       
they may be a soft counter but they are important to the argument in question. hypaspists are a heroic unit for example so certain things must be considered. for example, at the time hypaspists are used they are generally at least medium, as are taxmen. does this change the results at all? plus, comparing hypaspists vs taxmen without a meatshield is not a fair example in the slightest and if hypaspists *didn't* own taxmen in this situation taxmen would be grossly overpowered.

fh

Tordenskiold
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 10:22 AM EDT (US)     13 / 31       

Quote:

TAs are the only infrantry counter that Norse get.

They also get ballista and some pretty good MU's like Trolls to deal with infantry.

All others also only get 1 infantry counter in classical.


TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

ESO: TORDENSKIOLD
FunClan_zero
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 12:47 PM EDT (US)     14 / 31       

Quote:

They also get ballista and some pretty good MU's like Trolls to deal with infantry.


Ballista is mythic age(and don't get multiplyers vs inf) and odin doesn't get trolls so it isn't fair.
Benjamin

Creator of the plenty article
Creator of the odin fast herioc guide
Creator of the The nereid guide
In progress: the scylla guide
futurehermit
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 01:14 PM EDT (US)     15 / 31       
ballista doesn't need a bonus mod vs infantry, it already does awesome against infantry.

fh

FunClan_zero
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 02:01 PM EDT (US)     16 / 31       

Quote:

ballista doesn't need a bonus mod vs infantry, it already does awesome against infantry.


Well, maybe you *don't* realise it, but i hardly use ballista, except as siege. The point is that ta must get better, because they do a poorly job. And no the point of you have still ballista and trolls don't make ta's balanced(besides odin doesn't even get trolls).
Benjamin

Creator of the plenty article
Creator of the odin fast herioc guide
Creator of the The nereid guide
In progress: the scylla guide
magic
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 02:07 PM EDT (US)     17 / 31       

Quote:

They also get ballista and some pretty good MU's like Trolls to deal with infantry.

So you are saying that if I wanted to play Odin then I am screwed? That is like saying it wouldnīt matter if toxotes sucked because greeks get centaurs. An needing ballista to counter infantry doesnīt make any sense at all. Sure I will just tell the other guy to let me get to mythic first and then we can continue to play.

[This message has been edited by magic (edited 01-28-2004 @ 02:07 PM).]

futurehermit
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 02:11 PM EDT (US)     18 / 31       
no one is saying the taxmen should suck because trolls and ballista are available, so stop exaggerating what is said.

it is merely being pointed out that trolls and ballista are quite underutilized against infantry-heavy armies.

fh

Shifteh
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 02:12 PM EDT (US)     19 / 31       
I think he's saying that Warcraft 2 style unit system is a bad idea. Having each side have a unit that counters 'x' that is the same as the other sides unit that counters 'x' leads to a bunch of civ's that are the same in use, yet different in animation.
magic
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 02:21 PM EDT (US)     20 / 31       

Quote:

it is merely being pointed out that trolls and ballista are quite underutilized against infantry-heavy armies


Ok but then donīt say later on I should rely on ballista to counter infantry in mythic age or trolls to do it in classical.
Shifteh
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 02:24 PM EDT (US)     21 / 31       
Would you rather they beef TA's so you can rely on them instead?
Tyr_of_Asgard
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 03:43 PM EDT (US)     22 / 31       
futurehermit;

there's absolutely no reason to compare Tox to TA

1: Tox are a soft(use against)counter. TA on the other hand are a hard(only good for)counter.

2: Greeks get a second unit to pick for countering infantry and now that unit can also be used as a soft counter vs TA. argue this if you like but i believe TA had more ways of being countered then any other single troop in the game before they were nerfed. if not then surly they do now.

the are only two things TA and Tox have in common.

1: range! Ta have 9 and Tox 15, that certainly makes Tox more versatile.

2:neither of them fits just their intended rolls when massed. i've seen Tox wipe out cav if used just so.

TA are a unique troop. that i would imagine makes them more difficult to balance then others.

to conclude, TA are the only choice for the Norse as a counter infantry. they are countered by a ton of different troops. they should not be compared to Tox. and most importantly, the numbers speak for themselves. ES knows this as well as most people who read the numbers. why ES did nothing about it is their own.

FunClan_zero
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 04:01 PM EDT (US)     23 / 31       
Yes, that's the whole point of this thread. Why don't deserve norse a proper inf counter? Anti norse people only use stats to tell that we shouldn't complain about it, because some people(only 2) reach the top 25. Well, here is something to think about: MAYBE THOSE PEEPS WHO STILL PLAYS ON EXPERT LEVEL WITH NORSE MIGHT HAVE MORE SKILL THEN ALL THOSE KRONOS/ORANOS/ISIS WH0RES WHO ARE FLOODING THE TOP NOW( except 3 peeps maybe) INSTEAD TO FLAME US AND SAYS THAT WE ARE UBER NOOBS, YOU BETTER USE SOME REAL PROVES WHY TA ARE *FINE*.
Benjamin

Creator of the plenty article
Creator of the odin fast herioc guide
Creator of the The nereid guide
In progress: the scylla guide
BSR
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 05:04 PM EDT (US)     24 / 31       
Don't TAs get countered rather severely by archers (Tox), anti-archers (Sling), AND anti-infantry (Hyp, Axe)?

I always liked TAs, but I remember noticing that Axemen shredded them, and it didn't seem fair that they were vulnerable to both ranged anti-archery and close anti-infantry. Maybe back when they were stronger, but now?

/just saying

magic
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:54 PM EDT (US)     25 / 31       

Quote:

Don't TAs get countered rather severely by archers (Tox), anti-archers (Sling), AND anti-infantry (Hyp, Axe)?


Donīt forget cavalry counters them also

[This message has been edited by magic (edited 01-28-2004 @ 08:54 PM).]

Shifteh
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 09:14 PM EDT (US)     26 / 31       
"2:neither of them fits just their intended rolls when massed. i've seen Tox wipe out cav if used just so."

I was under the impression that massed archers, throughout history, have annihilated cavalry. Isn't that why the British used the longbow to such devastating effect against the French knights? Or are you referring to intended in-game balance? Just trying to clear it up.

Personally, I think TA's need a slight beefing - they don't really counter anything.

jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 09:39 PM EDT (US)     27 / 31       
Actually, TAs do better against cavs than most archers, though they still get countered. But TAs definitely have too many counters.
Cicero_
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 09:41 PM EDT (US)     28 / 31       
I would just like to point out the Greeks have 2 infantry counters in classical for norse, hippikons, and toxotes. Actually 1 hippikon slaughters 2 ulfsarks.

Cicero_
The great numbers in which you are here met this day, O Romans, and this assembly, greater than, it seems to me, I ever remember, inspires me with both an exceeding eagerness to defend the republic and with a great hope of relenquishing it.
-Cicero's Fourth Philippic [106 B.C.-43 B.C.]
Shiva
HG Alumnus
posted 28 January 2004 09:55 PM EDT (US)     29 / 31       
No kidding. Ulfs are cheap and made in 9 seconds. Hippikon are made in 24(?) seconds, cost a fair amount and being Greek, don't suck.

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jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 10:03 PM EDT (US)     30 / 31       
I think ulfs are fine - pop effectively, they actually do better vs. hips than spearmen. +5 HP maybe, but they really don't need that much help. They don't even get slaughtered by archers as badly as some people say.

Every civ has 2 ways to counter TAs in classical (Atties have three!). That, combined with the fact that they don't really slaughter the units they do counter, is the core of the problem. Well, that and fanatics and hypaspists.

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-28-2004 @ 10:09 PM).]

magic
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 11:20 PM EDT (US)     31 / 31       

Quote:

No kidding. Ulfs are cheap and made in 9 seconds. Hippikon are made in 24(?) seconds, cost a fair amount and being Greek, don't suck


Actually hippikons train in 20 seconds only 2 more than RC.
That is in classical age of course, in heroic hipps train in 15 seconds , that is 3 seconds faster than RC.
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