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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Tested: Infantry VS Turma
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Topic Subject:Tested: Infantry VS Turma
SJB
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 04:17 PM EDT (US)         
Hoplite; Murmillo has 80% HP left fighting Turma 1 on 1
Ul has 70%HP left
Opps, forgot to test spearman!
TA still die like fook while facing Turma!
Thus, my Norse brothers, Ulfasark is A MUST in classical! Just like what ES has intended to be [In-game manual said: Ulfsark SHOULD BE the backbone of Norse.]

Changes to Loki & Thor Players:
101% FOR SURE to pick Forseti in classic!
Classic Army should be mainly composed of Hersirs and Ulfsarks. A few RC for raiding only!
The speed up of Hersirs from Hall of Thanes is critical to outrace Turma and dodge the Cheiroballista!
PLUS
Hersirs don't die like fook to Cheiroballista anyway!
Cheiroballista deals 250% damage to general infantry but only 150% to Hersirs.

Mithrl Breastplate makes Ulfsarks stand better against Murmillo and Katapeltes.

Changes to Odin Players:
Switch to either Loki or Thor, period Full Stop
Because the MAJOR civ bonus of Odin lies in Hill Fort While
Turma simply OWNS TA and Kata Eats RC for breakfast!
Since your classical army will be mainly Hersirs + Ulfsarks, why not choose Loki or Thor?

A fast heroic? NOT WAY!
Cheiroballista deals 450% damage to Huskarl and Kata Eats Jarl for Lunch!

A fast Mythic? SORRY!
Losing in both classics and Heroic there will be no Mythic!

Odin is offically dead! Same to SET!

TA has become a Mythic unit vs Atties:
When Atties use Fanatic and Cheiroballista combo, then TA and Ballista is valuable!
TA vs Fanatic while Ballista snipe Cheiroballista!

Conclusion:
Stop Crying about TA and Don't make TA until Mythic!

AuthorReplies:
jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 04:20 PM EDT (US)     1 / 33       
I hope you're joking, cause this blowing the whole thing out of proportion. Just because turmas are now ONLY good against archers as the in-game help says doesn't make Odin obsolete and doesn't make Forseti a must-have.

EDIT: Okay, after re-reading it, I'm sure that you're jokinig.

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-28-2004 @ 04:20 PM).]

Matei
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 04:27 PM EDT (US)     2 / 33       
Why are you saying to make some RC's only for raiding, when RC is what owns Chieroballistas? I'd say an RC+Ulfsark combo makes more sense than Hersir+Ulfsark. If you don't mix RC, you will be beat by pure Chierroballistas, they'll just reach critical mass and your units won't be able to get near them.

Also, in Heroic you can use Huskarls to great effect, because the *only* Atlantean unit that counters them is the Chierroballista, and you can deal with that using cavalry. Unlike Ulfsarks, Huskarls don't mind a bit about archers, and being infantry they can hold their own against other infantry or cavalry.


Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
futurehermit
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 04:30 PM EDT (US)     3 / 33       
rc beat both turma and cheiro so if that is what you're seeing mass rc.

in heroic husk-rc is a great combo vs atln. flank with rc while fighting head-on with husk. jarl taxmen is also ok.

turma are not, i repeat are not, the problem of atln vs norse. it's kata-cheiro that is so hard for norse to deal with in classical.

rc > turma.

fh

Zorn_Ot
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 04:34 PM EDT (US)     4 / 33       
ROFL, i love it when people say not to use Huskarls because Chieros eat them up. Its like saying dont make infantry vs Eggy because they have Axemen.

Huskarls rock every Atlantean unit except Fanatics and tons of Chieros yes, but if you have enough Cheiros to stop a Huskarl army, you have no way to stop some Rc from taking out the Cheiros, cause all your pop is in Cheiros. Remember no OP Promethean meatshields anymore, less valored Turmas to take out Valkyries (which do great vs Atl)

There is more to game balance than one unit beating another.

Im seriously going to test Cheiros vs Massed Huskarls, ive never seen anyone do a real test, everyone just assumes they win because of the big bonus. Huskarls are pretty fast, and Cheiros arent that accurate vs a moving target.


ESO: Orion_Zorn

Proud Member of the Orion Clan!

"makes sense because if your running a race against a monkey and you die from a heart attack i don't think it should be a draw. the monkey actaully wins by default" - Sirgrayhorn

SJB
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 06:04 PM EDT (US)     5 / 33       
Okay, please clam down before this turns into a flame post!
I know it is hard to accept the fact that Odin is dead just like SET!

Since we have both agreed that Ulfsark is a must, I just compare Hersirs to RC. Too bad Hersirs + RC is not viable in the critical 4:00 minute-8 minute because they both take too long to produce. Loki perference on Hersirs is not a doubt, what about Thor?

Hersirs > RC in Classics

Reason 1.
Hersirs can stand well against all atties units in terms of both cost and pop~ Murmillo; Kata; Turma and Cheiroballista.
While
RC dies ridiculously to Kata and Murmillo 1 on 1
RCs simply have to retreat when the Kata/Murmillo turn back.
The toughest combo of atties is Kata + Cheiro + Promies!
Turma spammers are 1700 noobs!

Reason 2.
If they don't spam promies, guess what they will spam? Automaton!

Reason 3.
You can keep making Hersirs from Temple (If they didn't deconstruct it -,-) before setting up the second/thrid rax!
Thus, given the same amount of Raxs at any time, you have more units to fight.

Reason 4.
Hersirs can build! You have more units to fight while building houses/rax/Armory.

Forseti > others
Forseti upgrade both Hersirs and Ulfsarks + Troll costs wood instead of Gold or Food. Either Hersir+Ulfsark or RC+Ulfsark use a lot of Gold and Food.

P.S You still see Norse in the Top 25 chart before this patch because they used to play as Norse BEFORE ES nerfing Norse like hell. Most top Norse experts have switched to Isis; Kronos; Oranos. You can tell by the declining % of usage of Norse of the top players from time to time.

The potential toughest rival will be Gaia (Isis in a new cloth ^.^); perhaps Greeks and RA.

Good Luck to All Norse!

Etendorf
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 06:39 PM EDT (US)     6 / 33       
AAAAAAA, I refuse to read this, this is hurting the mind.
What are you trying to do? You must be joking!
450% versus huskarl? Please, I really mean Please! don't put stuff like this up without saying your joking!

You are joking right?


Nick: Eten.
Gods: All of them!
Vanilla.
jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 06:49 PM EDT (US)     7 / 33       
This is so stupid. You really think that just because ulfs are a little better, Odin, Freyja, and Heimdall are obsolete? And nobody suggested Hersirs and RC - Matei said ulfs and rc, which is both cheaper and comes out faster.

Quote:

Hersirs can stand well against all atties units in terms of both cost and pop~ Murmillo; Kata; Turma and Cheiroballista.
While
RC dies ridiculously to Kata and Murmillo 1 on 1
RCs simply have to retreat when the Kata/Murmillo turn back.
The toughest combo of atties is Kata + Cheiro + Promies!
Turma spammers are 1700 noobs!


You really don't know what you're talking about. Pop effectively, hersirs lose to cheiros, murmillos, and katas! I just tested it in the editor! And yes, these were classical age hersirs.

Only morons make more than a few hersirs as Odin or Thor. Everyone knows that Norse have the worst heroes.

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-28-2004 @ 07:00 PM).]

Shifteh
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 06:54 PM EDT (US)     8 / 33       
I think I understood half of what he's saying. "Not way?" Man... and people had trouble with my post.
IaM_MeTH_
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 07:00 PM EDT (US)     9 / 33       
I agree one thing here Odin is dead...
and i laugh at huskarl own every atl unit excepts chiero and fanatic this is the most ridiculous thing i've read in any topic they die to contarius kalat and murm's ( btw they shouldn't die to chiero...ES just making fun of norse players) and why didn't they boosted TA i'll never understand i think....
deano3985
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 07:44 PM EDT (US)     10 / 33       

Quote:

I agree one thing here Odin is dead...
and i laugh at huskarl own every atl unit excepts chiero and fanatic this is the most ridiculous thing i've read in any topic they die to contarius kalat and murm's ( btw they shouldn't die to chiero...ES just making fun of norse players) and why didn't they boosted TA i'll never understand i think....

After reading this I decided to do some tests in editor. And my Conclusion is as follows:

WOW.......

Husks get owned hard by Murmillos, not even a close fight. Chieros seriously own Husks like theres no tomorrow.... in half the numbers, which is pop wise. Yes so that mean for every 2 Huskarls I have, 1 Chiero will kill them both. I did 10 Husks vs 5 Chieros, and there were 3 chieros left....

Katapeltes, in a 10 v 10 against husks, I had 2 husks left. Well considering Huskarls are a generic unit and Katapeltes are a hard counter, those Katapeltes did overpoweringly good. However, Contarius only beat Husks in equal numbers, in a 2:3 ration the Husks will slap them hard.

Cyclops
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 07:57 PM EDT (US)     11 / 33       
Quotes from SJB

Quote:

Kata Eats RC for breakfast!

Quote:

Kata Eats Jarl for Lunch!

Then what does the Kata eat for dinner, lol
Odin is dead, we must move along


Whoever reads what I said above should disregard whatever I said, because I probably don't know what im talking about.
jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:28 PM EDT (US)     12 / 33       
I disagree about Odin being dead. His jarls and husks are still awesome. Sure, katapeltes are a problem, but Atlanteans in general are broken. The ravens are very useful, and his hunting bonus rox.

BTW, I don't really think it's that big a problem that cheiros beat huskarls - it's the atlantean infrantry hard counter after all.

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-28-2004 @ 08:42 PM).]

Athen
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:37 PM EDT (US)     13 / 33       
Wow. You people are ignorant!

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Formally known as Acamas, Acamas_Samaca and Hero_Acamas
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Jet_Set_Jim
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:41 PM EDT (US)     14 / 33       
Odin's okay.

Unless you're playing against Attie; Chieros and Katas... or Egypt; Axemen & a few spears... or Greek; Hop/Hyp/Tox... or Loki; Hersir rush...

But against Thor, he's okay.

At least with the ravens, you can scout the enemy's villies so you know where you would raid if you had any troops left.

jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:44 PM EDT (US)     15 / 33       
With the exception of Loki, all the combos you mentioned are a problem for all Norse because of TA suckage. Sure, TAs need help, but that's just as big a problem for Odin as it is for Loki and Thor (actually, it's even worse a problem for Loki because he doesn't get Skadi).

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-28-2004 @ 08:46 PM).]

Jet_Set_Jim
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:48 PM EDT (US)     16 / 33       

Quote:

how does axers/spears or hops/hips/tox really own him any more than it owns the rest of the Norse? Sure, TAs need help, but that's just as big a problem for Odin as it is for Loki and Thor

The fact that these combos are equally as difficult for Loki and Thor to counter is hardly any compensation for Odin.

Let's face it, the poor one-eyed bastard is brown bread.

Don't get me wrong though - I don't mind there being weaker civs... I'm just happy that they seem to rotate the stronger ones. A bit of variation - lovely!

jwj442
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:50 PM EDT (US)     17 / 33       
I still don't see how Odin is so much worse than the other Norse. He's definitely my favorite. Loki's great fun and has a powerful rush, but he's not that reliable, especially in team games. If his early rush fizzles, then he's much weaker late game than the other two. And I just don't like Thor.

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-28-2004 @ 08:59 PM).]

Jet_Set_Jim
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 08:55 PM EDT (US)     18 / 33       

Quote:

I still don't see how Odin is so much worse than the other Norse.

Isn't it obvious? He's only got one eye!

Okay I could string together an argument supporting Odin being the worse Norse god, but you may well be right compared to Thor. But Loki's still got his rush...

Anyway, I've suddenly remembered that I'm English and it's therefore 2am so I'm off to bed.

Think I might try a regime of lamer tower pushing tomorrow... see if I can get Odin some of his bad-ass cred back...

Matei
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 10:45 PM EDT (US)     19 / 33       
I tried a few tests, these aren't too rigourous but some of the results are interesting:

1) 16 Odin Huskarls vs 8 Chieroballista. The Huskarls usually win with 3-4 remaining. This is with no micro - in a real game, the Huskarl player would try to gang up on ballistas and take them down one by one instead of letting 2-3 units attack each ballista.

2) Odin Huskarl vs Murmillo. The Murmillo wins with 6 HP left (out of 110). This is because the Murmillo has higher hack armor than the Huskarl - 34% vs 15%. Otherwise, both have 8 attack, and the Odin Huskarl has 138 HP compared to the Murmillo's 110. It looks like getting hack armor is crucial for making Huskarls work well against non-archer units.

3) Odin Huskarl vs Katapeltes. Huskarl wins with about 24 HP. This is because the Katapeltes is a counter unit so it has low attack, even though it has more hack armor than a Huskarl. This result is sort of fair considering that a Katapeltes costs 60 food I guess.

4) Classical-age Ulfsark vs Murmillo and Katapeltes. The Ulfsark loses. Similar reason to above, it needs more hack armor. I guess Mithril Breastplate will be something to try to get early vs Atlantean.

5) 20 Throwing Axemen vs 20 Murmillos. The TA's win, with between 2 and 10 remaining. It depends a lot on the position of the units - if you have the TA's in a loose or wide formation, then they just get ganged up, but if you clump them together or make a "wedge" pointing toward the enemy or back them against a forest, they do much better. Also, this is with no micro - in a real game you can tell groups of TA's to attack the same murmillo, or back up against a wall, or whatever.

The other thing Norse should try vs Atlantean is Valkyries. I've seen quite a few people do well with these, since they have high pierce armor so they aren't bothered much by Turma Heroes, and the infantry heroes are too slow to be a problem.


Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.

[This message has been edited by Matei (edited 01-28-2004 @ 10:47 PM).]

Spook
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 06:59 AM EDT (US)     20 / 33       
I think we are forgetting that Huskarls are a hard counter themselves. Sure they cost loads of res but if the argument holds true about kats shouldnt stand up to everything then huskarls shouldnt either. I think the real problem with norse is that their hard counter units were good enough to be very generic in Vanilla ie you could use ta against almost all units and husks against almost all units. This meant a norse player never had to micro his army except maybe for ta (focus fire). I believe that norse players (certainly in the region where most of you on this board play 1750- (approx)) have forgetten how to micro (or never learnt) and now you one unit armies and generic hard counter units are dying you are all crying nerf nerf without thinking of other ways to defeat your opponent.
deano3985
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 08:41 AM EDT (US)     21 / 33       
Spook, Huskarls and Katas are both Hard counters, but Huskarls are a generic unit and Katapeltes are non-generic. Just because a unit gets a bonus vs another unit doesn't mean it's only purpose is to counter that unit, however, when a unit has 5 attack or less, and has a ridiculous bonus, like 3x or 4x, then usually that's implying that it's purpose is to counter only that type. Huskarls have 8 attack and 2x vs archers, these are obviously a more generic unit. They are meant to do well vs many units for a reason. It always them to beat Combos like Hippikon/Tox because they fair a little bit better vs a meatshield. Also compare the damage they do to archers compared to what other hard counters do. Huskarls do 16 damage to archers, Hypaspists do 21 damage to Infantry. That's quite a large difference.
Digital_Assasin
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 08:51 AM EDT (US)     22 / 33       
Well said Spook.
This thread is hilarious. Odin Dead?? he still has the highest win% of all the norse. For all the complaining this is the most balance AOM has ever been. The ONLY thing that needs changing is Set animals need to have the same HP and attack after they were converted or at the least dont make the reduction so steep in terms of HP and attack and reduced conversion time by about 4 secs.
jwj442
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 09:00 AM EDT (US)     23 / 33       
Spook, the main problem is that TAs don't counter units they should counter. You could not use TAs and husks against almost all units, that statement shows how little you know about Norse! And the Norse have always required just as much micro as the other civs, if not more because microing raids is tricky. BTW Deano, I think huskarls are fine. They're great units. They slaughter archers, and do okay against inf and cav. The Norse hillfort really doesn't need boosting, except maybe giving the rams some of their speed back.

This is not the most balanced the game has ever been. Set and Norse (mainly TA effectiveness and raider train time) both need a boost, and Atlantean economy is still ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 01-29-2004 @ 09:06 AM).]

deano3985
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 10:03 AM EDT (US)     24 / 33       
jwj: I never said Huskarls weren't fine. I said that Katapeltes do too well vs units they don't counter. And then Spook argued that if Katapeltes should lose to everything but cavalry then Huskarls should lose to all but Archers. I was simplying pointing out that Huskarls are generic units and are meant to be decent vs all units in general, except for counter-infantry.
jwj442
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 10:28 AM EDT (US)     25 / 33       
Okay, I agree with you there. I think Katas should lose another 5 HP.
SJB
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 11:40 AM EDT (US)     26 / 33       
Quotes from Cyclops:
------------------------------------------
Then what does the Kata eat for dinner, lol
Odin is dead, we must move along
-------------------------------------------
Reply:
Kata Eats Portable Rams for dinner!
A nice and happy day for Kata!

Seriously, Kata has the same HA/PA/CA/Speed & +10HP & *300% Bonus Damage to Calvary & *250% Siege compared to Murmillo before patch! The only downside is -3 Hack Damage when fighting Infantry/Archer/Hero/MU in the cost of extra 5G+5F. Kata, in this sense, is more "generic" (safer to mass when you don't know your oppenent is producing) along with Cheiro and turma than Murmillo in classical!

Spook
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 12:22 PM EDT (US)     27 / 33       
Set is fine in fact he is really strong especially vs atlanteans. The reason why he isnt used much is because he requires really good micro so anyone under 1800 cant use him well and there is currently no reason to choose him over Ra/Isis.

Ta are fine I play Random so yes I do play norse about 1 in 4 games . The only real problem with norse is no real ranged seige (I count ballista as mainly an infantry counter) and the inability to build titans without sacrificing econ (Rag or converting ulfs)

Quote:

You could not use TAs and husks against almost all units, that statement shows how little you know about Norse

First time I reached 1850+ in vanilla was with norse. And all you had to do was spam ta or jarl or raider depending on which patch. Finally the game is a state where 1 unit armies dont cut it for norse you have to use other means.

Quote:


jwj: I never said Huskarls weren't fine. I said that Katapeltes do too well vs units they don't counter. And then Spook argued that if Katapeltes should lose to everything but cavalry then Huskarls should lose to all but Archers. I was simplying pointing out that Huskarls are generic units and are meant to be decent vs all units in general, except for counter-infantry.

And Im asking why the same rules cant be applies to Kats. They are hard counters yes but do well vs all other units so they are a generic hard counter same as huskarls. You cant have it both ways. If it was intended that Kats die to all units except cav they would have got more of a nerf than -5hp.

[This message has been edited by Spook (edited 01-29-2004 @ 12:23 PM).]

jwj442
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 01:55 PM EDT (US)     28 / 33       
Odin's jarls were overpowered, I'll give you that. But one-unit TA armies died miserably to archers and anti-archers, and all huskarl armies got killed by hyps and axemen.
Lord_Cyrus
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 02:47 PM EDT (US)     29 / 33       
I thinbk RC+ulfs will be a very good combo vrs Atty. Ulfs can destroy turma and easily beat kats while you micro your RC into the Cheiroballistas.

Lord Cyrus
SaveFerris
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 05:10 PM EDT (US)     30 / 33       

I dont see how ulf getting boost means heimdall is dead. Einherjars are classic siege. They own. Period.

Moreover, tower laming is good vs atlanteans, b/c so many of them only build counter rax units, which have low base attacks, which makes them susceptible to tower laming. Heimdall gives you safeguard. Which owns atlanteans. Period.

Spook
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 06:01 PM EDT (US)     31 / 33       

Quote:

Odin's jarls were overpowered, I'll give you that. But one-unit TA armies died miserably to archers and anti-archers, and all huskarl armies got killed by hyps and axemen.

Pre Patch 1.02 almost pure Ta Armies was commonplace. After the patch pure RC was common place (both before heroic).

L_Clan_Justin
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 10:39 PM EDT (US)     32 / 33       
this thread is total garbage, learn micro
Vassilis
Mortal
posted 30 January 2004 05:25 AM EDT (US)     33 / 33       
Set doesn't need a boost. His animals could kill anything in classical and they were basicaly free. He has stronger slingers, CA and slings train faster, cheaper migdols, these were supposed to be his real bonus not uncounterable animals.

Set is not that micro intence as you say either. You can just hold down shift, click on each animal and the priest will convert them all 1 after the other. The hyena scouts with waypoints too. Plus you can steal your opponents food and beat him with it so he is forced to farm earlier!

The norse players always massed 1 unit armies, now they can't so they will have to adapt in using more than that. Most have adapted otherwise norse wouldn't have 50%+ win rates. And I don't care what your experts say, cause they look at little details that don't make a difference in our play.

The only people who whine about set/norse (and now isis) are the few players who just suck without an OP civ.

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