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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Should Turma belong to Cavalry?
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Topic Subject:Should Turma belong to Cavalry?
a192
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 00:13 AM EDT (US)         
Why? It really doesn't make sense that infantry get bonus vs anti-archers. Then should infanrty get bonus vs sling? lol...how about switch Turma to Cavalry? Then it is make sense that Atlantean get free medium archer upgrade. (No archers in Classical for Atlantean) Up to now, I still don't understand why ES give free medium archer upgrade for Atlantean. Do you guy know any reason behind that? What do you think if turma belong to Cavalry?
AuthorReplies:
Pug
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 01:28 AM EDT (US)     1 / 17       
its the fact that they deal out pierce attack. Pierce attack units are archers. IF they were calvary atlanteans would be able to take out buildings. Could you imagine if Kronos ts two counter barracks and had the ability to destroy your tc before 6 min? Plus since calvary cost food and gold, the atls would actually have a better econ cause they could get by with 1 on wood for quite some time.

R.I.P Shiva
Teddy_Horse
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 04:52 AM EDT (US)     2 / 17       
They are supposed to be counter units to archers. It means they have to die to anything else.
This way it makes no sense if they are cavs or archers. Furthermore if they would be cavs, then greeks with prodromos would take out them in no time and in heroic they would have two different cavalary unit.
Also the slingers would die to them, not mentioning the greek counter-archer (uhh, what is the name, help me out).

This stupid turma is one of the worst unit in the game. They are "all or nothing" units and I really hate them. They make the game one-sided.

In the next expansion there will be taxmen on camels. And the siege unit will be a damn 99% pierce bird with 30 crush damage. Just to outbalance atties. And they will cost 20 gold and 1 favor and consume 1 pop. Build time: 5 seconds.
You will be able to build TCs in archaic, castles in classic.


My computer beats me in chess. But I am much better in kick-box...
GREEN CERTIFICATE: this message contains recycling electrons

[This message has been edited by Teddy_Horse (edited 02-12-2004 @ 04:55 AM).]

Ed_the_Sock
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 07:08 AM EDT (US)     3 / 17       
Peltast

If u look at the tech sheet, it says they are both Cav and archer........it does

Click Atlantean, then Cav then archers

omg Turma's are in both.

Treat them as an archer with high pierce armor.

Slingers own them........+200% to hero Turma's

NIB
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 08:09 AM EDT (US)     4 / 17       

Quote:

omg Turma's are in both.

No they are archers. Dont confuse the ppl.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

SirGrayhorn
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 10:13 AM EDT (US)     5 / 17       
they are archers on horses. so yeah infantry should counter them HARD with minimum casualties. but then again they are an atlantean unit, so they are supposed to be a bit tougher than regular units.

But just as the smoke cleared, a red cloak of silk burnt and battle worn blew past the fire, and from the buring embers of the catapault Sir Grayhorn emerged, Jalmal's Bain still strongly grasped in his right hand and his kite shield lined with steel pierced with arrows held high in his left. The hero had endured.
Ed_the_Sock
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 02:45 PM EDT (US)     6 / 17       
sorry NIB not confusing people, maybe u should actually look, instead of saying "NO"

cause its right there infront of you, take a second and look
or that to much for you, as u must think whatever u say is right?

All i'm saying is what the makers of the game says, and that answers the question at hand.

do I:

A: go by what the makers of the game says?
B: listen to someone who can't read?

NIB
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 04:01 PM EDT (US)     7 / 17       

Quote:

All i'm saying is what the makers of the game says, and that answers the question at hand.

do I:

A: go by what the makers of the game says?
B: listen to someone who can't read?

Go by what the manual(or the in game menus) say? That manuel that was written by some1 who probably have no idea about the game? Or go by the actual xml code which clearly states that turmas are archers? Whatever you want.

*EDITED*

Here is the proof that turmas are archers and not cavalry.

- <unit id="716" name="Javelin Cavalry">
<dbid>2687</dbid>
<displaynameid>23040</displaynameid>
<footprint>Footprint Cavalry</footprint>
<icon>cavalry x jav cav icons 32</icon>
<containedattack>0.1000</containedattack>
<initialhitpoints>80.0000</initialhitpoints>
<maxhitpoints>80.0000</maxhitpoints>
<los>18.0000</los>
<portraiticon>cavalry x jav cav icons 64</portraiticon>
<obstructionradiusx>0.4900</obstructionradiusx>
<obstructionradiusz>0.4900</obstructionradiusz>
<soundvariant>Pierce</soundvariant>
<ballisticsplashproto>Splash</ballisticsplashproto& gt;
<ballisticbounceproto>Dust Medium</ballisticbounceproto>
<formationcategory>Ranged</formationcategory>
<maxvelocity>5.0000</maxvelocity>
<movementtype>land</movementtype>
<turnrate>18.0000</turnrate>
<projectileprotounit>Javelin Flaming</projectileprotounit>
<unitaitype>RangedCombative</unitaitype>
<populationcount>2</populationcount>
<trainpoints>14.0000</trainpoints>
<allowedage>2</allowedage>
<cost resourcetype="Wood">50.0000</cost>
<cost resourcetype="Gold">45.0000</cost>
<bounty resourcetype="Favor">1.0800</bounty>
<bountyfactor resourcetype="Favor">1.0000</bountyfactor>
<rollovertextid>23039</rollovertextid>
<rolloverbonusdamageid>23041</rolloverbonusdamageid >
<rolloveruseagainstid>23042</rolloveruseagainstid&g t;
<rollovercounterwithid>23043</rollovercounterwithid >
<rolloverupgradeatid>23044</rolloverupgradeatid>
<armor damagetype="Hack" percentflag="1">0.05</armor>
<armor damagetype="Pierce" percentflag="1">0.30</armor>
<armor damagetype="Crush" percentflag="1">0.99</armor>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidTremorAttack</unittype> ;
<unittype>LogicalTypeVolcanoAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeSuperPredatorsAutoAttack</unit type>
<unittype>LogicalTypeCanBeHealed</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeAffectedByRestoration</unittyp e>
<unittype>LogicalTypeAffectedByVortex</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidTraitorsTarget</unittype& gt;
<unittype>LogicalTypeMilitaryUnitsAndBuildings</uni ttype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeParticipatesInBattlecries</uni ttype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeTornadoAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeScreamsOnSpiderPull</unittype& gt;
<unittype>LogicalTypeSuperPredatorsAttack</unittype >
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidFlamingWeaponsTarget</uni ttype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeConvertsHerds</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeMummyMinionTarget</unittype> ;
<unittype>LogicalTypeCanBeThrown</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidBoltTarget</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeFimbulWinterTCEvalType</unitty pe>
<unittype>LogicalTypeEarthquakeAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeFavoriteUnit</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidSpyTarget</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidShiftingSandsTarget</unit type>
<unittype>LogicalTypeCavalryAndScout</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypePredatorsAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeEscapesFrostOnTransform</unitt ype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidSpiderTarget</unittype> ;
<unittype>LogicalTypeNeededForVictory</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeHandUnitsAutoAttack</unittype& gt;
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidFrostTarget</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeCanBeStoned</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeLandMilitary</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeImplodeAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeAffectedByFrostGiant</unittype >
<unittype>LogicalTypeAffectedByChaos</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidSPCUnitsDeadCondition</un ittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeAffectedByHealingSpring</unitt ype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeUnitsNotBuildings</unittype> ;
<unittype>LogicalTypeRangedUnitsAutoAttack</unittyp e>
<unittype>LogicalTypeVillagersAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeHandUnitsAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeRangedUnitsAttack</unittype> ;
<unittype>LogicalTypeTartarianGateValidOverlapPlacemen t</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeGarrisonOnBoats</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidForestFireTarget</unittyp e>
<unittype>LogicalTypeSeaSerpentAttack</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeValidMeteorTarget</unittype> ;
<unittype>LogicalTypeMinimapFilterMilitary</unittyp e>
<unittype>LogicalTypeNonGreekUnit</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeAffectedByHeroize</unittype> ;
<unittype>LogicalTypeOdinRegenerates</unittype>
<unittype>LogicalTypeIdleMilitary</unittype>

<unittype>AbstractArcher</unittype>
<unittype>Unit</unittype>
<unittype>UnitClass</unittype>
<unittype>Military</unittype>
<unittype>HumanSoldier</unittype>
<flag>ShowGarrisonButton</flag>
<flag>CollidesWithProjectiles</flag>
<flag>ObscuredByUnits</flag>
<flag>DontRotateObstruction</flag>
<flag>ApplyHandicapTraining</flag>
<flag>CorpseDecays</flag>
<flag>Tracked</flag>
<command>Work</command>
- <action name="RangedAttack">
<param name="MaximumRange" value1="12" />
<param name="Damage" type="Pierce" value1="4" />
<param name="DamageBonus" type="AbstractArcher" value1="4" />
<param name="DamageBonus" type="Throwing Axeman" value1="2" />
<param name="Accuracy" value1="0.8" />
<param name="AttackAction" />
<param name="AccuracyReductionFactor" value1="1.5" />
<param name="AimBonus" value1="20" />
<param name="SpreadFactor" value1="0.25" />
<param name="MaxSpread" value1="5.0" />
<param name="TrackRating" value1="5.0" />
<param name="UnintentionalDamageMultiplier" value1="0.5" />
<param name="HeightBonusMultiplier" value1="1.25" />
<param name="Rate" type="All" value1="1.0" />
<param name="DamageBonus" type="Javelin Cavalry Hero" value1="4" />
<param name="DamageBonus" type="Archer Atlantean Hero" value1="4" />
</action>
</unit>

PS ES calls turmas javelin cavalry inside the game files.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

[This message has been edited by NIB (edited 02-12-2004 @ 06:39 PM).]

IamDominique
Mortal
posted 12 February 2004 09:26 PM EDT (US)     8 / 17       
Turma is a counter-archer archer, sort of like slinger and peltast - which of course both own turma.
Hells Polo Team
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 01:22 AM EDT (US)     9 / 17       

Quote:

In the next expansion there will be taxmen on camels.


Those were already in AoK. Mamelukes, the Saracen unique unit. Well, they were anti-cav. But it's the same idea

One day, I was sitting in the park wondering why the frisbee was getting bigger. And then it hit me...
ESO: NoFx__Genesis, HellsPoloTeam, DeathByAutopsy

[This message has been edited by Hells Polo Team (edited 02-13-2004 @ 01:23 AM).]

a192
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 01:44 AM EDT (US)     10 / 17       
They are supposed to be countered by anti-archers. (turma's info stated that they are countered by sling) But actually, turma eat sling 1 vs 1. If spearman get bonus on them because they are javelin cavalry, then axeman should get bonus vs sling because they are infantry-archer.
Another question is why Crenellations upgrade on tower do not affect on turma..they are javelin cavalry..
NIB
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 05:26 AM EDT (US)     11 / 17       

Quote:

Turma is a counter-archer archer, sort of like slinger and peltast - which of course both own turma.

Actually all 3 own each other(cause they all get a bonus against each other). So it all comes down to which has higher bonus and better stats. And peltasts usually win all 3 cause of higher multiplier.

Seriously are you ppl dyslectic or something? The type of turmas is ABSTRACTARCHERS thus they are archers. THE FACT THAT THEY ARE CALLED JAVELIN CAVALRY IN THE GAME FILES HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ABILITIES, ITS JUST A FREAKING NAME.

Quote:

(turma's info stated that they are countered by sling)

No. What i wrote states that turmas(who are archers), get a bonus against archers(thus slingers as well). If you take a look at the slinger unit, you will see that it also gets a bonus against archers. THUS BOTH TURMAS AND SLINGERS GET A BONUS AGAINST EACH OTHER.

Quote:

If spearman get bonus on them because they are javelin cavalry

SPEARMEN GET A BONUS ON THEM SIMPLY BECAUSE ES ADDED A LINE ON SPEARMEN THAT GIVES SPEARMEN A BONUS AGAINST TURMAS SPECIFICALLY. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR IN FILE NAME WHICH IS JAVELIN CAVALRY, THIS WAS DONE FOR BALANCE REASONS.

Quote:

Another question is why Crenellations upgrade on tower do not affect on turma..they are javelin cavalry..

CAUSE THEIR FREAKING IN FILE NAME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR FREAKING UNIT CATEGORY. THEY MIGHT AS WELL CALL THEM ELEPHANTS AND IT WOULDNT MATTER. 1 THING MATTERS, THAT THEY ARE ABSTRACTARCHERS THUS ARCHERS.

HOW HARD IS IT FOR PPL TO DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A NAME AND AN ABILITY/GENRE?


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

City_Of_God
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 08:56 AM EDT (US)     12 / 17       
I think a lot of balance issues stem from inconsistencies such as this. Its like TA, they are inf/archer, and are countered by both counter inf and counter archer. This is the basis for why many people thing that they are weak imo. Similarly this applies to turmas. Turmas get pwned by counter archer and now by counter cav. However turmas are still regarded as a good unit due to there raiding abilities.
NIB
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 09:25 AM EDT (US)     13 / 17       
Tas are infantry. The fact that most anti-archer units get bonus against them is again for balancing issues(otherwise it would be hard to counter, especially for egyptians on classical). In order to effectively counter ranged units, you need ranged counterunits so that we can counter the critical mass problem that arises when some1 masses ranged units. Although norse dont have a ranged archer-counter unit, they do have godlike melee such as huskarls.

Still toxotes can be a bitch to counter as norse, especially when toxotes are microed effectively.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

MR2 Pilot
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 09:28 AM EDT (US)     14 / 17       
In the parameters listing for Turma (Javelin Cavalry), is the following listing;

<param name="HeightBonusMultiplier" value1="1.25" />

Thats very interesting, If I remember correctly, that affects their range. Does anyone know for sure?


FAILURE is not an option, it comes bundled with the software.
The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work ?"
The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work ?"
The graduate with an accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost ?"
The graduate with an arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that ?"
Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.
NIB
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 10:19 AM EDT (US)     15 / 17       
I think it affests dmg and it means that they get a 25% bonus when shooting from high ground to lower ground. I believe most(if not all) ranged units get bonus like this but the maps on aom arent designed to use this bonus.

ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

iam_Chrono_J
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 02:45 PM EDT (US)     16 / 17       
exactly what makes height come into play? cliffs? Certainly not actual elevation cause it's way to hard to determine where hills are.
MR2 Pilot
Mortal
posted 13 February 2004 04:06 PM EDT (US)     17 / 17       
I was thinking of the possibility that because their on horse back, thus "higher" than an archer walking, that perhaps they got a "HeightBonusMultiplier".

Probably wrong, just curious!


FAILURE is not an option, it comes bundled with the software.
The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work ?"
The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work ?"
The graduate with an accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost ?"
The graduate with an arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that ?"
Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.
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