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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Set - an intelligent conversation
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Topic Subject:Set - an intelligent conversation
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DeaconEire
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 04:04 PM EDT (US)         
Now since we are all in a "patch-mood",, I was thinking we could sum up all the little tid-bits that are wrong with the least used god Set. Lets please try to keep free of posts like "Set is OP - NERFNERF" Noone will play attention to this post if it is spammed up.

First off I think that animals were nerfed to hard. However I think this was not correct for convertables (cars ). Spamming monkeys is wrong. However nerfing the HP,, attack,, armor and conversion times. Converted animals can't be massed. Thus they can't really be used to much. I even think that taking away the heroes bonus damage would help Set a whole deal.

Then there are still a couple of bugs which are rather insignificant (unlike one involving certain greek gods :P) They are:
- PoS not attacking certain water-myth units
- Ancestors cast on water are horribly weak (you only need 2 siege ships to counter the entire GP!) and they also don't attack The Argo.
- Converted Karibou can't convert sheep
- Converted Arctic Wolves don't have a "voice"

I know these are very insignificant,, but sadly it looks a bit like ES' attitude is: "Oh Set is beyond reparation,, lets not bother about him anymore and concentrate on other gods." How else to explain these certain bugs which have been around for a while aswell as the total ignoration of Set in 1.02? Wasn't he unused and weak enough last patch? The only change was to increase Wadjets' hp,, which only made Set and Anubis even less frequently used

So,, what is your oppinion? Is it the animals that should be boosted? Or should ES leave animals the way they are and instead boost Set's eco? Or maybe his rax units? His migdol units? His god path? What do you think? Or do you really think he is fine and the 2% who actually use him are crazy?

AuthorReplies:
arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 01:00 AM EDT (US)     31 / 52       
Or maybe attack bonus against cavelry or give his arches 100% accuracy vs all units that will do.
Being an archery civilisation his archers must Rock.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-19-2004 @ 01:02 AM).]

City_Of_God
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 07:23 AM EDT (US)     32 / 52       
Sorry but set is perfectly fine. He is an eggy for a start which already makes him a strong god and he has significant unique bonuses which are strong but not OP. Most of the suggestions here would simply lead to us goin back to a state where Set was ridiculous.
Slogo
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 12:06 PM EDT (US)     33 / 52       
I agree Set is perfectly fine, you just need to play him right. Sending your priest over to the other side of the map and converting a few animals then (if you want) using those animals to kill other animals you can devistate enemy hunting. You can also cause idle time by running animals around distracting him (attack docks, towers, ect). Also Set's economy is fine. Spam 3-4 midgols and you've probably saved as much as an Isis player has by heroic.

Back during the announcement of 1.02 I did some calculations and came up with that if an Isis player researches the majority of technologies in classical she will save: 127F 112W 120G (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~aoe/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003221#000000 for reference)
That's approximately 350res. Build 3 midgols and you have in actuality covered the majority of the gap but that's not all. By using animals as a free meat shield to take a few hits and by making use of Set's stronger slingers Set won't need to replace his army as often as Isis (or Ra but I won't compare him to Set right now) which means furthur savings of gold. Also you can factor in the hunting conversion/killing to give Set one last edge to even out the economies. As late heroic/mythic comes around Isis will still have the better economy unless the Set has really spammed a lot of midgols but by then the game is decided more by skill and tatics than a little boost of an economy.

GRUNT
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 12:17 PM EDT (US)     34 / 52       
Someone needs to write a really detailed Set guide...all the ones availible are before he got nerfed =/.
ipso
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 12:35 PM EDT (US)     35 / 52       
ill try if you want

some points-

until you have map control, you can place a few 1 pop slot animals by gold mines; that + camels= gold pwnage.

converting some hunting in one of his hunting patches and leaving it there = free, stealthy obolisk that has crap attack. if you put it on stand ground, than if wont blow its cover.

sets main bonus is scouting. scouting = early map control, no hidden fb and knowing where all the hunting is. if someone could figure out a really effective fh for set, he would pwn all.

dont use animals as an army by its self. they dont make that good meatsheilds (although cost-effective ) and will die to almost any units pop wise. mix them in as you fight and watch them dissolve . there best uses are either confusion, or if thrown in half way through a fight. mix them with ele's if you want, too, as the enemy might micro his units vs them and not your animals.

thats all :s

Slogo
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 05:18 PM EDT (US)     36 / 52       
I'm actually in the process of writing one, I've been trying to get a few good set games to use as recs though and have had no luck.
arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 05:27 PM EDT (US)     37 / 52       
Set is balanced if consider him an Eggy. (If u feel it that way Ra and Isis are OP). Its that his bonus does not do good properly.
- If scouting is the only thing that sets bonus is supposed to be then give the Hyena some speed so that it can avoid TC fire and let the pharoah sommon a bird.
- Let the food produced by animals after convertion be the same as before convertion.
- atleast give those animals some more hitpoints so that they can serve as defense.
- for such crap animals its too much of a pop slot. they occupy. Animals hunted for food should cost only 1 pop slot or no pop slots.
ca_aok
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 06:14 PM EDT (US)     38 / 52       

Quote:

Set is balanced if consider him an Eggy. (If u feel it that way Ra and Isis are OP). Its that his bonus does not do good properly.
- If scouting is the only thing that sets bonus is supposed to be then give the Hyena some speed so that it can avoid TC fire and let the pharoah sommon a bird.
- Let the food produced by animals after convertion be the same as before convertion.
- atleast give those animals some more hitpoints so that they can serve as defense.
- for such crap animals its too much of a pop slot. they occupy. Animals hunted for food should cost only 1 pop slot or no pop slots.

I think all of those are great ideas. Keep the animals with bad stats, but dramatically lower conversion time & favour cost, and make all animals take 1 pop, at the most 2 for big ones like elephants. Maybe villies gather faster from set animals.... That way, they could at least be used for food without people whining about the animal attack being overpowered & overused, or underpowered and never used.


|Ca_aok|HG Seraph wannabe|
|{ca_aok@hotmail.com}|
|{ESO2: [EEX] ca_aok}|
O-- Member of EEX, and former member of LKS --O
In the Darkness, there is Light, in the Old, there is New.
From the Void a New Star rises, Shining down for Me and You.
Orion_Tok
Mortal
(id: Sp3ctre)
posted 19 April 2004 06:51 PM EDT (US)     39 / 52       
4 Population for a Rhino is ludicrous!!! Set ISN'T underpowered, however it's a case of "Why choose Set?". Set has no big distinguishing factor to make him chosen over Isis or Ra.

I think that the animal Population should be reduced by 50% and that the Feral upgrade should have a huge effect.

This means that if the Set player wants the animals, he can pay for them to be good.

BTW although I'm not doing a 'guide' to Set, I AM currently constructing a 'guide' to Set's Pharaoh. This includes tests with the FU Nepthyses Pharaoh, Tests on ALL the summoned animals and then finally tests with the FU Set Pharaoh+Animals Vs Infantry & Archers. I do add a bit of text, to make it a GUIDE and not a series of tests


Proud member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Tok
Check out my Japanese Civilisation Design Here!

[This message has been edited by Sp3ctre (edited 04-19-2004 @ 06:53 PM).]

Slogo
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 08:28 PM EDT (US)     40 / 52       
There are only two changes that set needs in my opinion.

1. Move Feral to the temple, it takes too much villager production time to research it from the town center. Thus it becomes worthless and along with it the animals lose a lot of their punch.

2. Give the animals (the early ones like monkeys and hyenas) their old hp values back. Along with other changes they reduced the hitpoints of the animals. The early ones especially could use that boost back especially considering that they are countered now by heroes. The bigger animals are generally alright but the extra hp would be useful as well.

Thors_hammer_256
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 09:45 PM EDT (US)     41 / 52       

Quote:

Back during the announcement of 1.02 I did some calculations and came up with that if an Isis player researches the majority of technologies in classical she will save: 127F 112W 120G (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~aoe/forums/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003221#000000 for reference)
That's approximately 350res

I really don't like it when people under-estimate cheaper tech bonuses.

"big deal you save 350 resources"

not only do you make this out to be a small amount, but you forget that it also means that you get them [b]QUICKER [b] because you don't have to wait for as many resources to be stocked up.

Plus, that's only classical techs, MIGDOLS ARE IN HEROIC.

Slogo
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 01:57 AM EDT (US)     42 / 52       
It's not an underestimation, you save 10 res here and 25 here in classical until you save up all of those resources. It does help and does help you get techs slightly earlier but a Set player can research the economy techs at the least around the same time as an Isis player preventing them from gaining an additional bonus of earlier econ techs.

It's not that the 10% bonus doesn't help it's that it's not an incredible savings. You can expect the Isis player to have 1 or 2 more armory techs and that's about it. Do those 2 techs matter? Yes. Does it mean that Set isn't worthwhile because the Isis saves those extra res? No!

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 01:58 AM EDT (US)     43 / 52       
^^ Quite rt u are. not only this i think it also extends to favour too. that way isis gets upgrade way ahead as compared to other. She will have benifit of obtaining War elephant and Thoth upgrades really early and those benifits is like rush attack but its with more upgrades than more no.of units late in the game.
Thors_hammer_256
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 02:14 AM EDT (US)     44 / 52       

Quote:

Does it mean that Set isn't worthwhile because the Isis saves those extra res? No!

I didn't say set is not worthwhile, I'm just stating what i think they should change about set if they were to make changes. I think set is just unpopular. Many people fail to realise that, with the exceptio of ancestors eclipse, Set has the most deadly GP combos in the game.
Vision meteor, Vision shifting sands or even all 4 at once! VISION + METEOR + SHIFTING SANDS + ANCESTORS can devastate an enemy base before they even have time to send their army back to save it.

It think Set is just unpopular because he is the only egyptian who isn't an economic civ. i think Egyptians are mostly related to defenseive playing and a strong economy in AOM. Set however is different.

[This message has been edited by Thors_hammer_256 (edited 04-20-2004 @ 02:16 AM).]

Orion_Tok
Mortal
(id: Sp3ctre)
posted 20 April 2004 10:39 AM EDT (US)     45 / 52       
I think Set is a very FUN god. People just get put off because they always lose

It's true about the GP combos, they really do own!! I think it's best to look at what Sets bonuses give in how to use him.

Uber-Slingers
Faster Chariot Training
Cheaper Migdols
Animals

From these benefits, I feel that the perfect strat is to get a Fast Heroic and Annihilate the enemy with CA. Use the Uber-Slingers and Animals to defend. Once in Heroic spam the Cheaper Migdols and then charge in with massed Chariot Archers

I haven't tested this, but surely a Set Chariot+Slinger combo will be almost unbeatable? With Sekhmet, Slingers can get the 'Slings of the Sun' Tech, this means that Anti-Archer Infantry are now beatable. Chariot Archers own everything except Anti-Archers, so if the Slingers can stop Turma, Peltasts, Huskarls and Rival Slingers, the CA should be alright. This gives even more emphasis on a Fast Heroic, as you don't need ANY food to supply your army!


Proud member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Tok
Check out my Japanese Civilisation Design Here!

[This message has been edited by Sp3ctre (edited 04-20-2004 @ 10:40 AM).]

Slogo
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 11:25 AM EDT (US)     46 / 52       
Slingers of the Sun doesn't give enough bonus to beat huskarls or destroyers because of high peirce armor. You lack a cavalry counter with sling + CA which is why axe + CA or Spear + CA is a better combo.
discordant
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 01:02 PM EDT (US)     47 / 52       
sp3ctre, that combo would lose badly to camel/elephant/sphinx combo imo. No anti-cav, no anti-myth in your combo. Camels are anti-cav and anti-archer, and you could probably beat out that combo with just camels, to be honest.
Amon_Ra121
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 06:19 PM EDT (US)     48 / 52       
You know, if the god path was Set-Ptah-Nephtys-Thoth, that would be uber.

Set - Cheaper Migdols, animals - meat shield
Ptah - Decent Spearmen
Nephtys - Decent Priest
Thoth - Decent Elephants, "Valley of the Kings" + Sets faster training Archers = Very fast masses of Chariots.

So, meat shield would be War Elephants and Spearmen, on the back would be Chariots and Priests.

War Elephants - Meat Shield
Spearmen - Cavelry
Chariots - Infantry/any unit
Priest - Myth Units

So, is this uber or what?

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 07:03 PM EDT (US)     49 / 52       
^^ ur quite rt about the combo but will Set be really able to do that. Think of it this way. Set's got the weakest economy. Before he gets those upgrades and gets a strong army out he is sure to be over run by his enemies. Isis has the economy bonus of cheaper techs which will alow her to get it much early because not only do they cost less because it cost less she gain them much earlier even as compared to RA. Ra can get the resourses to do this.

Set being a military God has to maintain a military fraom the starting of the game that way its going to be realy tough on his economy to get the combo to work. Spear cost a lot of food and so does war elephant. It will be difficult to keep them both massed together.

jazzman_1
Mortal
posted 21 April 2004 00:30 AM EDT (US)     50 / 52       
if you want to use the animals and sets bonuses effectively, either for hunting or for fighting (don't ask me why), you find that set's economy suffers even more because you have to build houses very actively while your priest converts animals. Thats just tying up one more villager that could be working.

For me, playing set is a pain in the arse. There are simple things that could done to improve the set playing experience. For instance, receiving a notification once an animal is converted. Secondly, I wish villies would auto attack huntable animals once you give them the initial command so you don't have to command them to hunt each one manually.

Seriously though, some of those huntables are way too slow. I think feral should boost speed too. This could also help scouting.

One more thing. Putting more priests on a conversion project should hasten the conversion much more than it does currently. The time should at least be reduced by 25%, if not 50% for each additional priest + the original one empowering. (There would probably have to be a cap, somewhat like greek villager worshipping.)

[This message has been edited by jazzman_1 (edited 04-21-2004 @ 01:05 AM).]

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 21 April 2004 07:20 AM EDT (US)     51 / 52       
I find the following things to be a good enough a boost for Set and will in no way over power him.

1. Feral boost the speed of all animals summoned or converted by set and does not boost their status.
2. Animals summoned or converted produces the same amount of food as they used to before convertion i.e the amount of food that they yield should not be reduced.
3. Reduce the POP slots by 1 for all animals or atleast make the pop slots animals like Gazzel and Giraffe occupy 1 pop slot. That will give Set a boost that he needs.

I tried this with the editor. A pharoah is continuously able to supply Girrafes for 5 villagers with the first two monuments and without any sort of empowerment and any upgrades and still where able to drop 140 food in 45 secs.

I also think Set needs a small bonus with his monuments. He must be able to get favour a bit faster like +.05 favaour for each monument per second. Every other Egyptian god have some special atrribute with their monument.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-21-2004 @ 05:07 PM).]

lessthanjakeman9
Mortal
posted 21 April 2004 08:07 PM EDT (US)     52 / 52       
After much thought ive come to this conclusion about set especially his animals and how to boost him without making him OP.

1. Make researching feral allow set animals to yield the same amount of food as they would if they werent under your control, of course only for the set player though.
2. Raise the nerfed animals to their previous hp. They simply die WAY too easily now.
3. Make heroes only get a 2x multiplier.
4. Give them their attack back but only once in classical


I think this would work the best. Sets animals have to be better. Its just a question of how. Lowering pop space is not a good way to boost them since animals are meant as an early game thing where you most likely havent hit pop limit yet. Raising attack isnt any good since they all die right away anyways. Also this could make dock killing too good again. So raising hp seems like the only way for them to serve their meatshield role better. Now i think they also need more attack but they cant have it in archaic since they shouldnt be able to harass dock builders that well. Raising it in classical allows them to serve their purpose and nothing more. Heroes kill animals in like one shot. Lowering their multiplier is good for stopping one hero from taking out every animal in like 15 seconds. Feral is useless now and sets eco needs a boost. By allowing them to get more food from set animals but only once feral is researched it solves both problems.

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