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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » murms vs ulfs
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Topic Subject:murms vs ulfs
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Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 02:16 PM EDT (US)         
Played around a little in the editor to see if atl really are as OP as some ppl would say.. This is just a little test but still.

I simply pitted norse and atlantean mainline inf vs each other, to see if they were somewhat equal, and hereīs the results..

I only tested unupgraded, classical inf. Murms cost 5 res more, so I put 16 murms vs 17 ulfs - equal resource wise (murms are smaller pop wise)

On average, 9 murms survived, with 60-70% hp left.

OUCH

Fer christ sakes, I really do hate to bitch, but wtf is this? Maybe ulfs can get more upgrades, but seriously? They are the exact same unit - mainline inf good vs cav, and move at roughly the same speed - and over half of the murmillos survive!??! I donīt know if this reflects the crappiness of norse units or the strenghth of atlantean ones, but it hurts me as a Norse player at heart to see this, it just reinforces my experience from in-game - when playing norse, donīt attack any military units unless you really, really have to - cheiro/turma will hold up damn well to pure rc, and it gets more annoying with every norse nerf.. Might add some tests to this thread later, want to know what others think about this first though..

AuthorReplies:
Lime the Great
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 02:27 PM EDT (US)     1 / 92       
Test how murmillos do against cavarly, and vs archers.

Rating - ~1700

[VnX_Lime]-[Lime_the_Great]

[This message has been edited by Lime the Great (edited 04-18-2004 @ 02:28 PM).]

Vassilis
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 02:39 PM EDT (US)     2 / 92       
You are not the only one to feel this way friend
As a Zeus player I have yet to find a way to stand even the slightest chance vs a decent Oranos player.

To the guy that said to test them against cavalry they sure do better than ulfsarks and TA have a harder time killing murms than hoplites, cause TA do less damage to murms than hoplites!

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 02:53 PM EDT (US)     3 / 92       
Lime - murms sure as hell couldnīt do worse vs cav than ulfs, since ulfs have exactly zero bonus vs cav. Vs archers the results would prolly be the same as in the test above. And of course how murms fare vs archers have no bearing whatsoever vs norse anyway, since norse have no archers. And I donīt think you want to get some ppl here started on the thrax..

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 04-18-2004 @ 02:54 PM).]

Quircus
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 02:54 PM EDT (US)     4 / 92       
Ulfsarks and Spearmen are light Infantry. They are Good vs Cavalry, and OK against everything else.

Hoplites and Murmillos are Heavy Infantry. They are Good vs everything.

Spearmen are very cheap (esp. Gold), and Ulfsarks are quite cheap (but slightly stronger).

Murmillos aren't as expensive as Hopites, but the difference is quite clear. Murmillos and Hoplites are used late game very effectively, but Spearmen and Ulfsarks are more defensive Units before the Elite Units (Camels, Jarls, Huskarls, Chariots, Elephants, Rams) are available. Late game Greeks are a bitch if you're using Barracks/Longhouse Units.

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 03:10 PM EDT (US)     5 / 92       
Quircus - No, No, No. Murms arenīt "heavy" inf. Theyīre MAINLINE inf. Theyīre a barracks unit, same as ulfs. Theyīre fast (as ulfs), with higher hack armor and lower pierce (same as ulfs), they cost 2 pop (ulf, again) and roughly the same res as an ulf (and the tests were made with the sides being equal resource-wise).

You are right in a sense, though, since murms certainly behave like they were heavy inf when compared to the ulfsark. And norse arenīt supposed to benefit greatly by switching to hillfort units in heroic - They donīt create fast, like eggys do, so you will prolly not be able to spam them anyway. And ulfs is the ONLY anti-cav norse have, atlanteans get 2, both being better.

But Iīll test murms vs jarls and husks now, so well c how they fare.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 04-18-2004 @ 03:11 PM).]

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 03:24 PM EDT (US)     6 / 92       
K, tested Jarls, Huskarls vs murms.. none of these units are supposed to do very well vs murmillos, but here we go anyway...

12 Jarls vs 18 murms (equal popwise, murms win slightly res.wise)

Murms win with 11 survivors on average

12 Husks vs 18 murms (equal popwise, husks win slightly rec.wise)

Murms win with 13 survivors on average

"Stand there and take it, ya norse bastards!!"

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 03:42 PM EDT (US)     7 / 92       
Any greek/eggy player who has some insight on how well spears/hops do vs murms? I donīt feel like going back into the editor for a while, bah.
The_Mafia_Man
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 03:44 PM EDT (US)     8 / 92       
I dunno who would win but ifu r Thor and u go forseti bragi tyr then do all the upgrades then i reckon a ulf would win. They get loads and loads of upgrades. They change from a crap units to a classe unit IMO.
Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 03:53 PM EDT (US)     9 / 92       
Yes i know - but the atlantean gets upgrades (albeit spread out), too.. And tox/hips can get a ton of upgrades with the rigth paths as well, but theyīre not worse from the start for that reason.
NIB
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 04:27 PM EDT (US)     10 / 92       
Norse cant counter murmillos or fanatics. This is a well known fact. Tas have an increased multiplier against hoplites, than they have against other infantry, cause hoplites are tougher than other infantry.

On the x-pac, murmillos were added but ES didnt give the same multiplier to tas that have against hoplites(since hoplites and murmillos are very similar). On top of that, add that tas are already weak.

And try comparing spearmen with hoplites. Woot, greeks are op.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

THoR_Gothmog
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 05:11 PM EDT (US)     11 / 92       
Problem with norse is they get 3 units in clasical and one of them is pretty useless in clasical but this has been since AOM so there's nothing new in it.

Proud member and high priest of THoR clan
Check us out at: www.thor-clan.co.uk
Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 05:11 PM EDT (US)     12 / 92       
NIB, everything you know isnīt a "well known fact". Iīd never seen a real test of it (thou you could just watch the stats i guess, but this way I know exactly how they measure).

And Iīm not so sure spears are that crappy vs hops if you take costs in account.

Anyway murms are similar to hops in many ways, but theyīre not really supposed to be as good as them - 2 pop, less cost, fast as spears and ulfs.

Iīll cry nerf now LOL..

Kumar Shah
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 05:13 PM EDT (US)     13 / 92       
Jhonny, you might want to cool down a bit.

Also, the way Norse is really supposed to play is with a mix of units. Any Norse player going out there with just Ulfs is going to lose. But when the combo of Ulfs, TA's and RC is made, thats when the difference comes.

Look some guides to Ulfsarks, and other people complaining about them being too good:
http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=t&number=11&dp=0&s_name=&s_subject=Ulf

Secondly, you may not use upgrades, but they are an important part of the game and have a great affect on the game. Ulfsarks and other Norse units really get some great upgrades at decent prices too.


Can you do the Double Yoda?
A sexual move, where you do a double backflip, insert your penis into the orifice of choice, and scream, "Afraid are you?"
THoR_Gothmog
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 05:14 PM EDT (US)     14 / 92       
Yah they do, u only need to survive through clasical which is usually the problem.

Proud member and high priest of THoR clan
Check us out at: www.thor-clan.co.uk
Quircus
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 05:47 PM EDT (US)     15 / 92       
By Heavy Infantry, I meant "Expensive, slow and good stats" (relatively).
By Light Infantry, I meant "Cheap, fast, average stats" (relatively).

When do you see non-Bragi Ulfs or non-Horus Spearmen in Mythic Age?! Exactly. They are meant for Classical Fighting (when they are great because they are cost efficient). They are not pop efficient so are useless in Mythic!

Hoplites are a major Mythic Unit, and Murmillos are also(although Fanatics are prefered because apart from cost, which isn't a problem anyway in Mythic, they beat Murmillos).

Also, Spears/Ulfs have better Armour than Murms/Hops - which gives them an edge early on, but becomes less important later because of the "Armoury Degrade System" (i.e. each Armoury Upgrade is less effective).

Because of all this:

Cost Efficient Spears/Ulfs = Early Game Offensive/Defensive
Pop Efficient Murms/Hops = Late Game Offensive

[This message has been edited by Quircus (edited 04-18-2004 @ 05:49 PM).]

G3_
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:03 PM EDT (US)     16 / 92       
I'm not sure if this post is just about the 2 units or about civ unbalances. I will think is about the civs been unbalanced. Try this tests that are more like a real classical age fight:

Example 1
----------

Attie Army

16 Murms = 825F + 480G = 1305 Resources
2 Prometheans = 140G + 20Fa = 160 Resources

Total = 1465 Res + Free classical Promethean + Valor to create 3 Murms heroes.

Norse Army

11Hersirs = 880F + 440G = 1320
1 Einherjar = 175G + 15Fa = 190 Resources

Total = 1510 + 1 Free Classical Einherjar

Result = Murms Win with 4 to 6 alive.


Example 2
----------

Same Attie Army

Total = 1465 Res + Free classical Promethean + Valor to create 3 Murms heroes.

Norse Army

8Hersirs = 640F + 320G = 960 Resources
4 Throwing Axeman = 200W + 160G = 360 Resources
1 Einherjar = 175G + 15Fa = 190 Resources

Total = 1510 Resources + 1 Free Classical Einherjar

Result = Norse Army win with 3 Hersirs + 4TA alive.


Example 3
----------

Attie Army

9 Murms = 495F + 280G = 775 Resources
3 Cheiroballistas = 345W + 300G = 645 Resources
2 Prometheans = 140G + 20Fa = 160 Resources

Total = 1580 Resources + Free classical Promethean + Valor to create 3 Murms heroes.

Norse Army

Same Army

Total = 1510 Resources + 1 Free Classical Einherjar

Result = 3 Hersirs + 4TA + 1 Einherjar alive.

Throwing Axeman were nerfed, but making 4 of them instead of 3 Hersirs makes a HUGE difference. Not even adding Cheiroballistas helped the Atties to win vs the Norse all infantry army! There wasn't even Raiding Cavarly to help with the cheiros!

Now, if you test that combo vs Gaia (no valor to make heroes) then you have a lot better results.

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:18 PM EDT (US)     17 / 92       
Still, fact is that even with all their upgrades, they can still be effectively countered by 2 units of every other civ (tox/hyp, axe/ca, arc/fan).

Not to mention that these upgrades arenīt free or additional, you will have invested almost all your myth techs in your ulfs, neglecting Jarls, myth (mostly), TAs and buildings.

And i know that Norse are supposed to be played as a mix of units (just like every other civ!). I was top 10 in Vanilla with Loki, so I know what Iīm talking about. The people posting about "damn ulfs kicking my butt" are, no offense, 100% noobs. Mix all you like, the atlantean mix of murm/cheiros will be better for the same price. And of course I use upgrades in the game, I just didnīt in the small test. But Iīm curious now, and might compare fully upgraded units later.

Nothing of all this takes anything away from my point, the reason I first posted:

When Norse and atlanteans both build their mainline infantry, the atlantean player will get a simply better unit, and not by a small margin

It just strikes me as odd.

Ulfs are good late mythic, esp if you can dart them around and attack undefended settlements in mass. I just donīt think this warrants them being significantly worse units in the beginning, any more than hipps should be nerfed cause you can get tons of upgrades for them too, if you choose that path.

Now Norse have some unique attributes that makes them competitive anyway - but itīs annoying when you face an equally skilled opponent, have equal econs, equal upgrades, use the best combo you can have vs his units - and get stomped.

Lastly. Quircus, you seem to be interested in a serious discussion and Iīd like that - I just donīt get your point all the time..

You say that murms are heavy inf and therefore are slow, expensive and have good stats.

But the thing is that they barely cost more than ulfs (and in the test I put in an extra ulf which made up for the diff), they cost the same pop, theyīre essentially as fast - but they keep their high HP.

And how can you say that ulfs are cost efficient and good for early game offensive, when they clearly cen creamed in classical?

jazzman_1
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:31 PM EDT (US)     18 / 92       
If you test the same amount of hops vs. murms, I guarantee you that the test won't come out in favor of the murms. Bottom line, ulfs and spearmen are more disposable than hops or murms, and their price reflects that. Also, compare build times between these mainline units for each civ. I'm sure ulfs and spearmen are built quicker than murms and hoplites.
Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:32 PM EDT (US)     19 / 92       
C3, You must have done something SERIOUSLY wrong in your tests. I thought the results were way off, so I did the 3rd test (the one most in favor of the Norse) 2 times.

result:

1st time: atl win with 3 murm, 1 hero, all 3 cheiros and 1 and a half prom. left.

2nd time: atl win with 3murm, 3 heroes, 2 cheiros and 1 prom left.

Maybe you left all microing out, resulting in the cheiros targetting the einherjar, I dunno.

EDIT: Jazzman - ulfs are built really quick, certainly quicker than murms. But they are not really (much) cheaper, so please read posts, and know stats properly dammit!

Hops might kill murms, but prolly not costwise and certainly not popwise. A large part of this is due to the fact that hops are much slower.

People keep lumping hops and murms together, but the point is that murms are more like ulfs in terms of cost, pop, speed and armor. Theyīre not an atlantean hoplite!! Just check the stats.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 04-18-2004 @ 06:43 PM).]

jazzman_1
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:35 PM EDT (US)     20 / 92       
Johnny, I forgot to mention this. When you pit ulfs against murms in the editor, u must realize that the base unit is created of each. With that being said, the base unit of the ulfsark is built in the archaic age, when his attack and hps are quite low. When you hit classical, he gains more hps and attack. More than likely, you were pitting archaic ulfsarks against classical age murmurillos. The stats for an archaic ulf and a classical one differ immensely.
Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:41 PM EDT (US)     21 / 92       
Jazz.. both units were classical. Otherwise prolly no murm would have died. (The ulf being ultranerfed in archaic creates a bunch of problems esp vs kronos, with hero Oracles messing with your builder, but thatīs not the issue here). The tests were with the base classical unit, no upgrades, the way they would be for a great part of the classical age. Upgrades might have lessened the gap (unless the atty went Oceanus), but not by much.

EDIT: I just love it when people lecture me in a very pedagogical manner while being completely wrong

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 04-18-2004 @ 06:42 PM).]

G3_
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:57 PM EDT (US)     22 / 92       
I didnt test with another person. Did you test with 2 people microing each civ or just one civ?

Im sure Norse would do better if they micro the TA to kill the Attie heroes and some hersirs attack cheiros first. Same for atties if they make the cheiros attack the TA first but that would make it easier for the hersirs to take them down too as they have to walk less. All this is in the case that Norse are been microed too.

If I find someone to test with, then I will do the test. Anyway, you can go and check this:

http://eso.die-ohne-clan.de/index.php?name=aom&gametype=Supremacy&timeperiod=AllTime&what=stats&gmt=0

Atties have a lower win percent over norse. (48.72% Atties vs 51.34% norses) Is possible that only good players play Norse but anyway, it looks balanced as I see it.

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 07:05 PM EDT (US)     23 / 92       
I just microed the cheiros on inf (tas one time, hers the next). The rest of the units were pretty much left to their own devices. Also, the Norse take up more pop in this matchup, no? I guess lots of matchups and micros could be tried, but I suspect that A. will come out on top in the end. Way on top.

Winning percentages donīt say much when looked at superficially. That is just my strong opinion. Prolly ppl get smacked with a Kronos rush, and then try to do one themself, attempting to build rax with their Oracles... I had only 50 something winn. perc when I was 7 in the world with Loki, so...

jazzman_1
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 07:13 PM EDT (US)     24 / 92       
Well I was just making sure you were comparing apples with apples. There is a discrepancy in your first test you made, however. You should have pit 18 ulfs against 16 murms for there to be resource parity. As you recall, murms cost 55F and 35G where ulfs cost 50/30.

EDIT: Well, it looks like this site doesn't keep the unit stats up to date. The murm does indeed cost 55/30. Ignore that statement then. Personally, I would feel better if they cost 55/35.

Regarding build times, keep in mind that you can build slightly more than 21 ulfs in the time it takes you to build 16 murms. Also, ulfs are slightly faster than murms (4.8 to 4.5) and they also have more attack (9 compared to 8)

The big difference between the two is h.p.'s, as the hack damage is close to the same (murms have 4 percent more hack than ulf's.) I'm not saying that either is underpowered or overpowered, I'm just stating some facts that have been left out.

The bottom line is, it is not a good idea to throw only ulfsarks against murms unless you outnumber them significantly. That what T.A. are for. Norse have cheap quick building, diverse units that have individual roles.
One of the basic descriptions of murms is that while they are good against cavalry, they are also decently effective against other infantry.

btw, I got these stats from this website, let me know if some of them are not correct.

EDIT: Just one other thing that came to mind that most people might overlook. The ulfsark has 4 different techs available that improve their line. (2 of the 3 norse races have all of them available to them) The murm only has 1 tech availabe them that specifically affects their attack/def stats. (only 2 of 3 atty races have this tech available)

[This message has been edited by jazzman_1 (edited 04-18-2004 @ 07:39 PM).]

Kumar Shah
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 07:27 PM EDT (US)     25 / 92       
Surprising that the tests did not have RCs in them

Can you do the Double Yoda?
A sexual move, where you do a double backflip, insert your penis into the orifice of choice, and scream, "Afraid are you?"
SeaBass
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 10:35 PM EDT (US)     26 / 92       
Where's the test of Loki/Forsetti/Bragi/Tyr Ulfsarks vs Oranos/Oceanus Murms?

Or to be more outrageous, Thor/Forsetti/Bragi/Tyr ulfs. I'm almost certain that FU Thor ulfs will slaughter Murms, with or without Bite of the Shark.

Though for a more realistic situation, standard Murmillo's vs Bragi ulfs, and test how they fare against cavalry and which one counters cavalry better.

G3_
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 00:13 AM EDT (US)     27 / 92       
Ok, I did the same test as you microing the Cheiros all the time and attacking the TAs first then the Hersirs. Still Norse won with just one Einherjar alive on 3 tests. No micro for the norse army on any test.

So what is wrong here? I guess you forgot to turn on the Classical tech age flag to active for Norse. Hersirs just have 2 attack in archaic age. I turned off the Classical tech age flag to off and I got the same results as you.

Do the test again with the Classical flag set to active to watch the correct results. You can set it under triggers and Effects using SetTechStatus or something like that. Then you will see a dropdown box with the list of techs.

I also did 3 more tests with all the tech they can get on classical from armory, medium infantry and Bite of the Shark for atties. Microing Cheiros all the time and Norse won with 1 Einherjar and 4 Hersirs minimum on all tests.

About the pop:

Norse Army
8 Hersirs = 8*3 = 24
4 Throwing Axeman = 4*2 = 8
1 Einherjar + Free one = 3*2 = 6
Total = 38 Pop space.

Attie Army
9 Murms + Valor = 6 Murms + 3 Hero Murms = 6*2 + 3*3 = 21
3 Cheiroballistas = 4*3 = 12
2 Prometheans + Free one = 2*3 = 6
Total = 39 pop space.

[This message has been edited by G3_ (edited 04-19-2004 @ 00:32 AM).]

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 06:38 AM EDT (US)     28 / 92       
G3, we must have different games I have classical turned on, Iīm checking the stats now, and I get the same results... and I would be surprised if they werenīt.. hersirs beat murms 1v1 only barely, and cheiros are immensely better vs inf than tas.. the einherjar horn blast prolly made the big difference... maybe you put the ein in a much better position (ie front, middle, not getting heroes vs it)

Kumar, are you trying to be funny? The tests donīt have rcs in them, because Iīm not testing rcs. There are no katapelts in them either.. Iīm just saying we have two units which are nearly identical in cost and speed, identical in pop space and in bonuses, and one of them is much worse than the other.

Anyway Iīll do fully upg. units now.. back in 15..

Johnny_Deppig
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 08:10 AM EDT (US)     29 / 92       
Ok, tested fully upgraded Thor ulfs vs fully upgr murms, and the ulfs won, no surprise. With serrated swords, 10 ulfs with roughly 70% HP survived, without 11 survived. So this confirms what I believe everyone already knew, that if you choose the Norse god who has armor bonuses, and pick all 3 gods who improve you ulfs, they will become pretty good.

Of course, the atl. could just use fanatics.

This doesnīt apply to Odin at all (no Bragi), and Loki ulfs arenīt quite as good either. But yes, Thor FU ones are damn good.

I just donīt see why the fact that a player who chooses Norse can put all his eggs in one basket, means that all Norse should get a bad anti-cav...

Hades FU toxotes are also very, very good - but the tox. isnīt a poor unit out of the box for that reason - it is for example much better than the Norse ranged HU (TA).

Tyr_of_Asgard
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 08:12 AM EDT (US)     30 / 92       
The problem is as it's always been. all Norse Rax units have low HPs. with the nerf of TA's and Thundering Hooves, there slightly cheaper cost(not then Eggy though)in know way shape or form makes up for this. now, with the Atlantians it's more obvious as they trump the Norse econ(that helps Norse stay afloat vs Eggy and Greek) and receive Greek quality units at Norse prices.

some possible solutions are,

military:
lower the stats or raise the cost of Attie Units.

econ:
raise the build time of Attie villes. or lower the cost of Thor and Odin Ox Carts to 25/25 and Loki's to 15/15.

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