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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Changes to WONDERS: a Poll and Balance Issues - Please Help!
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Topic Subject:Changes to WONDERS: a Poll and Balance Issues - Please Help!
arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 07:49 PM EDT (US)         
Please Go through it completely.

I want you guys to tell me
--------------------------
1. If it is possible to make these changes in a patch or will it require an AOM2/Expansion pack?
2. Do u like this idea / donot care about it / if this should not occur at all.
3. If u see this will lead to some balancing issues tell if it can be corrected or not? If possible what way.

Changes to Wonders
------------------
1. Provide favour (1 Favour in 5 secs)

2. Reduce POP slots of all myth units by 1.

3. Allows u to train myth unit at faster rate (25 % faster) [ OR ] has the capability to produce 2 Myth units Simultanious (it does occupy quite some space.)
----I would also like to know which idea u like better (A) produce simultanious units or (B) faster production of Myth units.

4. Reduces cost of Myth units by 10% that are produced in the Wonder.

5. Change wonder victory to -- Player wins if his wonder stands for 5 mins or his opponent does not build a wonder in 5 minutes. So if the enemy can build the wonder in 5 mins then the game is not over.

How does this effect the Game
-----------------------------
1. A New Age - There is a lot of cost into the wonder 1000 gold/wood/food - 50 fav. Cost is good enough to evolve into a New Age( An actual Mythic age). But if ur not strong enough to protect this age u loose it and ur opponent gains supremacy.

2. Real Supremacy - Wonders are just a building does not give u a really supremacy over the other player but if this change is made then u can say that as if both player has the wonder they are even but if it leads to a circumstance where the other player looses a wonder he is doomed and it gives rise to a real supremacy.

3. Lots of New strats as Myth units can be really used.

4. No longer the Titan is devastating or a game ender as u can use Myth units to counter it.

5. Stop Late Game Merc Spam - I have heard that Eggies Merc spam in the late game to out pop their enemies and this is lame. With more Myth units they got to create more priests to counter them and this will reduce their capability to merc spam out as both cost gold.

6. This change will not cause any stupid early game rush techniques leading to Over Powerdness. Instead will make meaning to late age games and more action and a new age of different dimension.

7. NO LONGER BUILD WONDER, BUILD TITAN, DEFEND AND WIN.

Balance Issues : Some Balance Issues will arise from this.
----------------
1. Automatons donot require a pop slot reduction as they are already 2.

2. Eggies should not be able to empower the Wonder this might Blow things out of propotion.

...

Poll:

Like the Idea - 1 (Favour generation and Victory condition Only)
Donot Care about the Idea - 1 ( from a person who hate wonder victory )
This change Should not be Made - 1 ( from a person who hate wonder victory )


Thank you for Helping.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-21-2004 @ 04:41 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Fwiffo del desierto
Mortal
(id: Fwiffo)
posted 20 April 2004 07:55 PM EDT (US)     1 / 15       
Wonders are already good, and lame imo as well. Last thing we want is more people winning by doing nothing except building titan + wonder...

Everyone got AIDS and shit
arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 08:47 PM EDT (US)     2 / 15       
^^ Did u read everything I said. The Change I have said will " Stop people by just building wonder or a titan gate it actually will become a new age and give the wonder more meaning. NO LONGER BUILDING A WONDER AND DEFENDING IT WILL WORK. U HAVE TO BUILD A WONDER AND STOP THE OPPONENT FROM BUILDING ONE TO WIN.

Come on guys take some time read it fully and Post replies.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-20-2004 @ 08:48 PM).]

EC_firesaiyan
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 08:49 PM EDT (US)     3 / 15       
most of this is copyed from previous post
arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 08:51 PM EDT (US)     4 / 15       
^^ What Did i copy from u. I wanted more Myth units and trying to bring them late game not early. And the favor idea just was a coincidence.
lessthanjakeman9
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 08:52 PM EDT (US)     5 / 15       
I think that having to stop an opponent from building one is a great idea as well as gaining you favor. I dont really like the ideas about MU's at the wonder though.


The only thing is this. You build a wonder. Then your opponent builds a wonder. Then you take his down. Do you win or not? And what if he makes one second but takes yours down?
I assume the timer will start again.

[This message has been edited by lessthanjakeman9 (edited 04-20-2004 @ 08:53 PM).]

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 09:01 PM EDT (US)     6 / 15       
The wonder is supposed to show a player as a supreme player. Thats reason why I made it so. In order to show real supremacy I want a player to hold a wonder and stop his opponent from having one of his own thats real supremacy. As long as that cannot be done both are equal. But one can do that to other he is strong and he is to win by supremacy.

I cannot under stand what u r saying about the Myth units.U need to say why u donot like them.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-20-2004 @ 09:03 PM).]

Counter_Master
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 09:07 PM EDT (US)     7 / 15       
they could do it in a patch, but they don't usually do something so big. It's almost like a new building

.o.o Counter_Master o.o.
Independent Scenario Designer
Current Project: Alexandria
I don't got time for pain! The only pain I got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!' --- Terry Tate


arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 09:09 PM EDT (US)     8 / 15       
^^ I want this to be a new age which can be removed from u if the opponent is strong enough -- Giving real supremacy.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-20-2004 @ 09:09 PM).]

Fwiffo del desierto
Mortal
(id: Fwiffo)
posted 20 April 2004 09:25 PM EDT (US)     9 / 15       
I read the post, my point stands. Take away wonders giving you automatic victory and its a lot better. I want games where you win if you actually beat your opponent, not build a building/megalon.

Everyone got AIDS and shit
EC_firesaiyan
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 10:57 PM EDT (US)     10 / 15       
lol i was j/k im sure thousands of people thought of that
arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 20 April 2004 11:34 PM EDT (US)     11 / 15       
I havent got so far any constructive ones. I want more people to really tell me if this good or bad do i need to change any or remove any.

I think from the report so far its ok for the Wonder to generate favour and that for ur victory u should have a wonder and the opponent should have none beore the timer ends.

But how about the Myth unit ideas and Balancing issues.

Common suggest something that will help me deside. I wanted a POLL.The things I said are surely not blowing things out of propotion. Its a boost to every civilsation and does not cause any serious imbalance. Whats the flaw so that I may know.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-21-2004 @ 04:36 AM).]

HCE
Mortal
posted 21 April 2004 03:39 AM EDT (US)     12 / 15       
It sounds like you only want the answers that you want - rather than the ones you're actually getting. So why don't you just answer yourself and be done with it!
arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 21 April 2004 04:29 AM EDT (US)     13 / 15       

^^ I sure want this to happen But I donot know the balancing issues that might be required and need to know if it is possible to do it. But me alone liking it is not going to make ESO bring about the changes.

I know a lot about Egyptians especially RA and Set but as far as others are concerned i do not know much, thats why i need ur help to find out how it is going to affect each god and is it feasible to do it.
If there is going to be lot of Nos or dislike then the thread is going down.

What I want is a clear answer saying only this is possible and the rest should not be there and a reason as to why this should not be there. So far I have not got any unanimous replies.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-21-2004 @ 04:33 AM).]

dnwq
Mortal
posted 21 April 2004 08:45 AM EDT (US)     14 / 15       
Consider using coherent English. You may garner more support if people can tell what you're talking about.

Some of these measures are okay, but some are not. And there's the problem of implementation.

Quote:

1. Provide favour (1 Favour in 5 secs)

Viable. Maybe. Current statistics (cost, population, etc.) would have to be modified quite a bit to apply this.

Quote:

2. Reduce POP slots of all myth units by 1.

It is much better to reduce by a percentage, which can't be done for population. Reducing by a fixed number of 1 means that you can have, for instance, twice as many Automatons but only one extra Heka Gigantes. There'll be a problem balancing the two. And if Automatons don't get the benefit because of already-low population, then what's the purpose in building Automatons at all in with Wonder benefits? They're no different from the opponent's. And units with 3 pop. slots also need to be rebalanced. Along with 4. And 5. And everything.

Quote:

3. Allows u to train myth unit at faster rate (25 % faster) has the capability to produce 2 Myth units Simultanious (it does occupy quite some space.)
----I would also like to know which idea u like better (A) produce simultanious units or (B) faster production of Myth units.

I would prefer A to B; A is easier to implement. ES seems to like these sort of improvements; a hidden technology similar to Celerity can be used. B, on the other hand, requires some serious patching and modification. And it raises questions like which comes first. And it's equivalent to producing everything in half the time.

However, the details as to how much faster will definetly need testing.

Quote:

4. Reduces cost of Myth units by 10% that are produced in the Wonder.

I didn't know you could produce anything in the Wonder. If you intended this as a new feature, state so.

This is as viable as Celerity. Yes, it is workable, but by Mythic you have 1) no more population space 2) or, no more favor. Myth unit production therefore remains just as slow.

Population's that nasty thing, see. Especially in late Mythic. It renders this useless as it is; either remove it or change it.

Quote:

5. Change wonder victory to -- Player wins if his wonder stands for 5 mins or his opponent does not build a wonder in 5 minutes. So if the enemy can build the wonder in 5 mins then the game is not over.

I've considered this before, but it's ultimately pointless. AoM is a game designed to have short RMs. It's just a delay tactic: ultimately that Wonder still has to go down. Buying yourself a few minutes is useful, but if you have all that resources to buy time with, you may as well have gotten a larger army.

Note that Wonders were implemented originally to force a turtler out to fight. Consider Jotunheim. If the turtler could get a Wonder of his own, then it defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Quote:

1. A New Age - There is a lot of cost into the wonder 1000 gold/wood/food - 50 fav. Cost is good enough to evolve into a New Age( An actual Mythic age). But if ur not strong enough to protect this age u loose it and ur opponent gains supremacy.

I confess I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:

2. Real Supremacy - Wonders are just a building does not give u a really supremacy over the other player but if this change is made then u can say that as if both player has the wonder they are even but if it leads to a circumstance where the other player looses a wonder he is doomed and it gives rise to a real supremacy.

If you wanted "Real Supremacy", then why have a time limit at all? If you have a Wonder and I have a massive army outside your gates, I'm still superior to your puny Wonder. Even at 0:00 time.

The purpose of the Wonder in AoM isn't to demonstrate supremacy, no matter what the description says. If it was, it would automatically appear on its own whenever a player was 'supreme' to the others. It's a game-ending measure. Not a game-extending one.

Quote:

3. Lots of New strats as Myth units can be really used.

Consider an actual game. It's late Mythic. How many more Myth units can you get? One? Or did a few hundred population slots fall out of the skies?

Quote:

4. No longer the Titan is devastating or a game ender as u can use Myth units to counter it.

It is supposed to be a game ender.

Quote:

5. Stop Late Game Merc Spam - I have heard that Eggies Merc spam in the late game to out pop their enemies and this is lame. With more Myth units they got to create more priests to counter them and this will reduce their capability to merc spam out as both cost gold.

'Solving' an imbalance by introducing another. Suppose you're the Egyptian player. You see a wave of Myth units charging towards you. What will you do?

1) Build more Priests? This won't work because of imbalances - suppose you have the population and resources to mantain 20 priests. Suppose again that these Priests counter x amount of normal enemy Myth units, at maximum. If your opponent can build x amount of Myth units normally, this is balanced. But with the Wonder improving Myth units, then you'd need more Priests, right? From where?

2) Build human units? This is a army of Myth units.

3) Build a Titan? Lots of time you have when Myth units are charging about your city, there's an enemy Wonder up, and there's no other army available to remove those Myth units.

4) Build Myth units? You'd be outnumbered. Attrition would quickly remove the resource benefit.

5) Build a Wonder of your own? See 'Titan'.

Quote:

6. This change will not cause any stupid early game rush techniques leading to Over Powerdness. Instead will make meaning to late age games and more action and a new age of different dimension.

This game is about early rushing. If anything is overpowered, fix it in that age rather than shifting the focus to another age. Don't make the game a rush to Mythic for the Wonder.

Quote:

7. NO LONGER BUILD WONDER, BUILD TITAN, DEFEND AND WIN.

Quit the capitals, will you?

If you can build a Wonder, and build a Titan, and defend both: you deserve to win.

---

Some of the ideas viable. Many are not. And the viable ideas have somewhat doubtful reasons behind them. So, overall: no.

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 21 April 2004 08:58 AM EDT (US)     15 / 15       
Thats a good reply
Ok I see that the idea cannot be implemented.
Will somebody please close the thread.
Thank you.
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