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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Annihilated in less than 10 minutes--how?
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Topic Subject:Annihilated in less than 10 minutes--how?
cleasterwood
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 11:30 AM EDT (US)         
How on earth do these people get enough units to attack and defeat in the first 8 minutes without having to even go beyond Classic? I can't count the number of times when I've had 20 villies doing their thing and all of a sudden an army of 30-50 comes and kills me before I get an army of more than 10 built?

I kid you not, they have 1500+ before going to Classic Age and then game over. I'm sorry but I like to be able to have fun with AOM but lately I've been more aggravated than anything. There's no enjoyment in playing when you're going to killed inside 10 minutes. It's more annoying than anything and I don't hear any thunder when people cheat on ESO.

I've read the manuals, watched games, upgraded MU's ASAP, and pump out as many MU's as I can inside Classic Age and still I have opponents with double what I have. Especially with Atlantean players who take longer to produce villies. Within 4 minutes they already have stats twice, if not three times higher than me.

What gives?


Tickle the Muse within You!
AuthorReplies:
thegrindre
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 11:43 AM EDT (US)     1 / 25       
I believe they are cheating. They know something that we don't. It's happened to me many times also. I don't play on line anymore because of the 'cracks' and 'coding' they know. I don't believe in cheating and would rather play a fair game heads up.

Sometimes ya gotta play bad to win good!
mooker123
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 11:46 AM EDT (US)     2 / 25       
A little more information will be good, before the hounds jump in. What civ and god are you playing? Are you playing rated or non-rated, sumpremacy games, 1v1 or team games?

And what civs are you having a tough time with? (Norse and Attie can both devastate early on).

In what you've said, given the details, I'd say you've either run into the wrong civs or more likely played better opponents. If you've playing rated you may want to adjust your setting from intermediate to beginner, or just practice a bunch more.

I've played since the original Age of Empires and I am no expert, but I'm not bad. There are times however, when I just get schooled and that's because I'm either playing someone way better then me (and I try to take notes!) or I picked the wrong strategy and my opponent picked a strategy that completely wiped me out. You just have to laugh it off. The other night I was schooled by an Attie player, a civ I usually do well against. He just played better and his strategy overwhelemd my defenses (which made me forget to raid, which let his economy grow free, which allowed him to keep the pressure up and down I went!)

You can help prevent this early on with better scouting, getting your tower upgrades, getting a few hereos and getting just a few units out yourself. It may seem like he has 50 military units, but more then likely its far less...it all depends on which civ you play.

Don't give up, practice with one civ and watch recorded games. See how an expert handles a rush, they never panic and they preserve their units under tc or tower fire. More when you let us know more information!!

Also, the worst trap you can set for yourself is to assume people are cheating. Could they be? Yes, but not everyone. It's better to improve yourself and understand your real rating then to think everyone is cheating. And if you don't like the cheats, play non rated, it's less likely because not as much is at stake.

[This message has been edited by mooker123 (edited 08-01-2006 @ 11:50 AM).]

cleasterwood
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 12:09 PM EDT (US)     3 / 25       
Usually, I use QuickStart. I encounter it with all types of civs. I can't set the rating anymore. Usually I play as either Norse-Thor or Egyptian-Isis/Ra. But even when I play as other civs it happens. Over the last 3 or 4 days it seems to be happening more often. I scout early and at about 2 minutes have scouted into their territory or cleared the map half way across the board and lo-and-behold they have 2-3 MU buildings, 2 temples, and several units built sitting in the middle, not to mention their TC. I saw one with 20 villies in one spot inside minute 5!? I'll be sitting at 6-700 stats and they'll have 1000+ already. By 4 minutes, just after both advance, I'm being killed before I even get a MU building up. I know the Atlanteans are faster gathers/builders and can understand it when they kill me quick but every other civ?

Another thing that bugs me is those who play just until I catch up and then want to save & exit. What's weird is I have heard funny noises, but no thunder. When I play deathmatchs and have been invited (if I can even connect after downloading their map file), I can stomp behind all day.

i r n00b
Banned
posted 01 August 2006 12:34 PM EDT (US)     4 / 25       

Quote:

I believe they are cheating. They know something that we don't

Yeh, they are cheating, but experts prefer to call it "Kronos rush"

PittBull260
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 01:42 PM EDT (US)     5 / 25       
happened to me too man, i was playin, i didnt even get to the heroic age and this guy was in the mythic age with a huge army of myth units and siege..killed us all
he had to be cheating, no way in hell could he just get that much resources that fast...
Grim_Reaper72
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 02:15 PM EDT (US)     6 / 25       
watch the records of these matchs and get there build orders or see if like soldiers just pop outa there TC if not there no cheating

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minatour_warrior
Banned
posted 01 August 2006 04:17 PM EDT (US)     7 / 25       
i think you will probably find you are losing because they are better then you, harsh but true.
mooker123
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 05:09 PM EDT (US)     8 / 25       
I agree w/ minatour_warrior. You have to be careful watching the score especially early on. Eggies are always way below point totals until they hit classical. that's why I asked what civ you play. You should not watch the score!!

If you're Norse playing Norse and their score is way above yours then they may be better or they may be cheating, I'd say watch the recorded game and you should be able to tell and/or learn a lesson.

I also think that people, more and more, are following exact build orders and executing exact strategies to produce certain units. I've had many Loki players fold within 10 minutes when their initial rush fails, they know with Ra's economoy that I'll be having them for lunch if they don't take me out early. So some people bank on that one strat. Another thread spoke about someone who does an all hoplite Zeus strat; which I absolutely love to see as a Ra player. My cheaper ax men and priests wade through the carnage; but I've also been caught off guard by that strat and it comepletely rolled me.

So my guess still is that the people you are playing may be better then you or they are carrying out a very tight and exact strategy that you are not used to facing. Keep practicing with a defensive civ like Isis or Hades OR do the opposite and attack, attack, attack and see what happens! Worse case, record a game or 2 and see what you can see.

MR2 Pilot
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 05:33 PM EDT (US)     9 / 25       
cleasterwood,

From your description of the game, it could be either way, a good player or a cheater.

When I first started playing on-line, I felt as your describing; "How can they possibly have all those units so quickly, they must be cheating"! But it turned out they were not, they were just good. A fair sized army in 10 minutes is not such a big deal!

One Isis player I came up against, was in Heroic with a forward TC and Migdol up, by 7:45 game clock, and that was while I was raiding him hard with Turmae, playing Oranos. (Orion_Echion, with a 1950+ rating)

I've had Loki rushes against me at 6 mins, with enough units to put a serious dent in my econ.

Anyway, after playing another 50 to 100 games, look back on this and see if you still think your up against cheaters.

You can always replay the game, if you have the "Record Games" option turned on.

Edited for spelling


FAILURE is not an option, it comes bundled with the software.
The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work ?"
The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work ?"
The graduate with an accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost ?"
The graduate with an arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that ?"
Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

[This message has been edited by Orion_Antares (edited 08-01-2006 @ 05:38 PM).]

a_game_a_win
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 07:40 PM EDT (US)     10 / 25       
hmmm 1500+ score before classical? rofl. Definite cheat (if your telling the truth)
Steve_the_Pirate
Mortal
posted 01 August 2006 09:09 PM EDT (US)     11 / 25       
The worst thing u can ever do in supremacy is panic. Once u start panicing u dotn think straight and start to continue what ur doign instead of changign ur current strategy to counter theres. And dont be intimidated by there score or army size, ur enemy can have 15 soldiers. U could have 5 soldiers. but ur 5 counter there 15 so if u go into battle theres a good chance that he/she will lose almost all of there soldiers therefore makign a attack would be useless becuz he/she only has like 3-5 men left which would be killed by a tc or grouped villes. and that woudl even the playign field. A good civ. to practice not panicing is eggy, because of there weak start there more vulnerable to rush. And if the enemy is atlantean or norse they'll usually have the first attack. but if u rough the enemy too the heroic as eggy the tide has turned. and the game is about even now. and once u get the midgols up and advance to mythic you'll be very powerful and easilly able to have a fair and even fight at the least. If u quit u never get better. and its better to play those better then the weaker, cuz when u play much better ppl u learn not onyl from ur mistakes, but ur also learn from there strategy by itself. So ur lucky if ur playign much better ppl cuz you will be much better before u know it.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 02 August 2006 02:03 AM EDT (US)     12 / 25       
Orion_Antares already mentioned the right approach: Just watch the replay, but switch to the opposing side (and turn on fog of war), so you see exactly what the enemy player saw. You can follow all of his actions, observe his resources, and precisely examine whether there was anything illegal about it. I doubt it though. I am confident you will find that he was just a whole lot better. How did he do it? Just watch him in the replay, and you will know. It is as easy as that.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Skythe
Mortal
posted 02 August 2006 06:13 AM EDT (US)     13 / 25       

Quote:


2-3 MU buildings

Quote:


2 temples

These are the same. Take note that the Atty player will nearly always have a higher score as well. I usually assume theyre 200 or so pts behind what it actually says.

If you run into another one of these, after the game from the main menu click 'More' then 'Recorded Games' and open the first one. It will play that game. Then you can switch to their p.o.v. and see what they were doing.


S k y t h e
i r n00b
Banned
posted 02 August 2006 06:36 AM EDT (US)     14 / 25       

Quote:

Orion_Echion, with a 1950+ rating

lol stfu, more like 175+

cleasterwood
Mortal
posted 02 August 2006 09:19 AM EDT (US)     15 / 25       
Ok, I didn't mean to say that these people were cheating; I don't know. I just don't hear thunder, so it leads me to believe they're more experienced. When the system matches us up they are at about the same overall rank between 1400's-1500's as far as their score. Wouldn't their score be higher than 1500+ if they were better though? I'm sitting at 1453 and a percentage of about 31% won. I understand the higher resources at the start of the game.

I just wanted some thoughts on how they could get to high in-game stats/resources so fast. Thanks for all the advice as I will definitely watch more replays and follow some of the wonderful strategies recommended.


Tickle the Muse within You!
harr
Mortal
posted 02 August 2006 09:38 AM EDT (US)     16 / 25       
I'd say constant villager production from the start and sending villagers to hunting at first instead of farming could make quite a difference in scores if you don't do this too.

Quote:

upgraded MU's ASAP, and pump out as many MU's as I can inside Classic Age


Don't upgrade myth units straight away. You need a couple before an upgrade is more beneficial than just getting another one. Myth units should only really be mixed in with the rest of your army instead of being the whole army. Try sticking with one temple and building more human units. Myth units are very expensive early on and if the enemy has any heroes you will be in big trouble.

[This message has been edited by harr (edited 08-02-2006 @ 09:39 AM).]

MR2 Pilot
Mortal
posted 02 August 2006 04:21 PM EDT (US)     17 / 25       

Quote:

Orion_Echion, with a 1950+ rating
lol stfu, more like 175+

Echion's rating has decayed down now as he no longer plays AoT (at least not on that nick). He's playing RoL and AoE3 now.


FAILURE is not an option, it comes bundled with the software.
The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work ?"
The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work ?"
The graduate with an accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost ?"
The graduate with an arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that ?"
Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

[This message has been edited by Orion_Antares (edited 08-02-2006 @ 04:21 PM).]

cleasterwood
Mortal
posted 03 August 2006 08:11 AM EDT (US)     18 / 25       
When playing Egyptians (mostly Isis) I pump out all the villies I can right from the start and try to advance asap. All but 2 villies are working on food. As Norse I immediately get 1 extra oxcart and 1 extra ulfsark and the rest villies. I put one villie on gold, one on wood, and the rest on food/hunting. I usually get one house and one temple up as soon as I can. When I reach classical, I put down 2-3 barracks up and then build my army. But by the time I've done this, minute 3-5, I'm facing a fight. If they advance before I do, I know it's over already.

I usually don't upgrade MU's right away. I'm getting better with hotkeys. I've heard of Rush attacks, but not sure how they work or how to handle them. What is the best setting for playing Random Maps as a single player to practice for online play? I've tried standard and attacker, but they don't attack like the online players do.

Thanks so much for the advice.

Edited: As Thor I just played a game where at minute 8:42 his stats were 1121 and mine 623. At minute 10:26 they had 2 TC's and an army of 40 men. Needless to say I lost. This is what I'm talking about. Then I get, "Thanks for the rating." And "Go learn to play" as well as smart A$$ taunts, which doesn't help. I ask them how they did it and they say, "I know how to play". It seems to me that people who play online are rude and don't care to help out noobies. They just taunt and act like jerks. What ever happened to people who help other and act respectful? Do today's parents need to have a foot up their butt so they teach their kids kindness and consideration? It's a dying thing in this world, which will result in a horrid future. And don't even ask me about the disgusting conversations that go on at the EOS chats! These people need to have their mouths washed out with SOAP! Sorry for the rant, but I needed to blow steam.


Tickle the Muse within You!

[This message has been edited by cleasterwood (edited 08-03-2006 @ 10:07 AM).]

Sam_Ham
Mortal
posted 03 August 2006 10:33 AM EDT (US)     19 / 25       
what general build order do you use, how many villagers do you get before classic, what time do you aim for classic? Do you stop making villagers at any time? (don't).


Sometimes you need to scare the lambs,
tell tales of evil bad wolves.
Because if there is nothing to fear,
they might think for themselves.
Paperfriend
Mortal
posted 03 August 2006 01:04 PM EDT (US)     20 / 25       

Quote:

Edited: As Thor I just played a game where at minute 8:42 his stats were 1121 and mine 623. At minute 10:26 they had 2 TC's and an army of 40 men. Needless to say I lost. This is what I'm talking about. Then I get, "Thanks for the rating." And "Go learn to play" as well as smart A$$ taunts, which doesn't help. I ask them how they did it and they say, "I know how to play". It seems to me that people who play online are rude and don't care to help out noobies. They just taunt and act like jerks. What ever happened to people who help other and act respectful? Do today's parents need to have a foot up their butt so they teach their kids kindness and consideration? It's a dying thing in this world, which will result in a horrid future. And don't even ask me about the disgusting conversations that go on at the EOS chats! These people need to have their mouths washed out with SOAP! Sorry for the rant, but I needed to blow steam.

Kids are kids! Don't tell me you where nice all the time! About not helping you, they probaly are right: Helping somebody learn to play isn't very rewarding while taking a lot of time.

And don't say I never help people, just go to the design section to check. But that is because I like to do it, keep in mind that helping somebody isn't forced, ok?

P.S: In your rating zone you are dealing with people between 10 and 13, not that old.


Yes, periods and smileys are the same for me
No matter what you say
Silent_Assassin7
Mortal
posted 03 August 2006 04:43 PM EDT (US)     21 / 25       
They probably have their tab set on beginner, cleasterwood.
MR2 Pilot
Mortal
posted 03 August 2006 04:56 PM EDT (US)     22 / 25       

Quote:

P.S: In your rating zone you are dealing with people between 10 and 13, not that old.

http://www.theesa.com/files/2005EssentialFacts.pdf

Note the Average Age of on-line gamers (on page 4)!

Personally, I'm older than dirt!


FAILURE is not an option, it comes bundled with the software.
The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work ?"
The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work ?"
The graduate with an accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost ?"
The graduate with an arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that ?"
Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

[This message has been edited by Orion_Antares (edited 08-03-2006 @ 04:58 PM).]

Paperfriend
Mortal
posted 04 August 2006 04:05 AM EDT (US)     23 / 25       
All the people I know that are in that rating zone (3) are either in that group, or are extremely stupid: Did you think I would ever manage making a 15 year-old believe that menopause is a Jewisch holiday? (And without trying even)

Yes, periods and smileys are the same for me
No matter what you say
Bloodshedder
Mortal
posted 04 August 2006 05:21 AM EDT (US)     24 / 25       
yeah im like that too...do cheats even work on rated games? ive neva tried...
anyway i get killed early too...i play as isis and loki and atlanteans normally own me...atlanteans are just overpowered with the villagers and the everyman hero thing... but for some reason they neva work for me...im a noob with all but isis..i manage to keep my rating around 1600 most the time (after 400 games on this account ).
If people let me get mythic/titan i usually win after about 30mins -2 hr mark depending how tough they are.
but i dont see how some ppl gather resources so quick i mean i have 20 villagers on each and all monuments (i normally win on favourand they have like 40 regular villager count when i have 80 and they bring out millions of men from their base i mean wtf!
and plus i have fully upgraded men (just a few) but one hero can take out like 5 of em...
alot of times i can fight off a not too early attack until mythic or heroic where i probably win but wen i do a nice early attack the other guy resigns sraight away

[This message has been edited by Bloodshedder (edited 08-04-2006 @ 05:25 AM).]

cleasterwood
Mortal
posted 04 August 2006 07:13 AM EDT (US)     25 / 25       
Sam_Ham,
I almost always advance by 4:30 minutes and usually max out villies before I advance or build a house and they are all on food but 2. I try to keep building farms until it's absolutely necessary. Usually I have about 30-45 villies by late Classic.
BO- Temple, 1-2 houses, (monument if Egyptian) by the time I go Classic, I have a granary, mine, wood gatherer, and dock (depending on board and civ).
Classic--2-3 barracks, Armory, if Egyptian I build all my houses immediately and another monument. Sometimes, depending on the map, I build a wall (Highland and Med)
IF I make it to Heroic- Another Barracks, Mighold, the remaining monuments, and a Market.
If I make it to Mythic, they're in trouble. Because by then I have a massive army and a ton of resources. I'll build another Mighold, and research Titan as soon as possible, if at all.

Paperfriend,
If these people are that young they definitely need to have their mouths washed out. I understand them not helping during the game, but after it's all said and done, they could be polite. I understand it's not required of them, but dang be nice about it.

Orion_Antares,
I fall into the average age of a PC player.

Bloodshedder,
That's what I'm talking about. I know how to use the repeat button and do, often. If I make it to Heroic and beyond I too usually take the game. Cheats aren't supposed to work in Rated Games, but I think they do, but not all the time.


Tickle the Muse within You!
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