You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Strategy and General Discussion
Moderated by Yeebaagooon, TAG

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.36 replies
Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Balance project
Bottom
Topic Subject:Balance project
« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
Ancient_tribe
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 03:43 PM EDT (US)         
I know there are many people who took such an initiative without much succes, but I just want like many other people that AOT becomes balance. Aside from balance issues, I want to create also new techs and changing existing ones in order to boost some minor gods and also to make all myth techs useful.
The things I add are some ideas of mine(and I know they aren't that great or don't bring more balance).
Before I start I need two things: first of all, I need someone wh is able to make the patch(changing units stats, making new techs, ect...).
Then I need alot of people who want to test the proposed changes in order which work and which doesn't work(for balance).
If people(esp. experts) have suggestions to change things to make the game more balanced, just tell me.

Here are my suggestions:

Fixes/Simple Moving Stuffall suggested by Vagabond_pip)
- Deconstruct Healing Spring Bug fixed
- Eyes in Forest/Lone Wanderer Put In Temple as well longhouse
- Greek Heroes in Temple :|:|
- Gaia Channels in Economic Guild
- Moved Omniscience so Kronos can now research it
- UW not repairable
- Obelisks buildable on hunt, but won't delete it :| Dunno if you want me to try fixing houses and walls being able to hunt delete as well, took me forever to find that obelisk = outpost 11.
- Hippolyta 2nd Poseidon hero no longer affected by mummy


General changes
- Titans are harder to build(gates cost more, take longer to build)(suggested by Buhani)
- Herioc fleet gives ships a bigger bonus vs myth units(100% instead of 50%).
- Titans are not affected by techs or GPs(like monstrous rage, eclipse, Myhtic rejuvanation, bacchalania, ect...).
- GP's dont affect eachother e.g no an/ecpl or rag/fw(suggested by action).

Norse changes
- Ta's need a small boost: They get their old attack back( 5 instead 4.5), or they got a reduction in training time(2-4 sec) or they get a bigger bonus vs inf or they get -2 training time, +1 range and *1.2 bonus vs. flying units.(last one suggested by vagabond_pip)
- Axe of Muspell gets avaible in classical and is 25% cheaper
- Towers get a higher bonus vs flying units.(suggested by nightrain)

Odin changes
- Odin hillforts are 20% cheaper(old cost of norse hilffort for Odin then).
- Odin jarls get their old bonus back(20% instead of 10%).
- Lone wanderer is better and gives ulfs 20% more speed instead of 10%.

Thor changes
- Thor armoury - 175 wood(suggested by vagabond_pip).
- Pigsticker +1 favor cost(suggested by vagabond_pip)

Loki changes
- Eyes of the hill gives more los and applies for all units.
- Units train slightly faster(15% instead of 10%)(suggested by nightrain)

Heimdall changes
- Artic wind has a 35% cheaper wood cost.
- Undermine is restored and does more damage vs non-atL. tcs(just like aom, they nerfed it, because it would easily kill an attie tc).

Freya changes
- FF doesn't affect gaia forest(suggested by nightrain)
- Make Aurora Borealis +4 attack instead of +6, however make it give valks a LOS bonus.(suggested by nightrain)

Njord Changes
- Restore WW(they have 350 hp instead of 300 hp)
- Wrath of the deep cost 50% less food.

Baldr changes
- Dwarven auger -15 fav.
- Restore firegiants stats for supremacy.
- Hero Ragnorak's move .55 slower and have 0.03 less pierce/hack armour. This means they can still do their push and try to turn tides as a last desperate gamble so it's useful, but they're not such tanks with FW. (suggested by vagabond_pip).

Tyr changes
- Restore Fenrish Wolves stats for supremacy.

Greek changes
- Allow to train heroes in your temple(suggested by Action)
- Ranged heroes get 5-10% more hp(suggested by Nightrain)
- Nerf petrobolis range slightly(suggested by nightrain)

Zeus changes
- Make Bellerophons jumping bonus do slightly less bonus damage(suggested by nightrain)
- Decrease myrmidon bonus vs buildings.(suggested by nightrain)

Poseidon changes
- Lord of horses is 50% cheaper.
- Fishing ships ship 10-15% faster.
- Stables are 25%-30% cheaper instead of 15%.
- The argo is avaible in herioc and favor cost is reduced by 50%.
- Hetaroi's need a boost(bonus damage vs inf or better stats).

Hades changes
- Towers are 20% cheaper.
- Tower upgrades are 30% cheaper.
- Dead Ships can also contribute to summon shades.

Hermes changes
- Spirited charge -15 favor.

Athena changes
- Sarissa and Apis shield -5 favor.

Apollo changes
- Manticores -1 pop, +20% attack
- +10% healing rate, +4 range to healing temple of Apollo(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- Sun ray -10 favor.
- Oracle is 50% cheaper.

Dionysus changes
- Anathophe: -50 food -5 favor.

Artemis changes
- Trierarch -15 favor and -20% hack/pierce/crush vulnerability.

Hera changes
- Medusa -1 pop -5 favor.

Eggies changes
- Mercs are limited to 5, Merc cav to 4. Now they can stop siege/villies if unguarded but not be used as the main army.(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- Nerf ele's( decrease hp or armor)
- Docks cost 60 gold instead of 50 gold(suggested by nightrain)
- Added 2 seconds training time to chariot archers.(suggested by vagabond_pip)

Ra changes
- Ra monuments gather 5-15% faster favor.
- Rain lasts 10 secs more(suggested by nightrain)

Isis changes
- Block radius of monuments is way smaller(suggested by [Vnx]Espanyol)
- Make flood of the nile tech 5 food every 10 seconds as opposed to 1 food per second.(suggested by nightrain)

Set changes
- Feral takes 10 less seconds, and adds 18% HP instead of 10%.(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- Remove animal negative multiplier altogether.(suggested by nightrain)
- Make Pharaoh summoned animals all cost less population.(suggested by nightrain).
- Make animals that appear when you advance cost no population at all(suggested by nightrain).

Anubis changes
- Feet of the Jackal: -50 gold -5 favor

Bast changes
- Hieracosphinx -200 wood -5 favor.

Hathor changes
- Crocodopolis: -50% cost

Sekmet changes
- Stones of the red line is 50% cheaper.
- Ram of the west wing has a 50% cheaper gold cost.
- Bone bows has 50% cheaper wood cost.

Osiris changes
- Funeral barge -200 wood, -5 favor and *2 damage vs all ships instead of only arrow ships.

Atlantian changes
- tc favor rate is 30-50% less in archaic than now, the rate will be restored in classical.
- Destroyers get a higher bonus vs buildings(*7 instead of *5).
- Barracks and Counter-barracks are more expensive.
- Atl. heroes are 20% cheaper, cost less favor.
- Kata's have in classical -40 hp(hp gets restored in herioc)
- Murmillo's train 20% slower(ev. gets restored in herioc)
- Vills train slower(37-38 seconds instead of 35 seconds)(suggested by action)
- You can make 30 instead of 25 atl. vills.(suggested by nightrain).
- Contarius(Lancers keekee) have +5% pierce and hack armour(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- -0.04 wood gather rate, -0.04 gold gather rate, -0.03 crops rate, -0.03 farm rate, -0.03 herdable rate, -0.04 hunt rate, -0.04 gaia rate. Very very small nerf. Lowered values even further.(suggested by vagabond_pip)

Kronos changes
- Siege units are 25% cheaper instead of 10%.
- Myth units are 10% cheaper in classical, 15% in herioc and 20% in mythic.
- Focus costs only 10 wood and 2 favor and gives +10% attack to hero oracles.
- Timeshift cost more(15-20 wood instead of 5)(suggested by nightrain).

Oranos changes
- You can only use shockwave twice instead of three times.
- Sky passages are 25% cheaper.
- Safe passage is 50% cheaper.

Gaia changes
- Fishing ships are 20% cheaper.
- Fishing eco upgrades are also 20% cheaper and can be research in any age.
- Gaia heroes are 30% cheaper.
- Gaia's lush is way bigger.
- Gaia forest is gathered 10% faster instead of 5%(suggested by nightrain)
- Give Gaia a new line of eco upgrades(suggested by nightrain)

Prometheus changes
- Valor only affects two units.

Oceanos changes
- Servants cost -25 gold and - 5 favor.

Leto changes
- Cool down period of spider-lair is just one minute, eggs hatch faster.
- Hesphaestus revenge and Volcanic forge are 60% cheaper.
- Volcanic forge gives -20% hack/pierce vulnerability.
- New tech: 250 gold 250 wood: All myth units cost 25% less favor.

Theia changes
- Poseidons secret -15 favor.

Hyperion changes
- Chaos affects more units(8-9 units instead of 3-4 units), cooldown period is longer.
- Herioc renewal not only allows heroes to regenrate, but they get also +20% hp.
- Gemino is 50% cheaper.
- Satyrs +50 hp
- New tech: 350 wood 300 gold 10 favor: Chiero's and archers do 20% more damage.

Atlas changes
- Eyes of Atlas: Instead giving more los to myth units, myth units have -20% hack/pierce/crush vulnerability.
- Titan shield: Buildings have -20% hack/crush vulnerability instead of -15%.

Helios changes
- Heka gigantes' special doesn't affect heroes.
- Mirror towers do more damage and have bonus damage vs myth units.

So these are my suggestions. Some might be too good, but I want to hear your opinion about it.

And please give constructive criticism so we can develop an ok patch.

[This message has been edited by Ancient_tribe (edited 07-21-2007 @ 08:34 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
invent00r
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 03:54 PM EDT (US)     1 / 36       
Is there anything that actually gets expensivier?

That many changes wouldn't make the game more balanced.
Au contraire, It would make the game unbalanced and played at a much faster rate.

My Work: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

WIP: Master XS Battle Micro AI
Paused: AI (%4.247)
Os segredos são de quem os souber guardar.
Bingo Little
Mortal
(id: Medusasson)
posted 20 July 2007 03:56 PM EDT (US)     2 / 36       
I don't like bolt instantly killing a titan.


░█▀▀ ░█▀█ ░█ ░█▀▀ ░
░█▀▀ ░█▀▀ ░█ ░█ ░░░
░▀▀▀ ░▀ ░░░▀ ░▀▀▀ ░
iPosts
Banned
posted 20 July 2007 03:57 PM EDT (US)     3 / 36       
A player made patch was made a while back.

But the patch wasn't distrubuted by the game manufacturer, ES, so not everyone gets it, so it didn't work out.
yoma
Banned
posted 20 July 2007 04:02 PM EDT (US)     4 / 36       
WTF, u made everything cheaper and nerfed like eggy and made everything eles OP. WTF!
Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 04:11 PM EDT (US)     5 / 36       
Heavy Odin Jarls ("Great Jarls) with Lore of the Rings beat even Ra's Heavy Camelry(!). Takes 22 seconds for a Jarl to kill a camel. Takes 24 for the camel to kill the Jarl.

Jarls don't exactly suck, at least for Odin they don't
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 20 July 2007 04:17 PM EDT (US)     6 / 36       
Without even reading it, I can say that changing that many things is suicide and unnecessary. Look at the previous changes in the patch history - the longest one only had about 20 changes.

The thing is, changing one small thing can usually have a lot of impact on the game - if you change all of this stuff it's almost certainly gonna be too much (i.e. make Set too powerful, Isis too weak etc.). Remember, this is without reading it.

It's interesting to note that many changes that were made by ES were eventually changed back (Ra's nerf, Set's boost, Greek nerfing etc.) in later patches because they were too harsh.


Here are my suggestions:

General changes
- Titans have only 70% hack, pierce, crush armor and titan gates are 50% more expensive or titans have -1000 hp and have 85% hack/pierce and crush armor.
- Herioc fleet gives ships a bigger bonus vs myth units(100% instead of 50%).
- Titans are not affected by techs or GPs


Titans are FINE. There is no need to make these changes, especially as all of these are WAY too harsh. Dropping the armour slightly might be fine, but making gates even more expensive will do nothing since you normally have so many spare resources at that stage in the game. The HP is also fine. Titans are usually very easy to counter if left to crush alone, but you have to use MICRO! - and there's no reason why you can't get one too.

Heroic fleet I think I'd agree with. Either that, or make it cheaper.


Norse changes
- Hersirs train 6 secs faster(from 23 to 17)
- Ta's need a small boost: They get their old attack back( 5 instead 4.5), they got a reduction in training time(2-4 sec) or they get a bigger bonus vs inf.
- Axe of Muspell gets avaible in classical and is 25% cheaper


Why do Hersirs need to train faster? TA are fine. They are COUNTER units, and they do very well against infantry, when in decent numbers (which they should be - you wouldn't use 4 toxotes alone, so why use 4 TA alone). Not sure why you need Axe of Muspell in Classical...do Caladrias scare you?


Odin changes
- Odin hillforts are 20% cheaper(old cost of norse hilffort for Odin then).
- Odin jarls get their old bonus back(20% instead of 10%).
- Lone wanderer is better and gives ulfs bonus damage vs. cav.


Odin IMO needs no changes at all. All of these suggestions would make him too powerful.


Loki changes
- Eyes of the hill gives more los and apllies for all units.


Either one or the other - what you suggest is overkill, again.


Freya changes
- Restore thundering hoves(20% hp to jarls instead of 10%).


Unnecessary, and if you got this AND Odin's bonus back, that would be ridiculous.

Heimdall changes
- Artic wind has a 25%-50% cheaper wood cost.


Not familiar with this God, but from what I see when playing, he's already great and popular Minor God. I doubt he needs a boost?


Njord Changes
- Restore WW(they have 300 hp instead of 250 hp)
- Wrath of the deep cost 50% more food, but gives kraken double hack damage and +10 crush damage(on top of the hp increase).


Too powerful again.


Baldr changes
- Dwarven auger -15 fav.
- Restore firegiants stats for supremacy.


Fire Giants are already really powerful, not sure why they need a boost.


Tyr changes
- Restore Fenrish Wolves stats for supremacy.


Maybe. I don't see wolves being used too often.


Zeus changes
- Bolt can instantly kill a titan.


No way. I can guess that you hate Titans. Do you not see that the changes you are making are way unfair?


Poseidon changes
- Lord of horses gives 6 los instead of 4 los and is 50% cheaper.
- Fishing ships ship 10-15% faster.
- Docks are 10% cheaper.
- Stables are 25%-30% cheaper instead of 15%.
- The argo is avaible in herioc and favor cost is reduced by 50%.
- Hetaroi's need a boost(bonus damage vs inf or better stats).


Heratoi could do with an HP boost I think. Lord of Horses boost wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it's very necessary either. Fishing ship bonus: no. Stables are fine, Docks are fine, Argo could also do with a boost since again I hardly see it used.


Hades changes
- Towers are 20% cheaper.
- Tower upgrades are 30% cheaper.
- Dead Ships can also contribute to summon shades.


No, no and not sure why.


Hermes changes
- Spirited charge -15 favor.


Not sure.


Athena changes
- Sarissa and Apis shield -5 favor.


Don't think this is necessary really.


Apollo changes
- Manticores -1 pop, 20% attack
- Sun ray -20 favor.
- Oracle is 50% cheaper.


Manticores are like Petsuchos, they don't need a change. Sun Ray does cost a lot of favour, but it shouldn't be below 30 really. Oracle...not used much anyway.


Dionysus changes
- Anathophe: -50 food -5 favor.


Not sure what this tech is, hardly ever play Greek.

Artemis changes
- Trierarch -15 favor and -20% hack/pierce/crush vulnerability.


Overkill again.


Hera changes
- Medusa -1 pop -10 favor.


I think this could work, but not both.

Eggies changes
- Nerf merc.(more expensive or shorter lifespan or lower build limit)
- Nerf ele's( decrease hp or armor)


Both are unnecessary - Elephants were actually BOOSTED in an early patch. I've seen elephants die badly a lot, they're not OP. They cost a lot of resources, as do Mercenaries. Gold starve is quite vital against Egypt.


Ra changes
- Restore bonus to migdol units(+20% hp instead of 10% hp)
- Ra monuments gather 5-15% faster favor.


Ra's Migdol is already great, the monument thing might work, but anything more than 10% is overkill.


Anubis changes
- Feet of the Jackal: -50 gold -5 favor


Maybe

Bast changes
- Hieracosphinx -200 wood -5 favor.


Doesn't it already cost hardly anything? It was lowered in a patch ages ago. Maybe you play the original AOM?


Hathor changes
- Crocodopolis: -50% cost


It is quite expensive and not that useful, BUT Egypt doesn't need much wood and I've never though it was too expensive.


Sekmet changes
- Stones of the red line is 50% cheaper.
- Ram of the west wing has a 50% cheaper gold cost.
- Bone bows has 50% cheaper wood cost.


All three are too much.


Osiris changes
- Funeral barge -200 wood, -5 favor and *2 damage vs all ships instead of only arrow ships.


I never see this used, so this could work.

Atlantian changes
- TC favor rate is 30-50% less in archaic than now, the rate will be restored in classical.
- Destroyers get a higher bonus vs buildings(*8 instead of *5).
- Barracks and Counter-barracks are more expensive.
- Atl. heroes are 20% cheaper, cost less favor and don't take additional pop
- Kata's have in classical -40 hp(hp gets restored in herioc)
- Murmillo's train 20% slower(ev. gets restored in herioc)


OK, so you don't play the original AOM...first suggestion is a unique one that isn't bad at all. Would nerf the rush a bit too much though - 20% less would be good. Destroyers are already good against buildings, don't see a bonus is necessary. Barracks and Counter Barracks are fine, in line with other Civs. Heros should cost 1 extra pop, but they should be cheaper. Especially favour-wise. Katas already had a big HP nerf, they're fine IMO. Murmillos train about as fast as other infantry I believe already.

Kronos changes
- Siege units are 25% cheaper instead of 10%.
- Myth units are 10% cheaper in classical, 15% in herioc and 20% in mythic.
- Focus costs only 10 wood and 2 favor and gives +10% attack to hero oracles.


25% is overkill, but these are actually good suggestions.


Oranos changes
- You can only use shockwave twice instead of three times.
- Sky passages are 25% cheaper.
- Safe passage is 50% cheaper.


Not sure about shockwave. Sky Passages aren't used much so those suggestions are good.

Gaia changes
- Fishing ships are 20% cheaper.
- Fishing eco upgrades are also 20% cheaper and can be research in any age.
- Gaia heroes are 30% cheaper.
- Gaia's lush is way bigger.
- Channels becomes more expensive(200 food 200 gold 12 favor), but aside +20% more speed, citizens gather all resources +10% faster.


Channels isn't that useful, but it is an Archaic tech. Don't think she needs even better villagers. Heroes are her main problem. Lush can't be too much bigger, and heroes being 30% in addition to making all Atlantean heroes cheaper is too much. Fishing suggestions are OK.

Prometheus changes
- Valor only affects two units.


Nah, 3 seems fine to me.


Oceanos changes
- Caladria becomes more expensive, but get a small pierce attack and has a small bonus vs villagers.
- Servants cost -25 gold and - 5 favor.


Not sure about servants, Caladria shouldn't have attack especially in Classical. Maybe the GP can be boosted slightly again.


Leto changes
- Cool down period of spider-lair is just one minute, eggs hatch faster and can kill heroes.
- Hesphaestus revenge and Volcanic forge are 60% cheaper.
- Volcanic forge gives -20% hack/pierce vulnerability.
- New tech: 250 gold 250 wood: All myth units cost 25% less favor.


Eggs shouldn't hatch faster - they're not meant to be used when enemies are around anyway. Recharge time is a bit too long, but one minute is too short. Can kill heroes?? No way. Automaton upgrades should be a bit cheaper IMO, but not 60%!! New tech won't happen in a patch anyway.


Rheia changes
- Rheia's gift: -50% instead -25%.


Nope, too powerful.


Theia changes
- Poseidons secret -15 favor.


Might as well, Contarius never get used anyway.

Hyperion changes
- Chaos affects more units(8-9 units instead of 3-4 units), cooldown period is longer.
- Herioc renewal not only allows heroes to regenrate, but they get also +20% hp.
- Gemino is 50% cheaper.
- Satyrs +100 hp
- New tech: 350 wood 300 gold 10 favor: Chiero's and archers do 20% more damage.


8-9 is way too many, you could cast it in an army and have them all kill each other. Heroic Renewal idea isn't bad, could work. Satyrs need more attack, not HP. New tech = no.


Atlas changes
- Eyes of Atlas: Instead giving more los to myth units, myth units have -20% hack/pierce/crush vulnerability.
- Titan shield: Buildings have -30% hack/crush vulnerability instead of -15%.


Eyes of Atlas is fairly pointless - should be cheaper, not changed. Titan Shield is already great, -30% is too much (remember base Crush Armour is 5%, so any improvement is a great one).

Helios changes
- Heka gigantes' special doesn't affect heroes.
- Mirror towers do more damage, you can build more of them and have bonus damage vs myth units. Also more range.


Heka suggestion...not sure. Not sure how Mirror towers compare to normal towers, but all of those boosts is too much. One of them maybe.





You're trying to change too much - and you're boosting like everything! If everything is boosted, then everything's the same as it was anyway! A few small changes will work wonders. If I can think of any, I'll reply later with some small suggestions.

[This message has been edited by DragonQ (edited 07-20-2007 @ 04:22 PM).]

Ancient_tribe
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 07:25 PM EDT (US)     7 / 36       
WTF, u made everything cheaper and nerfed like eggy and made everything eles OP. WTF!
I only made some techs cheaper which aren't used because there are too expensive or the benefits don't justify the cost.
Titans are FINE. There is no need to make these changes, especially as all of these are WAY too harsh. Dropping the armour slightly might be fine, but making gates even more expensive will do nothing since you normally have so many spare resources at that stage in the game. The HP is also fine. Titans are usually very easy to counter if left to crush alone, but you have to use MICRO! - and there's no reason why you can't get one too.!
Any decent player will accompany his titan with army so you will get slaughtered.
Norse have some problems to get out a titan because they need military to build their titan gate(esp loki who doesn't have Baldr.)
Why do Hersirs need to train faster? TA are fine. They are COUNTER units, and they do very well against infantry, when in decent numbers (which they should be - you wouldn't use 4 toxotes alone, so why use 4 TA alone). Not sure why you need Axe of Muspell in Classical...do Caladrias scare you?
Ta suck if you compare it with other inf counters in terms of training time and damage output. All counter inf. (except the chiero) train way faster than a ta and do way more damage to infantry than ta's. Ta's got also owned by alot of units so I don't think it would unfair to boost the ta. On that way they can perform better vs other infantry(and actually beat murms quite well), but can still be owned by alot of units.
I placed the axe of muspell in classical so that if an atl. opp. reach herioc faster than you and spam birds you can actually defend themselves vs them(Remind that norse are the only civ that need a tech to be ok vs flying myth units.)
Odin IMO needs no changes at all. All of these suggestions would make him too powerful.
Lol, how is odin supposed to counter mass ele's and don't say jarls, because FU odin jarls lose vs FU Thoth ele's pop wise. You have three possibities: nerf ele's, or give odin something that can beat those ele's, but something has to be done.
And the hillfort reducting cost doesn't seem such unfair to me, becasue this emphasise his bonussen more and allow people to use more hillforts units.
I admitt all three changes are way too much, but I think atleast one should be applied.
Unnecessary, and if you got this AND Odin's bonus back, that would be ridiculous.
Maybe you're right on that one. Thundering hoves is still useful for raiders, valks and also for jarls. I'll scrap that one.
Not familiar with this God, but from what I see when playing, he's already great and popular Minor God. I doubt he needs a boost?
It's not really about boosting heimdall, but to make sure that people actually research the tech(it gives +10%hp/speed to longboats). Now they don't because the benefits don't cover the costs.
One of the main ideas of this patch was that less used or worthless techs become more interesting to research because they got improved or get cheaper so it's actuually worth to spend resources to that tech.
Too powerful again.
In aom WW have(and still have)300 hp per tree, but in aot they nerfed it for unknown reasons. In aom 300 hp ww were never a major problem, so I don't see why it is in tt.
And about the krakens, it just another reason so that people would actually research the myth upgrade, because now(unless you make alot of krakens) it's always more interesting to make another kraken instead of making another kraken. Now the tech will be worthwile to research.
Fire Giants are already really powerful, not sure why they need a boost.
Fire giants were nerfed because they were OP in DM when you played loki choosing Hel. They were never an issue in supremacy and if you restored them(not in DM of course) they would very good norse titan counters.
No way. I can guess that you hate Titans. Do you not see that the changes you are making are way unfair?
Well it gives zeus an advantage to kill titans(if he didn't use bolt early on).
Problem is with titans that they are way too good. Even if I outplay completely, I you decide to make a titan, it's probably gg for me and all my effort was for nothing. Bolt is supposed to instant kill any units so why not the biggest of all: the titan.
Heratoi could do with an HP boost I think. Lord of Horses boost wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it's very necessary either. Fishing ship bonus: no. Stables are fine, Docks are fine, Argo could also do with a boost since again I hardly see it used.
Lord of horses is enver get used by anyone, I try to make it more attractive.
The sea upgrades are because Poseidon supposed to be the god of SEA , yet his advantages on sea aren't that good. The cheaper docks are maybe unnecessairy, but the faster fishing would help posseidon to advance quickly or need less fishing ships to get the same amount of food(so he can spare some wood from which he needs loads of).
The stable cheaper cost is restored, because they nerfed it for an unknown reason and 15 wood less per stable won't make him op.
Manticores are like Petsuchos, they don't need a change. Sun Ray does cost a lot of favour, but it shouldn't be below 30 really. Oracle...not used much anyway.
Not really, manticores are on all deparments weaker. More pop, weaker attack, doesn't have 100% accuracy, less range. They overall suck for their cost and pop space so a small boost isn't that bad.
Ever tried to get fast 40 favor with hades without the aphodite tech? The tech is ok, but the high favor cost is way too high too and tech is only good for toxotes(hades doesn't have centaurs mostly don't make many manticores. For Zeus it is more interested to get, becuase he gets faster favor and has also acces to hermes, but still...)
Overkill again.
Not really. Now the tech costs 300 gold and 40 fav. and gives tiremes -20% crush vulnerabily. I don't think there is a hades or poseidon player willing to pay so much favor for such a tech. With my reducing and improvement the tech way actually been worthwile to get.
Both are unnecessary - Elephants were actually BOOSTED in an early patch. I've seen elephants die badly a lot, they're not OP. They cost a lot of resources, as do Mercenaries. Gold starve is quite vital against Egypt.
Try beating full up thoth ele's with norse(thor has a bigger chance). GG.
When the game drags to mythic they have a large trade routes which gives them infintiev gold and they can spam merc like hell. If they use merc for defence that's alright, but in many games you see that eggie players use them as a free pop offensive army which extremely hard to beat.
Doesn't it already cost hardly anything? It was lowered in a patch ages ago. Maybe you play the original AOM?
Maybe I used the wrong stats, I have to check on that one.
It is quite expensive and not that useful, BUT Egypt doesn't need much wood and I've never though it was too expensive.
You gave the reason, it's too expensive for it's benefits. The cost reduction will make it more affordable and more interesting to get as eggie.
OK, so you don't play the original AOM...first suggestion is a unique one that isn't bad at all. Would nerf the rush a bit too much though - 20% less would be good. Destroyers are already good against buildings, don't see a bonus is necessary. Barracks and Counter Barracks are fine, in line with other Civs. Heros should cost 1 extra pop, but they should be cheaper. Especially favour-wise. Katas already had a big HP nerf, they're fine IMO. Murmillos train about as fast as other infantry I believe already.
Destroyers suck against buildings and unlike other siege units they deal hack damage which buildings have more armor for. With they higher multiplyer it's a bit compensated.
Kata's had a 5 hp nerf which isn't much and it's only for classical.
Murmillo's have almost the same stats as hoplites, yet they train 20% faster(12sec vs 15 sec). My nerf will make it balanced and weaken atties in classical.
Channels isn't that useful, but it is an Archaic tech. Don't think she needs even better villagers. Heroes are her main problem. Lush can't be too much bigger, and heroes being 30% in addition to making all Atlantean heroes cheaper is too much. Fishing suggestions are OK.
In later game atties villies suck, because they don't benefit much from the eco techs like other civs and they take 75 pop(if you make all 25 vills) but gather like 62.5 vills so it would help them actually. Lush is atm not really usefull, if it's a bit bigger than it become usefull to stop rushers.
The 30% hero reduction is only for gaia, 20% is for kronos and oranos.
Eggs shouldn't hatch faster - they're not meant to be used when enemies are around anyway. Recharge time is a bit too long, but one minute is too short. Can kill heroes?? No way. Automaton upgrades should be a bit cheaper IMO, but not 60%!! New tech won't happen in a patch anyway.
The automaton upgrades aren't interesting to get in any situation. Remember that they decreased the upgrades for sphinx much in order that people would get the upgrades.
New tech is not so hard to put in a patch so it's possible.
8-9 is way too many, you could cast it in an army and have them all kill each other. Heroic Renewal idea isn't bad, could work. Satyrs need more attack, not HP. New tech = no.
Chaos is one of the worst gps atm so a boost was necessairy. And even if you cast chaos, you aren't sure they attack the opponent, they can still attack you so I think it's balanced. I think it also needed in order that atties don't pick rheia/theia all the time.
Satyr attack is fine, esp. with upgrade(which got cheaper btw), but hp could be good so they would survive longer.
Eyes of Atlas is fairly pointless - should be cheaper, not changed. Titan Shield is already great, -30% is too much (remember base Crush Armour is 5%, so any improvement is a great one).
Even if it's cheaper it still suck, I think my other suggestion isn't a bad one.
You're right, maybe 30% is too much, well let's say change it to 20%.

But I really appreciate you took time to look to the changes and give comments on it.

[This message has been edited by Ancient_tribe (edited 07-20-2007 @ 07:30 PM).]

Pdroo
Banned
posted 20 July 2007 08:38 PM EDT (US)     8 / 36       
hey man, no offense but really I dont think this is gonna work...

Leave the game as it is, try to play it with its OP Gods (isis) , with cons and pros ....
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 20 July 2007 08:58 PM EDT (US)     9 / 36       
Any decent player will accompany his titan with army so you will get slaughtered.
Norse have some problems to get out a titan because they need military to build their titan gate(esp loki who doesn't have Baldr.)
Don't forget that Norse also build their Titan Gates the fastest - Egypt make theirs the slowest, by a long way. I always wondered why they removed the ability to empower it with Ra Priests, SOO and the Secondary Pharaoh instead of giving it to normal Pharaohs, because it's fairly unfair.

Titans are meant to be a game ender. If you cannot stop the gate then either you're already dead, or you're stuck in a stalemate and you can make your own Titan.
Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 09:02 PM EDT (US)     10 / 36       
I thought attys were the quickest titan builders.
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 20 July 2007 09:09 PM EDT (US)     11 / 36       
Not per population.
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 09:10 PM EDT (US)     12 / 36       
First of all congrats on putting time and effort into this! However, the new patch idea has been tried before,and even the one that was carefully planned out(Dap's)sucked hard. However,Dap was smart and wanted to keep his first patch small,in this postI can see you've been overly ambitious. Also,you're better of catering for the needs of 1800+ players when you think about the things that need improvement. You're changes tbh would simply ruin the game for anyone 1700+. Don't mean to break you're heart but everything here is too extreme and unfair :S(

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 20 July 2007 09:34 PM EDT (US)     13 / 36       
By the looks of the changes in DAP's patch, that was still a lot of changes. I really think if there were to be a patch there would/should be under 10 changes. That SHOULD be enough to improve game balance if it is done correctly.
Superusername
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 10:34 PM EDT (US)     14 / 36       
I think the only thing that really should be nefred is mercenaries and maybe elephants by a little bit
Shanks13
Rogue Agent
posted 20 July 2007 11:08 PM EDT (US)     15 / 36       
I won't bother to read most of the long posts I get the picture. However, it is not likely that such a patch will ever be created/widely distributed.

The problem with patches is that they end up making the OP civ terrible UP, and another civ just gets OPed.

Another problem is that not everyone gets their way. A lot of people would be annoyed by the titan changes, while the others would be pleased. It's not that hard to stop a gate anyway.

BlackSun88
Banned
posted 20 July 2007 11:21 PM EDT (US)     16 / 36       
Any decent player will accompany his titan with army so you will get slaughtered.
Norse have some problems to get out a titan because they need military to build their titan gate(esp loki who doesn't have Baldr.)



Ummmm........Wtf?

"Any Decent player will accompany his titan army, so you will get slaughtered"

-not true. 2 areas of attack: one with titan and other with seige and such is just as effective.

"Norse have some problems to get out a titan because they need military to build their titan gate(esp loki who doesn't have Baldr.)"

-..... i don't know what to say. It's kind of true, kind of false.
Shanks13
Rogue Agent
posted 20 July 2007 11:37 PM EDT (US)     17 / 36       
I disagree with the Norse statement. It would be dangerous to attack an enemy while constructing a gate unless you are absolutely sure the enemy isn't going to hit you while they can or that you will win the fight. Building with infantry makes it easy to defend and build.

Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 20 July 2007 11:44 PM EDT (US)     18 / 36       
It's not false that Loki suxx to build titan gate. He just can't do it. If he can, he has already won before he even begins building it. No way can you hold off the enemy army with half your army while building the titan gate with your other half.

[This message has been edited by Caboose_Nor (edited 07-20-2007 @ 11:46 PM).]

ardica
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 02:20 AM EDT (US)     19 / 36       
im down with the gaia changes lol -20% less cost for heros ill be hero turmae raiding my ass off
yoma
Banned
posted 21 July 2007 02:23 AM EDT (US)     20 / 36       
new aom acroymn,

htrmao

(hero turma raiding my ass off)

[This message has been edited by Yoma (edited 07-21-2007 @ 02:23 AM).]

Salient
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 02:53 AM EDT (US)     21 / 36       
Action made a good reply to this topic at agesanc. He said what is needed is:


GP's dont affect eachother e.g no an/ecpl or rag/fw

train greek heroes from temple

make attie vill train time up to 37 or 38seconds from 35

remove isis gp blocking monuments

[This message has been edited by Salient (edited 07-21-2007 @ 03:02 AM).]

ardica
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 03:07 AM EDT (US)     22 / 36       
why make cit making longer that by very even tho its not much its just to long for 1 citizen and wat atty player doesnt enjoy a good htrmao? lol
Out Reach
Mortal
(id: newreach268)
posted 21 July 2007 03:21 AM EDT (US)     23 / 36       
Titans are not affected by techs or GPs
Bolt can instantly kill a titan
contridiction....

Allmost all of your changes make everything far to powerfull. and have also rendered Titans usless. I mean You want titans to be EVEN MORE expensive, and then you want them to be killed by an archanic god power? The point being if as you put it " i outplayed them the whole game" well then while they are building the thing YOU ATTACK THEM and kill it, or you build your own. If they can build it safly you didn't outplay them as you let them build it and they outplayed you.

The only change i can agree on would be
Gaia heroes are 30% cheaper
even then 30% is to much.

If you don't like titans, and you want all the units stats to go back to what they used to be, play AOM without the titans.

Out Reach
The guy who writes the erotic fan fiction in Yeebaagoon's signature
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 03:34 AM EDT (US)     24 / 36       
"remove isis gp blocking monuments"

Lol? That's rash Maybe put them down to a GP blocking range of 15/20.

"General changes
- Titans have only 70% hack, pierce, crush armor and titan gates are 50% more expensive or titans have -1000 hp and have 85% hack/pierce and crush armor.
- Herioc fleet gives ships a bigger bonus vs myth units(100% instead of 50%).
- Titans are not affected by techs or GPs"

Heroic fleet is fine as it as, and so are titans. Titan's not affected by techs or GP's I could probably agree with.

"Norse changes
- Hersirs train 6 secs faster(from 23 to 17)
- Ta's need a small boost: They get their old attack back( 5 instead 4.5), they got a reduction in training time(2-4 sec) or they get a bigger bonus vs inf.
- Axe of Muspell gets avaible in classical and is 25% cheaper"

Hersirs are fine, by making them train faster you're gonna have loki hersir rush problems =/ Ta's are fine as they are, although they do need a slightly bigger bonus vs. hoplites/myrmidons/fanatcis (adressed in Dap's patch)
And what civ has offensive aerial units in the classical age? No point in putting Axe of Muspell in the classical age :S

"Odin changes
- Odin hillforts are 20% cheaper(old cost of norse hilffort for Odin then).
- Odin jarls get their old bonus back(20% instead of 10%).
- Lone wanderer is better and gives ulfs bonus damage vs. cav."

Maybe... you're really making the Odin FH op here though. And even if lone wanderor did give a bonus vs cav, ulsarks would still be no match for elephants, even if it was a 2X bonus :S

"Loki changes
- Eyes of the hill gives more los and apllies for all units."

This seems ok I guess.

"Freya changes
- Restore thundering hoves(20% hp to jarls instead of 10%)."

Again, OP jarls? This tech is fine.

"Heimdall changes
- Artic wind has a 25%-50% cheaper wood cost."
This tech is fine how it is.

"Njord Changes
- Restore WW(they have 350 hp instead of 300 hp)
- Wrath of the deep cost 50% more food, but gives kraken double hack damage and +10 crush damage(on top of the hp increase)."

WW is good as it is. Kraken's are OP as it is. Why do you want to make them more OP?

"Baldr changes
- Dwarven auger -15 fav.
- Restore firegiants stats for supremacy."

Firegiants are OP as it is, and Norse players have no problem with getting favour.

"Tyr changes
- Restore Fenrish Wolves stats for supremacy."
They are fine as it is.

"Zeus changes
- Bolt can instantly kill a titan."
Lol this is the most terrible suggestion ever.

"Poseidon changes
- Lord of horses gives 6 los instead of 4 los and is 50% cheaper.
- Fishing ships ship 10-15% faster.
- Docks are 10% cheaper.
- Stables are 25%-30% cheaper instead of 15%.
- The argo is avaible in herioc and favor cost is reduced by 50%.
- Hetaroi's need a boost(bonus damage vs inf or better stats)."

Lord of the horses I can agree with, fishing ships maybe I could agree with, docks 10% cheaper is pushing it, but seems ok. Stavles 15% cheaper are fine, don't overdo it Tbh how OP do you want Possy to be on water? Water bonus after water bonus... the argo in heroic I guess that's good, the favour cost 50% cheaper is probably a tad overdoing it. Hetaroi probably just need a tiny bit better HP and hack armour.

"Hades changes
- Towers are 20% cheaper.
- Tower upgrades are 30% cheaper.
- Dead Ships can also contribute to summon shades."
I guess dead ships is good, you've overdone it terribly with towers. Hades can easily tower spam if he wants to as it is. And giving 4 bonus to towers is just ridiculous. (Extra hp, attack, cheaper, cheaper to upgrade =/)

"Hermes changes
- Spirited charge -15 favor."
Lol op? This tech is fine as it is.

"Athena changes
- Sarissa and Apis shield -5 favor."
This tech is fine as it is.

"Apollo changes
- Manticores -1 pop, 20% attack
- Sun ray -20 favor.
- Oracle is 50% cheaper."
Maybe just make manticores cost 1- pop, their stats are fine. Sun ray is affordable, and so is oracle. Why on earth are you making all the techs cheaper? Greeks have the most controlled way of gaining favour! And Zeus players have no trouble with favour.

"Dionysus changes
- Anathophe: -50 food -5 favor."
This tech is fine as it is. This tech is OP, don't make it cheaper =/

"Artemis changes
- Trierarch -15 favor and -20% hack/pierce/crush vulnerability."
Maybe don't add the favour deduction, although I doubt ppl would want to use this anyway in mythic when water is normally negligable.

"Hera changes
- Medusa -1 pop -10 favor."
LOL Zeus player have no problems with favour, Medusa's -1 pop would probably make them a little OP.

"Eggies changes
- Nerf merc.(more expensive or shorter lifespan or lower build limit)
- Nerf ele's( decrease hp or armor)"
Mercs are good as they are, it's lategame when they become a problem. You will probalby need a lower build limit? Ele's are fine as they are, it's the counter units that suck. And anyway they are fine until the Thoth upgrade. If you were going to nerf them don't overdo it.

"Ra changes
- Ra monuments gather 5-15% faster favor."
Lol, his monuments are already cheaper, don't think he needs a faster favour bonus.

"Anubis changes
- Feet of the Jackal: -50 gold -5 favor"
I guess?

"Bast changes
- Hieracosphinx -200 wood -5 favor."
This tech is fine as it is.

"Hathor changes
- Crocodopolis: -50% cost"
I guess.

"Sekmet changes
- Stones of the red line is 50% cheaper.
- Ram of the west wing has a 50% cheaper gold cost.
- Bone bows has 50% cheaper wood cost."
Leave these techs as they are.

"Osiris changes
- Funeral barge -200 wood, -5 favor and *2 damage vs all ships instead of only arrow ships."
Terrible idea.

"Atlantian changes
- tc favor rate is 30-50% less in archaic than now, the rate will be restored in classical.
- Destroyers get a higher bonus vs buildings(*8 instead of *5).
- Barracks and Counter-barracks are more expensive.
- Atl. heroes are 20% cheaper, cost less favor and don't take additional pop
- Kata's have in classical -40 hp(hp gets restored in herioc)
- Murmillo's train 20% slower(ev. gets restored in herioc)"

Favour idea is interesting, destroyers with a higher bonus vs. buildings? Halarious they are OP as they are. Barracks and counter barracks are fine, ATL heroes are fine, don't make them more expensive, mayne just less pop, Kata's with less HP is silly, and murmillo 20% train rate is overdoing it.

"Kronos changes
- Siege units are 25% cheaper instead of 10%.
- Myth units are 10% cheaper in classical, 15% in herioc and 20% in mythic.
- Focus costs only 10 wood and 2 favor and gives +10% attack to hero oracles."

10% faster is fine, focus I guess is still useless.

"Oranos changes
- You can only use shockwave twice instead of three times.
- Sky passages are 25% cheaper.
- Safe passage is 50% cheaper."

Shockwave is good, sky passage upgrades are Ok I guess.

"Gaia changes
- Fishing ships are 20% cheaper.
- Fishing eco upgrades are also 20% cheaper and can be research in any age.
- Gaia heroes are 30% cheaper.
- Gaia's lush is way bigger.
- Channels becomes more expensive(200 food 200 gold 12 favor), but aside +20% more speed, citizens gather all resources +10% faster. "

Her eco is FINE, screw the fishing ships cheaper. Making fishing eco ups cheaper is smart IMO, although making them research in any age is silly. Gaia heroes 30% cheaper is ok I guess. Gaia's lush is fine and hell annoying as it is. Channel's is fine. All resources 10% faster is OP.
Prometheus changes

"- Valor only affects two units."
The current one is fine.

"Oceanos changes
- Caledria becomes more expensive, but get a small pierce attack and has a small bonus vs villagers.
- Servants cost -25 gold and - 5 favor."

Lol bonus vs vills, don't make caledria have any attack at all. Servants change is ok I guess.

"Leto changes
- Cool down period of spider-lair is just one minute, eggs hatch faster and can kill heroes.
- Hesphaestus revenge and Volcanic forge are 60% cheaper.
- Volcanic forge gives -20% hack/pierce vulnerability.
- New tech: 250 gold 250 wood: All myth units cost 25% less favor."

Lol eggs can kill heroes? Nah leave heroes immune to myth specials. Leto with her new tech is OP. A kronos player will have Heka Gigantus coming out the wazoo :S

"Rheia changes
- Rheia's gift: -50% instead -25%."
OP stop making these ridiculous favour bonus'

"Theia changes
- Poseidons secret -15 favor."

I guess.

"Hyperion changes
- Chaos affects more units(8-9 units instead of 3-4 units), cooldown period is longer.
- Herioc renewal not only allows heroes to regenrate, but they get also +20% hp.
- Gemino is 50% cheaper.
- Satyrs +100 hp
- New tech: 350 wood 300 gold 10 favor: Chiero's and archers do 20% more damage."

8-9 is too many. Maybe 6-7 is ok. Heroic renewal is fine as it is. New tech is silly.

"Atlas changes
- Eyes of Atlas: Instead giving more los to myth units, myth units have -20% hack/pierce/crush vulnerability.
- Titan shield: Buildings have -30% hack/crush vulnerability instead of -15%."

Again, OP myth unit upgrades, not only are you trying to make them easily massable, but now you want them to have like 80% armour. Titan shield is fine as it is, don't make it more OP.

"Helios changes
- Heka gigantes' special doesn't affect heroes.
- Mirror towers do more damage, you can build more of them and have bonus damage vs myth units. Also more range."

Ok I like the Heka Gigantes upgrade, mirror towers are fine as they are... the bonus vs myth would be interesting, not sure if it would be useful, considering most mu's have good pierce armour.

There's my 2 cents ^^

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

Ancient_tribe
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 08:35 AM EDT (US)     25 / 36       
I made alot of modifications in my my suggestions so what do you think now.
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 09:31 AM EDT (US)     26 / 36       
"Fixes/Simple Moving Stuffall suggested by Vagabond_pip)
- Deconstruct Healing Spring Bug fixed
- Eyes in Forest/Lone Wanderer Put In Temple as well longhouse
- Greek Heroes in Temple :|:|
- Gaia Channels in Economic Guild
- Moved Omniscience so Kronos can now research it
- UW not repairable
- Obelisks buildable on hunt, but won't delete it :| Dunno if you want me to try fixing houses and walls being able to hunt delete as well, took me forever to find that obelisk = outpost 11.
- Hippolyta 2nd Poseidon hero no longer affected by mummy"

Almost all of these are solid. I'm not sure if you could stop buildings Hunt deleting, you'd have to change like the basis of the game (I think? I don't have a clue) Also Kronos with Omniscience might be too OP, I mean timeshift anywhere on the map? I think Kronos can live without Omniscience.

"General changes
- Titans are harder to build(gates cost more, take longer to build)(suggested by Buhani)
- Herioc fleet gives ships a bigger bonus vs myth units(100% instead of 50%)."

I still don't like these, Titan's are fine how they are, and so is heroic fleet, I can beat even a good scylla spam with a few hammer ships and this tech. Water myth's are hard enough to get as it is, and heroic fleet just about cleans myth units up anyway as it is.

"Thor changes
- Thor armoury - 175 wood(suggested by vagabond_pip).
- Pigsticker +1 favor cost(suggested by vagabond_pip)"

Wait, don't Thor armory's cost 75 wood? Pigsticker is fine as it is IMO, and anyway, 1 favour is barely a difference.

"
Loki changes
- Eyes of the hill gives more los and applies for all units.
- Units train slightly faster(15% instead of 10%)(suggested by nightrain)"

Loki already beats the other Norse easily enough on high hunt with his bonuses, giving him a further faster training time might make him too OP. (Although 5% is barely a difference).

"Heimdall changes
- Artic wind has a 35% cheaper wood cost.
- Undermine is restored and does more damage vs non-atL. tcs(just like aom, they nerfed it, because it would easily kill an attie tc)."

Imo the GP is fine as it is... just don't use it vs TC's. This can be really good if you use it right in it's current state. It was nerfed for a reason, it was too OP, make sure not to restore it to it's OP status.

"Freya changes
- FF doesn't affect gaia forest(suggested by nightrain)
- Make Aurora Borealis +4 attack instead of +6, however make it give valks a LOS bonus.(suggested by nightrain)"

FF prolly affect Gaia forrest? I mean, she does get 4 of them, and all you have to do is make sure not to cast it near buildings :S

"Njord Changes
- Restore WW(they have 350 hp instead of 300 hp)
- Wrath of the deep cost 50% less food."

I still think Njord is fine as he is, maybe the wrath of the deep upgrade is a bit extreme, maybe make it like 15-25% cheaper?

"Baldr changes
- Dwarven auger -15 fav.
- Restore firegiants stats for supremacy.
- Hero Ragnorak's move .55 slower and have 0.03 less pierce/hack armour. This means they can still do their push and try to turn tides as a last desperate gamble so it's useful, but they're not such tanks with FW. (suggested by vagabond_pip)."

Firegiants are fine as they are :S Make sure not to nerf Ragnorak too much. Also, will .03 make that much of a difference?

"Tyr changes
- Restore Fenrish Wolves stats for supremacy."

Fenris wolves are fine, and TBH, Norse already have all round excellent myth units, so they don't really need to be upgraded.

"Greek changes
- Allow to train heroes in your temple(suggested by Action)
- Ranged heroes get 5-10% more hp(suggested by Nightrain)
- Nerf petrobolis range slightly(suggested by nightrain)"

Petrobolis' are fine! Getting long range seige in heoric is a Greek speciality, and petrobolis are expensive and weak anyway.

"Zeus changes
- Make Bellerophons jumping bonus do slightly less bonus damage(suggested by nightrain)
- Decrease myrmidon bonus vs buildings.(suggested by nightrain)"

I think Zeus is fine how he is :S

""Poseidon changes
- Lord of horses is 50% cheaper.
- Fishing ships ship 10-15% faster.
- Stables are 25%-30% cheaper instead of 15%.
- The argo is avaible in herioc and favor cost is reduced by 50%.
- Hetaroi's need a boost(bonus damage vs inf or better stats)."

I still think you are making stables too cheap, I always see expert players getting 3 stables easily enough early classical as they are...

"Hades changes
- Towers are 20% cheaper.
- Tower upgrades are 30% cheaper.
- Dead Ships can also contribute to summon shades."

The tower idea is silly.

"Hermes changes
- Spirited charge -15 favor."

This is sooo ridiculous because no Greek player has no trouble getting it based on favour as it is :S

"Athena changes
- Sarissa and Apis shield -5 favor."

Not necessary.

"Apollo changes
- Manticores -1 pop, +20% attack
- +10% healing rate, +4 range to healing temple of Apollo(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- Sun ray -10 favor.
- Oracle is 50% cheaper."

Healing temple is fine as it is, and I doubt that would get it to be used more anyway. Oracle is dirt cheap as it is =/

"Eggies changes
- Mercs are limited to 5, Merc cav to 4. Now they can stop siege/villies if unguarded but not be used as the main army.(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- Nerf ele's( decrease hp or armor)
- Docks cost 60 gold instead of 50 gold(suggested by nightrain)
- Added 2 seconds training time to chariot archers.(suggested by vagabond_pip)"

Hmmm, the 60 gold dock probably isn't necessary, if you're trying not to make them dock spam as much, you have made them make 4 instead of 5. :S IMO leave it at 50 gold.

"Ra changes
- Ra monuments gather 5-15% faster favor.
- Rain lasts 10 secs more(suggested by nightrain)"

Ra can get his monuments so early that IMO favour isn't a problem for him =/ Rain is good as it is tbh.

"Isis changes
- Block radius of monuments is way smaller(suggested by [Vnx]Espanyol)
- Make flood of the nile tech 5 food every 10 seconds as opposed to 1 food per second.(suggested by nightrain)"

Flood of the nile is fine as it is. Don't nerf it so much so that no one uses it =/

"Set changes
- Feral takes 10 less seconds, and adds 18% HP instead of 10%.(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- Remove animal negative multiplier altogether.(suggested by nightrain)
- Make Pharaoh summoned animals all cost less population.(suggested by nightrain).
- Make animals that appear when you advance cost no population at all(suggested by nightrain)."
Intersting, I doubt a Set player would ever want to spend favour on building crappy animals though.


"Bast changes
- Hieracosphinx -200 wood -5 favor."

Not necessary!

"Sekmet changes
- Stones of the red line is 50% cheaper.
- Ram of the west wing has a 50% cheaper gold cost.
- Bone bows has 50% cheaper wood cost."

These techs are fantastic, don't make them so cheap, this is just wayyy OP.

"Osiris changes
- Funeral barge -200 wood, -5 favor and *2 damage vs all ships instead of only arrow ships."

Having a 1 unit army that counters all is just boring and OP =/

"Atlantian changes
- tc favor rate is 30-50% less in archaic than now, the rate will be restored in classical.
- Destroyers get a higher bonus vs buildings(*7 instead of *5).
- Barracks and Counter-barracks are more expensive.
- Atl. heroes are 20% cheaper, cost less favor.
- Kata's have in classical -40 hp(hp gets restored in herioc)
- Murmillo's train 20% slower(ev. gets restored in herioc)
- Vills train slower(37-38 seconds instead of 35 seconds)(suggested by action)
- You can make 30 instead of 25 atl. vills.(suggested by nightrain).
- Contarius(Lancers keekee) have +5% pierce and hack armour(suggested by vagabond_pip)
- -0.04 wood gather rate, -0.04 gold gather rate, -0.03 crops rate, -0.03 farm rate, -0.03 herdable rate, -0.04 hunt rate, -0.04 gaia rate. Very very small nerf. Lowered values even further.(suggested by vagabond_pip)"

Destroyers are OP with a 5 times bonus :S Atty building cost is fine, Kata hp is not needed, mrumillo train time is not needed, vill time is not needed, negative gaia rate is not needed. How much do you want to nerf Atlantean? So much so that they are not used? I'd probably make murmillo train time 10% slower, and kata hp like -10/-20 permanently.

"Kronos changes
- Siege units are 25% cheaper instead of 10%.
- Myth units are 10% cheaper in classical, 15% in herioc and 20% in mythic.
- Focus costs only 10 wood and 2 favor and gives +10% attack to hero oracles.
- Timeshift cost more(15-20 wood instead of 5)(suggested by nightrain)."

Kronos just screams OP destroyer spam :S Timeshift is fine as it is.

"Gaia changes
- Fishing ships are 20% cheaper.
- Fishing eco upgrades are also 20% cheaper and can be research in any age.
- Gaia heroes are 30% cheaper.
- Gaia's lush is way bigger.
- Gaia forest is gathered 10% faster instead of 5%(suggested by nightrain)
- Give Gaia a new line of eco upgrades(suggested by nightrain)"

Fishing ups any age is OP. Fishing ships 20% cheaps is OP, lush upgrade is just making Gaia wayy to OP, Gaia's getting a new line of eco upgrades could get outta hand, but it is an interesting idea... I'd doubt it would make much a difference but you never know.

"Prometheus changes
- Valor only affects two units."


"Leto changes
- Cool down period of spider-lair is just one minute, eggs hatch faster.
- Hesphaestus revenge and Volcanic forge are 60% cheaper.
- Volcanic forge gives -20% hack/pierce vulnerability.
- New tech: 250 gold 250 wood: All myth units cost 25% less favor."

I don't think you need the eggs to hatch faster, this GP is meant to be used defensively anyway.

"Hyperion changes
- Chaos affects more units(8-9 units instead of 3-4 units), cooldown period is longer.
- Herioc renewal not only allows heroes to regenrate, but they get also +20% hp.
- Gemino is 50% cheaper.
- Satyrs +50 hp
- New tech: 350 wood 300 gold 10 favor: Chiero's and archers do 20% more damage."

8-9 units is too much. And you're new tech idea is silly. Makes a seige unit and archer unit that are not related at all get bonus attack. And anyway, there is already an arcus heroic upgrade.

"Atlas changes
- Eyes of Atlas: Instead giving more los to myth units, myth units have -20% hack/pierce/crush vulnerability.
- Titan shield: Buildings have -20% hack/crush vulnerability instead of -15%."

Titan shield is fine as it is, maybe just -10% for eye's of Atlas.

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 21 July 2007 10:22 AM EDT (US)     27 / 36       
"Fixes/Simple Moving Stuffall suggested by Vagabond_pip)
- Deconstruct Healing Spring Bug fixed
- Eyes in Forest/Lone Wanderer Put In Temple as well longhouse
- Greek Heroes in Temple :|:|
- Gaia Channels in Economic Guild
- Moved Omniscience so Kronos can now research it
- UW not repairable
- Obelisks buildable on hunt, but won't delete it :| Dunno if you want me to try fixing houses and walls being able to hunt delete as well, took me forever to find that obelisk = outpost 11.
- Hippolyta 2nd Poseidon hero no longer affected by mummy"
This is a sensible list of changes, for the most part. Greek heroes in the temple is debatable - they do get them in the fortress so the only problem is in Classical, but then you can build TCs in Classical so I really don't think it's needed. Gaia channels is kind of the same, not really needed as most people will get it as soon as the second TC is built if they can spare the favour.

Kronos having Omniscience is good - the argument that Omniscience + Time Shift is OP is ridiculous because 95% of the time you're getting it when you've won anyway to kill pockets of resistance. Also, time shifted buildings are very vulnerable.

Hippolyta is an obvious suggestion.

Obelisks don't need any change, and neither does hunting deletion. If a Norse player wants to try to use that tactic, it's perfectly acceptable - it leaves his weak Ulfsark vulnerable plus he isn't microing his economy while doing it.

Eyes of Forest/Lone Wanderer I have no problem with, but only if Gaia's is too. Can't do it only with some of them.

Underworld Passage is a good suggestion.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Based on this list of changes, and my own balance suggestions, I will now compile a list of what I think would be a sensible, doable patch, that isn't over the top (particularly the balance changes part)


Bug Fixes:

- Fixed a number of exploits.*
- Added a number of checks for known map hacks.*
- Units no longer return to the building they were trained in if that building's waypoint was set to another building and Auto-Queue was enabled.
- Units with a slow fire rate no longer ocassionally get "stuck" and stop attacking.
- Computer players no longer stop attacking or "playing" if the host leaves the game in an online match.**
- Deconstruct no longer works on Healing Springs.
- Kronos can now research Omniscience.
- Underworld Passage can no longer be repaired.
- Hippolyta (Poseidon's Classical Age Hero) is no longer affected by Mummy Special Attack.


Balance Changes:

- +25% Satyr Attack (15 instead of 12 Pierce)
- +5% Contarius and Contarius Hero Hack and Pierce Armour (20% each instead of 15%)
- Tusks of Apedemak gives Elephants +10% HP instead of +20% (+45 instead of +90 HP) The tech still gives the hack armour bonus.
- Sets animals lose their attack penalty (but keep their weakness vs Heroes and reduced armour from previous patches). I think this will be a happy medium between their previous OPness and their relative uselessness now.
- Gaia can get economic upgrades in any age, similar to Thor's Armoury
- +14% Heretoi HP (125 instead of 110 base)
- Heroic Fleet now gives ships a +75% Attack Bonus vs Myth Units (instead of +50%)


* These are general suggestions that would be up to ES, I don't know what map hacks etc there are but they've fixed problems like this in numerous patches before.
** Don't actually know if this is technically possible, but it might be.

-----------------------------------------------------------

This list is short enough not to send things into disarray, but also addresses some minor balance problems particularly in late game prowess. Suggestions are of course welcome.
Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 10:32 AM EDT (US)     28 / 36       
I completely agree with DragonQ.

Except I'm not 100% sure how your proposed Gaia bonus would play out, but maybe it would be balanced enough. Well, at least if you take away her getting them cheaper too. I believe that economic upgrades > armory upgrades.

[This message has been edited by Caboose_Nor (edited 07-21-2007 @ 10:35 AM).]

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 21 July 2007 11:05 AM EDT (US)     29 / 36       
Well I think Gaia's biggest problem is Heroes. But it is difficult to address this - if you make all heroes too much cheaper, Kronos and Oranos would benefit too much. Giving only Gaia a bonus really wouldn't happen in a patch. Increasing the Atlantean Favour Rate from TCs might work, not sure though.

I just think that if Gaia can get an even better economy she will be able to spam more units and be a bigger player overall and be able to defend herself early on better.
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 21 July 2007 08:13 PM EDT (US)     30 / 36       
Well I've put in my 2 cents, and when it all comes down to it, what is fixed is what the person thinks is OP when used vs them :S I'll say Dragon Q's is pretty solid atm.

"Fixes/Simple Moving Stuffall suggested by Vagabond_pip)
- UW not repairable"

Maybe make it repairable but at a slower rate? Didn't ES make this repairable on purpose? And anyway, Oranos gets a repairable sky passage in the classical age :S

"Balance Changes:

- +25% Satyr Attack (15 instead of 12 Pierce)
- +5% Contarius and Contarius Hero Hack and Pierce Armour (20% each instead of 15%)
- Tusks of Apedemak gives Elephants +10% HP instead of +20% (+45 instead of +90 HP) The tech still gives the hack armour bonus.
- Sets animals lose their attack penalty (but keep their weakness vs Heroes and reduced armour from previous patches). I think this will be a happy medium between their previous OPness and their relative uselessness now.
- Gaia can get economic upgrades in any age, similar to Thor's Armoury.
- +14% Heretoi HP (125 instead of 110 base)
- Heroic Fleet now gives ships a +75% Attack Bonus vs Myth Units (instead of +50%)"

The hetaroi bonus is too low and so are the contarius bonus', I don't think people will use them with such minimal difference. I also don't think people will use Satyr's still :S And heroic fleet is fine as it is. Gaia getting economic upgrades any age is interesting I guess, I think it probably could get a bit out of hand.

*You also need to give TA a bigger bonus vs. Myrmidon's, Fanatics and hoplites, it's silly that counter infantry gets owned by these guys :S

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

[This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 07-21-2007 @ 08:15 PM).]

« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Mythology Heaven | HeavenGames