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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Which is better?
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Topic Subject:Which is better?
ARBIT3R
Banned
posted 22 August 2007 06:37 AM EDT (US)         
When in classical for greeks, and create an army with ~the same number of toxotes, hoplite and hippikons is it better to buy:

medium infantry, medium archers and medium cav

or

copper weapons, copper plate and copper shields?
AuthorReplies:
Farrel
Banned
posted 22 August 2007 06:52 AM EDT (US)     1 / 30       
Line upgrades before armoury upgrades.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 08:09 AM EDT (US)     2 / 30       
No, copper gear in this case, as it will benefit all your units at the same time. If one unit type is predominant in your army, then line-upgrade it first.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
WNxWylde1
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 07:24 PM EDT (US)     3 / 30       
i agree with DaP
Ubermode
Banned
posted 22 August 2007 07:27 PM EDT (US)     4 / 30       
no, line upgrades.
DaP, if a 1650- agrees with you, you must be wrong im afraid.
thepinkguy
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 08:11 PM EDT (US)     5 / 30       
DaP is definatly right, armoury ups are cheaper in the long run and aid not only all of ur military units but also the attack of your buildings

ONLY REAL MEN CAN WEAR PINK!
I AM CANADIAN!
Farrel
Banned
posted 22 August 2007 08:14 PM EDT (US)     6 / 30       
tbh you shouldnt get either and get eco ups. Just dont losen unit3ns
Ironclaw77
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 08:20 PM EDT (US)     7 / 30       
You should really only get these if you have a lot of extra resources and are at your population limit and can't make any more units. The Armory units are really only a luxury as people rarely (besides Thor players) get them.


To Ubermode, you arrogance grows after every post and you contradict a highly respected poster: DeathAndPain simply because someone who's rating is below 1650 agrees with him. This topic doesn't exactly make or break your rating so I see no reason it should mean anything.

-Ironclaw77

I R O N C L A W 7 7
Everything that shines ain't always
gonna be gold.
Ubermode
Banned
posted 22 August 2007 08:25 PM EDT (US)     8 / 30       
my arrogance grows after every post? tbh i can afford to be arrogant in all my post because about 164% of the time i'm right. you can stop trying to look intelligent by contradicting me now, k thanks.
Ironclaw77
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 08:36 PM EDT (US)     9 / 30       
164% of the time i'm right.
DaP, if a 1650- agrees with you, you must be wrong im afraid.
-Ironclaw77

I R O N C L A W 7 7
Everything that shines ain't always
gonna be gold.
Ubermode
Banned
posted 22 August 2007 08:39 PM EDT (US)     10 / 30       
your quotes are totally meaningless, unless there is a hidden meaning there. doesn't that count as spam moderators?
Ironclaw77
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 08:41 PM EDT (US)     11 / 30       
If you had the brain you claim you do, you could see that you were clearly wrong in the statement I quoted.

-Ironclaw77

I R O N C L A W 7 7
Everything that shines ain't always
gonna be gold.
Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 10:11 PM EDT (US)     12 / 30       
If one of each, I don't know. If you had either an archer/hoplite or archer/hippikon combo I would have upgraded my archers (toxotes). It only costs wood and gold, not food. And early on food is normally very precious.

Well, I think if I had to spend it on something I would spend it on copper weapons.
ardica
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 10:20 PM EDT (US)     13 / 30       
i only get wat fits my situation like if my eney has ltos of towers and archer prob some haddes player id research all sheild upgrades

if they spaming infantry id research body armor upgrades so i dont waste it on something i dont need
lokiodin
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 10:24 PM EDT (US)     14 / 30       
Here we go again, [sigh]
Superusername
Mortal
posted 22 August 2007 10:26 PM EDT (US)     15 / 30       
Armory would be better in that case if you have an equal # of tox, hipps and hoplites against an identical army than getting copper weapons/copper shield/copper armor would be better IMSO because that would equal a line upgrade and it would affect all ur units but im not an expert like Dap or Ubermode so I'm kinda guessing
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 22 August 2007 10:38 PM EDT (US)     16 / 30       
It's a simple fact that you shouldn't upgrade anything to do with military until you have maxed out your pop. Economic upgrades take priority in early Classical and until you're popped. If you have two/three types of units in fairly equal numbers, armoury upgrades will probably be more beneficial. Also, if you know they have many archers, Copper Shields is the best upgrade for the money etc. Copper Weapons is fine if you don't know what types of units they have, but it's also more expensive.

Line upgrades are better if you have one type of unit in the majority, or if you already have the armoury upgrades you think you need (e.g. if they are Norse, and have not made towers, line upgrades will take priority over Copper Shields).

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 23 August 2007 00:47 AM EDT (US)     17 / 30       
I would say copper weapons give more bang for buck than any copper armor if you have a 1-1-1 army. Because armor gives you 10% less vulnerability to a certain type of attack, not 10% extra armor. This means that units with either high hack armor (hoplites) or units with high pierce armor (hippikon) will benefit less from it. Everybody enjoys the 10% damage bonus from copper weapons though. So, yeah, get my point?
yoma
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 01:08 AM EDT (US)     18 / 30       
its odd that you mention that, DragonQ, for some reason, i see more and more expect recs, when the expert is playing against norse, they get copper shields.
I understand it is probably one of the easiest to get armory ups, but, other then building fire, and ballista, in the late game , norse dont do piece.

edit: rephrased it.

[This message has been edited by Yoma (edited 08-23-2007 @ 01:52 AM).]

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 23 August 2007 01:38 AM EDT (US)     19 / 30       
Yoma, I think I can provide an explanation for you. Archers are what threatens a Norse race most, and since Norse is a highly aggressive race in general, they often come to fight in hostile building fire. Meanwhile, food is precious in classical age, so you will not want to spend some of your early food on upgrades if you can help it. However, the first pierce armor upgrades cost no food and are rather cheap. They are especially cheap for Thor, which is why I like getting them as a no-brainer in many cases, as the investition hardly digs a noticable hole in my resources. Needless to say that they are far less attractive in Norse vs Norse matchups due to lack of opponents that deal pierce damage.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
yoma
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 01:49 AM EDT (US)     20 / 30       
no, no, no, i am talking about getting the pierce up when playing against the norse.

IMO it is useless.
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 23 August 2007 07:58 AM EDT (US)     21 / 30       
its odd that you mention that, DragonQ, for some reason, i see more and more expect recs, when the expert is playing against norse, they get copper shields.
I understand it is probably one of the easiest to get armory ups, but, other then building fire, and ballista, in the late game , norse dont do piece.

edit: rephrased it.
Well, as DaP said, Copper Shields is usually the cheapest upgrade (since food is precious early) and in some ways the most useful (will help against archers which rape in large numbers in Classical, help raiders run from towers etc.). But against Norse the only reason to get it before Heroic is if you see them having upgraded towers and you plan to raid near them?

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 23 August 2007 08:00 AM EDT (US)     22 / 30       
And the possibility of massed trolls.

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

Farrel
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 08:03 AM EDT (US)     23 / 30       
no, no, no, i am talking about getting the pierce up when playing against the norse.
Towers/Hillforts/TCs
Longboats
Trolls
Ballista

If you're going to be facing any of these (you will), get pierce ups.
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 23 August 2007 08:14 AM EDT (US)     24 / 30       
Ah, water maps, I always forget about them as I HATE THEM SO MUCH.


:P

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
yoma
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 01:57 PM EDT (US)     25 / 30       
Not too many players go forsetti.

loki players might.....but they will mass hensir no troll.
thor players might........but most prefer to freyja cav raid
a_game_a_win
Mortal
posted 23 August 2007 04:31 PM EDT (US)     26 / 30       
I mass trolls in mythic.

Trolls for wood/FG for gold.

Favor is of the abundance
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 05:08 AM EDT (US)     27 / 30       
I mass trolls in mythic.

Trolls for wood/FG for gold.
Trolls are just so weak compared to fire giants. Unless you are broke gold-wise and make trolls just to make anything with your favor, why don't you go full granite FG instead?

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Kleinduimpje1
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 06:43 AM EDT (US)     28 / 30       
the meduim upgrades don't only give more hp's, but also +1 attack.

i think going for the meduim upgrades first is best. since as soon as you get the resources to do one, you can do one. for armor you need to pay 150 wood for the armory first. if you only have 300 food and 200 gold and 50 wood at a point and no armory, the choice is easy to make.

on a water map it is more usefull to ahve 15 archer ships with pierce armor, than 17 without pierce armor. the 15 will win
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 09:24 AM EDT (US)     29 / 30       
the meduim upgrades don't only give more hp's, but also +1 attack.
That is well-known, only that it is +10% and not +1. But line upgrades only upgrade units of their line. I agree that if you have to construct an expensive armory in order to obtain armory upgrades, then you need to factor in that cost as well.

However, when you come to the point at which you want to get a military upgrade, you may already have constructed the armory anyway, as you need it in order to advance to heroic age. Or you may be Thor, who pays only 75 wood for it. And when you have a situation like the one that original author of this thread described, that you have a mixed army of infantry, cavalry and archers in equal ratios, then it is better to get copper weapons +10% attack for all of them, than line upgrade +10% attack and some more hp for only a third of them.

So there is no general response. It depends on the game situation.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 24 August 2007 10:09 AM EDT (US)     30 / 30       
That is well-known, only that it is +10% and not +1. But line upgrades only upgrade units of their line. I agree that if you have to construct an expensive armory in order to obtain armory upgrades, then you need to factor in that cost as well.
Well that's two reasons why Armoury Upgrades are even better than Line Upgrades for Egypt - free Armoury, which many build soon anyway for Heroic, and Egypt have to uprade every single unit separately (although each upgrade is a bit cheaper than the standard Medium Infantry etc. IIRC), meaning three barracks upgrades, and then three more Migdol upgrades when in Heroic (assuming you want to use each unit, which normally isn't the case). Switching armies is quite hard for Egypt to do (although lukcily they don't have to do it often once in Heroic) - if someone casts Ragnarok, you may not have anything beyond Medium Axeman if you switched to Migdol in Heroic, hell you might not even have that many Barracks either. For Greeks for example, if they use Hoplites until Champion level, which is likely, then Hypaspists are automatically Champion too.

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
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