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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Odin>>Thor on water??
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Topic Subject:Odin>>Thor on water??
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BlackSun88
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 03:42 PM EDT (US)         
Interesting.

Odin can go heimdall and get the arctic wind tech so in arrow ship wars he>>all b/c norse arrow ships are even more awesmoe with that tech.

Odin can go Njord for Krakens, Thor cannot.

Odin can go Tyr for jormund elver. Not really better than thor but, Odin has 3 subtly placed water gods in his minor god choosing.

I just thought it was interesting dont flame me.
AuthorReplies:
Ubermode
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 03:51 PM EDT (US)     1 / 36       
arctic winds is totally useless. Thor can get burning pitch and full armoury in classical at a huge discount. thor is one of the storngest gods on water, if not THE strongest.
LightmareNikita
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 04:06 PM EDT (US)     2 / 36       
However, thor has no myths, yet yeah he can effectively attack from land, but so can odin, and sea battle almost never go to mythic.
invent00r
Mortal
posted 23 August 2007 04:14 PM EDT (US)     3 / 36       
Thor is THE strongest on water. His free gold mine, cheaper and better dwarves make Thor have a better build order than Odin, thus advancing faster.

This is pretty straight forward in vanilla: The one that advances 1st has the advantage.

Krakens are definitely a good mythical unit however, Bragi>>Njord.

-invent00r

My Work: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

WIP: Master XS Battle Micro AI
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Os segredos são de quem os souber guardar.
BlackSun88
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 10:21 PM EDT (US)     4 / 36       
"sea battles almost never go to mythic"

You say that like you are some experienced vet who has played countless water battles to make that judgement. I don't mind contructive criticism but when an illegitmate 1700 Poseidon tells me a fact which he pulled out of his ass/has heard from other members, i dont take it seriously whatsoever. I've seen water battles go mythic, it would be helpful if we all didn't just form rationalizations and thought for ourselves instead of just mindlessly repeating what others have said.

[This message has been edited by Colossus88 (edited 08-23-2007 @ 10:22 PM).]

LightmareNikita
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 10:29 PM EDT (US)     5 / 36       
dude, i was owning u today when u suddenly had to go...

Well, i've heard it from DaP and if that's not good enough, i don't know what is.

Thor gets FW and that's a much better tech then a few krakens who can just be countered with heroic fleet .

And at this point, i think i truly am a 1700 Poseidon. I may have gotten my 1703 rating thorugh 2v2 play, however, i've learned much, and dude, right at the moment i was 100% owning u, you had to go....

I've been told by dang clan members that my play is definetly 1700+.
Srry DaP, it may seem like i'm showing off, but i'm just defending the fact that i'm no longer the noob i was when i signed up here.

[This message has been edited by LightmareNikita (edited 08-23-2007 @ 10:32 PM).]

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 23 August 2007 10:42 PM EDT (US)     6 / 36       
Hmmmmmmmmm

Lightmare, it's strange how your last two 2vs2 games ended before 15s...but you do have several seemingly legit games too so whatever. I watched two of your games today vs Isis. You lost both - you didn't do bad, but I didn't see much evidence of "strong raiding" that you claimed to have in another thread? I just can't picture in my head how that play can lead to 1700. Hell, I've never been 1700 and I'm sure I often play better than I've seen you play.


Anyway, I'm inclined to agree Thor is better on water. But I won't say more than that since I don't play Norse so can't make an opinion based on much more than my relatively low experience against good Thor/Odin players on Mediterranean.

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
LightmareNikita
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 10:47 PM EDT (US)     7 / 36       
Dude, i'm only good in 1v1, do u hear me dragonQ? You saw me play vs. a 1700+ Isis two times today, my raiding was pretty good, and my BO was great.

Anyway, those 2 15 sec games, both times, the 2 guys resgined. The first time some 1680's didn't stand a chance and the 2nd game i was 1699 atm and these 2 1580's just gave up at the start.

I don't Cheat.

And dude, in 2v2 i suck because gold control is like impossible ok?
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 23 August 2007 10:54 PM EDT (US)     8 / 36       
I never said your 2vs2 wasn't good - I've never seen you play 2vs2 lol. Yes, I did like your BO, and as I said you didn't do bad at all (considering that guy, as you said, was definitely 1700+), but you still had a lot of "ouch" spots - raiders idle for ages, Archery Range WAY too late (you'd seen that ALL he had was Spearmen ages before, yet kept with all cavalry), lack of woodies (as you said in the game), and it seemed like you could have gone Heroic quite a bit earlier (I don't know for sure, didn't see the resources) since I couldn't see you spending the resources on anything. You stopped raiding gold quite early, and he had almost no defense near his only miners. Also, I would have thought it was common sense to bring your two heroes back to your base (you had no forward base) when he (Isis) went Heroic so you had a chance against A/E instead of having to resign after your TC was dead (this is the first game)?

I never said you cheat. In fact I don't think you do.

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
BlackSun88
Banned
posted 23 August 2007 11:07 PM EDT (US)     9 / 36       
i told you right from the start of that game that i had to leave in like 10 minutes, i would have gladly stayed.


whats this, i offered to do a 1v1 game with you and you are tired from 16 straight hours of playing?

1)Get a life
2)Don't even begin to insult me, you've had at least 3x the game experience I have(You since the beginning of summer, Me late July)
3)I would have gladly stayed in the game you were "pwning" and found a way to rape your posiedon ass
4)I have to go to practice every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. My bad for being social/not sitting on my ass for days on end.



Also, i find it weird that you "pwn" in 1v1 but are scared out of you mind to go 1v1 rated. Why have that high a rate, if you can't do anything outta fear of getting raped?

[This message has been edited by Colossus88 (edited 08-23-2007 @ 11:09 PM).]

Etendorf
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 00:46 AM EDT (US)     10 / 36       
Shut up Collosus, you look like an idiot.

Thor > Odin on Water because of early eco. Better classical advance and longboat rush. Dwarven Armory is overrated though, it doesn't realistically become cost effective fast enough for water.

*IF* by some chance that water fighting lasts until heroic, Odin has amazing water with 2x longboat myth upgrades and krakens. I've done it a number of times. A hard water fight, when up to heroic instead of investing in hammer/siege ships, get the Longboat ups to make your existing units on-par with heroic units, along with a kraken, as it is a very powerful MU. Siege ships are actually the worst water unit because of their slow firing rate and are more fragile in general. 6.6 speed longboats can move to evade shots, have additional crush armor against their attack, and partner perfectly with Krakens to counter hammer ships, especially when upgraded.

It just rarely has a chance to happen and you have to be on top of things to make it happen. Longboat rushes usually decide water maps much sooner before any of that can come into play.

Nick: Eten.
Gods: All of them!
Vanilla.
yoma
Banned
posted 24 August 2007 00:55 AM EDT (US)     11 / 36       
argh......
in a 1v1 on meddit, thor can get extremly cheap shield upgrades so if both grush, thor>odin

if both fh.
thor>odin better cheaper armory ups decide this one.

thor grush and odin fh: thor>odin
it is hard to get the favor for all the krakens.
its not like a zeus fh scylla spam, you have to fight for that favor.

thor will defintly FF ur forest while fighting on the water to screw you up. i think he will win.

odin water econ< thor water econ
the dwarves help a lot.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 04:52 AM EDT (US)     12 / 36       
Thor's early economy, combined with the generally higher attack of Norse longboats, are what makes him so strong on water. Thor can use his early Thor mine and dwarves on gold to set up an awesome econ as early as early archaic age. The longer training time of the dwarves on wood is more than compensated by the fact that he gets more fishing boats at an earlier time thanks to the added wood income. His cheaper dwarves and two initial dwarves also help in this respect. He can make gatherers later in the game, using the food from the sea, and over time replace the wood dwarves with gatherers, relocating the dwarves to gold.

Meanwhile, Odin's GP is near useless on Mediterranean. Odin is also less flexible with his vill production, and pays more for the gold dwarves that he does get. In classical age, the added hp from Arctic Winds are not more than the first pierce armor upgrade that Thor gets for a measly 100w/100g. But if Odin picks Heimdall in order to get access to Arctic Winds, then he has no Forest Fire. Thor's valkyrie will burn Odin's forest, further delaying his arrow ship production, and occasionally killing a vill or two.

Odin has the option to FH for krakens, but the Heroic Fleet upgrade solves this problem nicely for Thor. Thor can also get some hack/crush armor upgrades for his arrow ships at low cost in the armory.

Colossus88, it is true that sea battles play much less of a role in mythic age. By mythic age, one player has typically won the water for good. Occasionally his opponent will try to make a few docks and reclaim the water, but most of the mythic age fighting takes place on land even on Mediterranean. Heroic Fleet is more than easy to have by mythic age. For that reason, the jormund brood, a water myth that Thor can get, plays hardly a role, and I would prefer Baldr over Tyr anytime.
And at this point, i think i truly am a 1700 Poseidon. I may have gotten my 1703 rating thorugh 2v2 play
You definitely are no true 1700 Poseidon. Nobody is worth his max rate, and you surely do not win 50% of your games against 1700 opponents. And I already pointed out to you that nobody here will respect a rating that was obtained by means of 2v2.

The funny thing is that you say yourself that you are only good in 1v1. Well, if 1v1 is your strong side, and you achieved 1700 in 2v2, then how hard can it be for you to beat up some 1700 players in 1v1? I do not think that you can do that though. Nothing has changed; you are still bragging about a skill that you do not have. Congratulations on having a good ally.
I've been told by dang clan members that my play is definetly 1700+.
It is absolutely unimportant what others say about you. Achieve the rating in serious 1v1 games if you think that you are worth it. You keep attempting to substitute achievements with mere words. You should have noticed by now that nobody will respect you for words, or the performance of your ally.
Anyway, those 2 15 sec games, both times, the 2 guys resgined. The first time some 1680's didn't stand a chance
... which they realized after 15 seconds into the game. I am really puzzled how you can actually believe anyone will buy crap like that!?!
I don't Cheat.
Someone gave me a replay which he thought proved that you map hack. I will not relay it, nor mention who it was, but I can tell that I watched it and came to the conclusion that you did not cheat. The weird thing about it was that you did quite a good start, but as the game progressed into heroic age suddenly appeared to have no clue how to go on. You spammed vills and caravans beyond every measure, occupying heaps of pop space, and then mindlessly spammed defensive buildings all over your base while your opponent actually attacked and won the game for you. Hell, for minutes I even had the impression that you had left your computer!

Etendorf, you are not used to naval battles in heroic age because you play vanilla, where there are no shooting docks, and where heroic water myth is more than hard to counter, so the battle for sea is decided quickly most of the times. You are wrong to generalize this to the TT expansion though. Thor's armory upgrades play a huge role in naval combat, although not right at its beginning. I like to play players that try to FH for siege vessels and water myth. Against those I attempt to accumulate enough upgrades so that I can fight both their siege and water myth effectively with my arrow ships. With the help of Burning Bitches and a couple hack/crush armor upgrades, this is well possible, especially since arrow ships train much faster than siege vessels. When I follow into heroic age, I typically get arrow ship cladding, making the arrow ships even better. Making siege and ramming ships sure makes sense for Thor, too, but basically, he can do pretty much all naval fighting with longboats alone.
Siege ships are actually the worst water unit because of their slow firing rate and are more fragile in general.
Unless you have Baldr's Arctic Gale researched. Naval combat typically plays not much of a role in mythic age, but when it does occur, I will rather want to have that upgrade than the jormund elver water myth.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Kleinduimpje1
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 06:15 AM EDT (US)     13 / 36       
just wanting to say that flaming arrows only gives a bonus vs buildings and not vs ships.
Holy Diver
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 06:16 AM EDT (US)     14 / 36       
What does Arctic gale do again?

And Njord is good. Especially if you've got Siege Ships on your casee. But Krakens are immense. Insant kill to ships and any units unfortunate enough tog et close.

Better massed so the ones not fighting can recharge their specials while the others use theirs.

"Well blow my Gjallarhornid! It's Skeggi Battlehands!"
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 06:21 AM EDT (US)     15 / 36       
just wanting to say that flaming arrows only gives a bonus vs buildings and not vs ships.
Just wanting to say that you are very, very wrong. Do not rely on some obscure tables. Test it if you have doubts.
What does Arctic gale do again?
Download xentelian's excellent stats sheets, as every dedicated AoM player should do, and put a printout on your table. Then it will be but a quick glance to find out.
But Krakens are immense. Insant kill to ships and any units unfortunate enough tog et close.
Still they die horribly to ships with the Heroic Fleet upgrade.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 24 August 2007 08:50 AM EDT (US)     16 / 36       
Burning Pitch

+500% Archer/Arrow Ship Damage vs Buildings
+50% Archer Damage vs Ships
+15% Arrow Ship Attack
+1000% Cherioballista Damage vs Buildings
+20% Ballista Damage vs Buildings

Items in red are useful for Classical water fights.

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 08:54 AM EDT (US)     17 / 36       
Off-topic:

What does "attack rate" mean in xentelian's ingame info, and how is it applied?
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 08:55 AM EDT (US)     18 / 36       
Hold on, are you sure it is 500%?

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 09:10 AM EDT (US)     19 / 36       
The Burning Pitch is an upgrade that probably requires further investigation. I once did some tests, and found that it increases archer ship damage against opposing ships by far more than 15% (it was rather something like 33%). However, I did not do enough testing to determine the exact effect; I did it only because I did not believe the tables and wanted to get an idea how worthwhile Burnign Pitch is for my naval battles. However, I learnt enough from them to say that pretty much all tables that you can find out there concerning this upgrade are apparently wrong. That does include xentelian's, which are otherwise the most accurate AoM/AoT tables that you can find.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 10:09 AM EDT (US)     20 / 36       
Hmmm very unusual, after a quick try in editor.

Findings:
It seemed as though vs. boats it did slightly less then 150% Vs. Buildings it was about 500%

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 24 August 2007 10:11 AM EDT (US)     21 / 36       
Hold on, are you sure it is 500%?
No. That's just what my SEP tooltips say. I've heard about Burning Pitch being wrong before, but I can't see why it would be that hard to investigate its effects...

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
Caboose_Nor
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 11:39 AM EDT (US)     22 / 36       
I want to test some things in the editor too. How do I upgrade units in the editor? (again, sorry for off-topic)
Lord_Richjp
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 11:48 AM EDT (US)     23 / 36       
Isn't there just some file that determines the effects you can look through?

My grandmother slaps harder than the Agra Fort shoots. And she's dead. ~ Ender_Ward

By the same token, if I attempt to operate the mouse using nothing but my butt-cheeks, micro will also come down to "luck." ~ Beatnikjoe
Kleinduimpje1
Mortal
posted 24 August 2007 01:16 PM EDT (US)     24 / 36       
in ship vs ship the burning pitch upgrade is equal to an attack upgrade
yoma
Banned
posted 24 August 2007 03:30 PM EDT (US)     25 / 36       
"I want to test some things in the editor too. How do I upgrade units in the editor? (again, sorry for off-topic)"

cant quote atm, have to go soon.

go to triggers, create trigger, player 1, go to "set tech status" then look for the techs you want to give the unit you want.
Shanks13
Rogue Agent
posted 24 August 2007 03:54 PM EDT (US)     26 / 36       
General heads-up to all you guys, this is off-topic. I really don't want to see anymore of these arguments concerning lightmare_nikita, etc. Thanks.

DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 24 August 2007 04:29 PM EDT (US)     27 / 36       
Huh? We're talking about the Burning Pitch upgrade and how useful it is on water in Classical (since Thor can get it and Odin cannot)...

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
Pdroo
Banned
posted 24 August 2007 05:32 PM EDT (US)     28 / 36       
Etendorf ur back!

great

... wait.... I cannot play now...

Damn...

Why did u dissapeared man??
yoma
Banned
posted 24 August 2007 06:20 PM EDT (US)     29 / 36       
Off topic but,

I don't really see how telling someone how to set tech status is off topic, as he will go and do a test in editor that is realated to this thread.
Ubermode
Banned
posted 24 August 2007 07:30 PM EDT (US)     30 / 36       
just want to add, in the nicest possible way, that no way is Lightmare 1700+. i dont remember what nic i played on (AoTH_GaiaOP i think), but i remembre him flaming me afterwards saying i was laming (because i was massing anubites and spearmen vs him massing hippikons and tox and not making heroes)
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