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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Question on the " 1 god power per age"
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Topic Subject:Question on the " 1 god power per age"
Alexandergreat3
Mortal
posted 15 January 2002 04:33 PM EDT (US)         

Quote:

1 god power per age

Question: Is godpower Accumulative, meaning that if a player advances to the 4th age and have *not* used any god power in the previous ages, will he have a total of 4 god powers to use?

  • If god power is accumulative, can a player cast a series of 4 god powers in a roll?

  • If god power is not accumulative, then when a player advances to the next age and forgets to use the god power, will he loose that one?
    _____________

    Personally, I think it's better to have the GP's accumulative, but make certain powerful ones such as the meteor storm cost enough favor so that a player cannot cast four of them in a roll. Either way, I feel that limiting the GP's by age feels very restrictive and not fun - just the thought of a do-or-die makes me feel that I'm not free to use it at will.

    In other games such as warcraft, you can cast spells throughout the entire game without being restricted, and I think that's what makes it fun and that's why a lot of people like to play it, but the game itself is not unbalanced because of that.

    I think that it's better to put limits on the very powerful god powers by simply putting a high price tag on them - high enough so that a player cannot cast 2 meteor storm in 2 minutes, but low enough so that approximately 1 will be casted each age, and still leave some rooms if the game lasts long enough, the players will have more chance to use the god powers again.

    Suppose a player is limited to 1 god power in the last age, and after that there will be no more....what if...the game last a little longer than expect or a stalemate happens, does that mean no god power to use? That wouldn't be very fun!

    Also, I think that, in addition to the power GP's, there should be "mini" god powers that don't have much restrictions and cost a lot less favor so that players can have a lot of fun throught the entire game - not just once in every ~20 minutes - while things don't get out of hand.

    Ok, you have heard enough of my opinions on the subject , what are your takes on this matter: do you think it should be accumulative or it should not be accumulative? Do you know another good way to handle/balance the god power? Please put your suggestions here! Let's hear 'em

    [This message has been edited by Alexandergreat3 (edited 01-15-2002 @ 05:06 PM).]

  • AuthorReplies:
    martin
    Mortal
    posted 15 January 2002 05:30 PM EDT (US)     1 / 16       

    Quoted from Alexandergreat3:

    Either way, I feel that limiting the GP's by age feels very restrictive and not fun - just the thought of a do-or-die makes me feel that I'm not free to use it at will.

    Actually I think it's better that way for the GP won't play such an important part of the attacks and it will make the need of a good army higher, which is something I wanna see.

    It also means a lot of strategy to it, you can't just get rid of the GP whenever you want to use it (it's not like the Gods are gonna help you over and over to do YOUR job), but you have to THINK and wait for the right time to exploit those powers the Gods put in your hands.

    ...


    Former Leader and co-Founder of the FPH Clan

    Now I just troll boards. ^_^

    Alexandergreat3
    Mortal
    posted 15 January 2002 07:30 PM EDT (US)     2 / 16       

    Quoted from Martin:

    It also means a lot of strategy to it, you can't just get rid of the GP whenever you want to use it (it's not like the Gods are gonna help you over and over to do YOUR job), but you have to THINK and wait for the right time to exploit those powers the Gods put in your hands.

    I think you have misunderstood me, Martin. I'm not suggesting that the powerful God powers should be made cheap, so that players can use them like bread and butter. I'm suggesting to place a limit on powerful God powers in a way that would prevent players from abusing the GP's, but in a way that would not take away the fun in the game.

    - What is the main goal in balancing powerful God powers?
    The goal is to make it so that players cannot constantly use them and abuse them.

    - How can one tell if an item in the game is overused and abused?
    Take this for instance: the old town center in AoK cost very little, fast to build, and have good fire power, and as the result, players have learn to use them as an offensive weapon to the point where it has no counter, except itself.

    - How did Ensemble fix this imbalance?
    By making the town center cost more stone, slower to build, and have less fire powerit put an end to the town center problem. Did ES put a limit on the number of town centers a player can build? The answer is no. Had it been a good idea to? Of course not!

    - What does this mean with the powerful God Powers in AoM?
    It means that a powerful God Power can be prevent from being an overused item by following the fundamental steps taken with the town center in AoK: make it more expensive (thus longer to get the amount of favor needed).

    << HAVING 1 GOD POWER BY AGE >>

    Pros

  • Prevent GPs from being overused

    Cons

  • If game lasts long enough (or stalemate results), there wont be any more God powers to be used.
  • Thus, God powers would be factored out of the military arsenal in late games


    << LIMITING GOD POWER BY COST >>

    Pros

  • Prevent GPs from being overused
  • Players can still call for god powers in long games or stalemate

    Cons

  • ES_DeathShrimp
    Immortal
    posted 16 January 2002 12:20 PM EDT (US)     3 / 16       

    Quote:

    >

    Pros


    Prevent GPs from being overused
    Cons


    If game lasts long enough (or stalemate results), there wont be any more God powers to be used.

    DS: Nothing stops you from saving them as long as you want.

    Quote:

    Thus, God powers would be factored out of the military arsenal in late games

    DS: Then again, it creates this cool dynamic of knowing that every player has a few really powerful cards, but once they play them, you know your're safe from them.

    Quote:

    >

    Pros


    Prevent GPs from being overused

    DS: That's a Pro from the first method as well.

    Quote:

    Players can still call for god powers in long games or stalemate

    DS: Seeing as how stalemates are generally not the most fun aspect of the game, it seems strange to balance things just to accomadate them.

    Quote:

    Cons

    DS: Here's a big one: it means GPs have to be weak, just like your TC example. Oh sure, they could be very expensive, but that doesn't really keep TCs or Paladins or War Elephants out of AOK does it? It just means that when some player does amass the fortunate necessary to train dozens of those rare units, you pretty much lost the game. We don't want GPs to be like that. They need to be a major part of every game for every player.

    Think of it like a racing game, where you have a big red TURBO button that you can use 3 times. Doesn't that just make more sense than letting the fastest vehicle get to use the button more? It creates an interesting dynamic where the time when you use the button becomes very critical, not just some weapon you reach out and press every few minutes as an afterthought.

    martin
    Mortal
    posted 16 January 2002 12:23 PM EDT (US)     4 / 16       
    Stole the words from the tip of my tongue...

    Former Leader and co-Founder of the FPH Clan

    Now I just troll boards. ^_^

    Alexandergreat3
    Mortal
    posted 16 January 2002 05:02 PM EDT (US)     5 / 16       
    I wrote:

    << LIMITING GOD POWER BY COST >>

    Pros

  • Prevent GPs from being overused
  • Players can still call for god powers in long games or stalemate

    DS: Seeing as how stalemates are generally not the most fun aspect of the game, it seems strange to balance things just to accomadate them.

    Actually, it's not to accomodate the stalemate, but to prevent them, DS . If stalemate occurs, players will have the chance to use the wild cards, as you said, to turn the tide. If you limit to only 1 GP in the last age, you *are* accomodating stalemate, if it happens to take place, because after that 1 GP is cast, there won't be anymore cards to turn.

    DS: Here's a big one: it means GPs have to be weak, just like your TC example. Oh sure, they could be very expensive, but that doesn't really keep TCs or Paladins or War Elephants out of AOK does it? It just means that when some player does amass the fortunate necessary to train dozens of those rare units, you pretty much lost the game.

    Gp doesn't have to be weak, like the TC example. It can be made expensive enough so that amass it by a dozen, as you said, is not practically possible. The idea is not to keep GP out of the game, as you have misunderstood the idea, but to make it so that it won't be an imbalance.

    You said that the elepahnts were not kept out of AoK...I don't think that was ES' goal, was it? The goal was to keep elephants from running amoch on your farms. In other words, to keep them from being made in large quantities that would make them invincible. And is the Persian civ invincible? Definitely not! As a matter of fact, persians are not on civ list when it comes to competitive gaming. Huns and Vikings are. We don't see the persians being played in world competition.

    Getting back to AOM...DS, you said people can still amass GP's to dominate the game. If that is true, then couldn't players amass an army of Myth units...such as minotaurs, giants, or anubis?

    ES assured us fans that players will not be able to amass Myth units, so I would assume that players cannot amass God powers as well. After all, shouldn't the God powers be more expensive than MU's?

  • Imperialarc
    Mortal
    posted 16 January 2002 05:24 PM EDT (US)     6 / 16       
    Bleh, sorry, I didn't make no sense in response to Alexander and DS.

    Also, I think what ES is going with god powers is more for a strategic move, which I like.

    [This message has been edited by Imperialarc (edited 01-16-2002 @ 05:45 PM).]

    IR_Evil
    Mortal
    posted 16 January 2002 08:02 PM EDT (US)     7 / 16       
    well, i for 1 think that limiting the god power to a certain number is a very bad idea. Maybe they are powerfull, but they can jsut be made more expensive, they don't ahve to lose their strength. Aslo, limiting things to a certain number is very annoying, if you are able to buy 10 meteor showers(which should take over an hour of booming ot achieve), than you sure as heck should be able to use them, its not like you wouldnt win anyways if you had that many resources.
    Immhotep
    Mortal
    posted 17 January 2002 01:19 AM EDT (US)     8 / 16       
    I agree with ya IR_Evil. If someone lets his enemy sits for couple of hours, stock up his resources soo much to the point he can get that much god powers, he deserves to die anyway. I mean in AOK u dont see people let their enemies sit and farm till they can build up 200 Pals do ya? If they allow their enemies to do that then they should die either way.
    Immhotep
    Mortal
    posted 17 January 2002 01:35 AM EDT (US)     9 / 16       
    Btw, are god powers like the meteor shower acumalative (sp?) ES? Cuz it would sux if I save up my god powers from dark age and when i reach to olympic age, I loose the ones from dark age, u know what i mean?

    If the god powers are limited to 1 per age, at least make it so that i can store them up, otherwise everytime u or some guy advance to the next age, u would have to get rid of it, and u would often see fire raining down ur base, and u think to urself "ahh, one more player advancing to the next age". ^_^

    vladimir87
    Mortal
    posted 17 January 2002 07:52 AM EDT (US)     10 / 16       
    God powers in the dark age will be weak probably, like the one that increases gaia animal, and teh ones in the olympic will be stronger, like the meteor shower...

    Don't try to argue with ES, they are playing the game, and they know what woorks and doesn't work...

    !

    -vladimir87

    IV1066
    Mortal
    posted 17 January 2002 01:06 PM EDT (US)     11 / 16       
    Godpowers can only cost up to 100 favor, or else ES would have to increase the cap (no word on that occuring). So, once the game hits the point where all 16 players have 125 villies, and everyone is getting lots of favor quickly, how could ES keep you from casting lots of GPs? They could limit how fast you can gather favor, but that'd screw up MU production too.

    I like the new system, it sounds like it'll require more cleverness.

    Immhotep
    Mortal
    posted 19 January 2002 05:23 PM EDT (US)     12 / 16       

    Quoted from IV1066:

    So, once the game hits the point where all 16 players have 125 villies, and everyone is getting lots of favor quickly, how could ES keep you from casting lots of GPs?

    uhh...i see some a flaws in logic there, mate. If players can get so many GPs when they have 125 vils, what is stopping them from making armies of mythological units? If ES can limit the MUs, I don't see what's so hard about limiting the GPs....I mean they should cost way more than the MUs already?

    EDIT: here is a quote from me (usually I don't quote myself lol)

    Quoted from Immhotep:

    I mean if u limit all god powers to 1 per age (means only 4 per game), who would want to waste their precious GP on worthless GP's like "double hostile animals" in ur enemy's town?! Come one! I'd rather "double the meteor shower" on my enemy's town ! See where I'm getting at?

    another post also debate on this issue...u guys might want to check it out too
    http://aom.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,2633,1,10

    [This message has been edited by Immhotep (edited 01-19-2002 @ 05:30 PM).]

    Immhotep
    Mortal
    posted 19 January 2002 05:35 PM EDT (US)     13 / 16       

    Quoted from vladimir87:

    Don't try to argue with ES, they are playing the game, and they know what woorks and doesn't work...

    Dude...I hate to quote myself too many times, but uh...

    Quoted from Immhotep:

    Ehhmm...I agree with what u said...to a certain point. I mean, don't u remeber the Teut TC in AoK and the Koreans onagers and Turkish towers in AoC? ES knows what they're doing, but they're not right 100% of the time. As gamers, if u feel that something is wrong, u gotta speak up and point out what could be done better

    cornergraf
    Mortal
    posted 19 January 2002 06:32 PM EDT (US)     14 / 16       
    I have to agree completely with Alexanderthegreat.

    your arguments are very convincing...


    on the other hand, with those limited god powers. imagine you could acumulate them. then you could have it so that you can only have economic god powers in early ages, and military in later ages.

    that would make you decide wether you want a better start and use economic god powers early in game, or have a slower start and "collect" your god powers for some military stuff later in game.

    this way everyone can decide if he has a booming, a turtling or a rushing civ...


    What can i do now ?
    ThorsHammer_
    Mortal
    posted 19 January 2002 07:17 PM EDT (US)     15 / 16       
    I think instead of having 1 gp per age, there should be a limit of 4, but can be used in any age. BUT, each one should be much harder to aquire.

    Another cool idea:
    Have A quest or something for Heros to complete, and the reward for completing the quest could be a God Power. And make each quest harder, up too 4 quests or so.

    vladimir87
    Mortal
    posted 19 January 2002 08:08 PM EDT (US)     16 / 16       
    Imhmotep:

    Dude, I know the town center was a flaw... I know that korean onagers were cheap. Sure even ES makes mistakes


    But who are you to say that when ES says that heroes using gpssn't fun, that they are wrong. ES isn't making this up. Using the heroes to cast god powers isn't fun, ES said so! Yes, ES overlooks things Immhotep, but if they say something is wrong, you really can't say that it is right. They are the ones playing the game. I bet you the greek mounted spearmen rush is a big unbalance in the game (just an example), but if ES notices something, no matter what you assume, you are wrong... No offense or anything, but ES must know what's fun in their game...

    -Vladimir87

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