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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » defense in aom
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Topic Subject:defense in aom
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 17 January 2002 09:48 AM EDT (US)         
Hey everyone,

I would like to discuss the role of defenses in AOM. With new god power offense, myth unit attacks, and larger army sizes. Defense will be important when abroad fighting at the enemy's base. Here are my thoughts on defense...

In AOK certain defenses were useful, certain defenses were cheap, and certain defenses are worthless... Here they are...

<<<<<<AOK DEFEENSES>>>>>>

Just reviewing the ups and downs of each aok defense… I am covering new ideas down the page...

Outpost- Well, not really a defense, but this building I never really used. Is has no attack, can be taken down easily by a scout cavalry, and really does not provide much recon. The only age these structures would be useful in would be dark, when towers are not available and units are weaker. In the Dark Age though, it is just a waste of an important resources. I cannot remember last building an outpost. Maybe I never have...

Watch tower- feudal defense with weak attack. This building has one purpose, actually two. It is useful in guarding outlying gold and wood villagers from minor threats. It is also useful in tower rushing . However, as this structure has minimum range, it is in most cases only useful in pairs. Sure an can take out archers, slowly, but even archers can move next to the base, and slowly wear it down. Infantry can work it away rather quickly. This building must be built in pairs, which costs a major amount of stone in the early ages. However, it is effective being this weak, since it could be very unbalanced when offensive in the feudal age.

Guard tower- What to say? It is an upgraded watchtower, with better HP and attack. Still there is no minimum range, until you get murder holes, which is available after building a university in the castle age. Still it is useless by itself, and when trying to build that important castle, which enables imperialing, it is costly to build several of them. I personally do not use towers for defense, or towers at all, unless I am facing a great rusher or am tower rushing...

Keep- By the time you build this structure, you should have plenty of stone villagers. Why then, would you build a keep with only limited garrison, when you can get a castle? Sure it is a lot cheaper, but the benefits of a castle are huge, when forward building ect. Keeps just will not cut it in late games. They may be good for "recon" and keeping little hit and run attacks against the economy under control, but why bother with them?

Castle: Ah, the ultimate defense. Not only does this building have a deadly attack, but also it has an extensive garrison. This building can take out most every castle age unit with murder holes (with the exception of ram), and is effective defense in the imperial age as well. The great siege unit, the treb, is built here, as well as unique units and techs. This building is worth the extra stone, and can tear apart both building and unit when forward built. It also offers a good place to lure the enemy too, or to hit and run too... Everyone uses castles...

Bombard tower- practically invincible to everything except bombards and trebs, this structure is deadly with murder holes. It can take out any unit, and can pick off guys running parallel to it... One thing I found very annoying is that the computer built bombards throughout there base preventing me from the glory of razing their base… L … Really though, bombards are too expensive to build a lot of them until very late.

Wall- What is there to say? I personally never wall, as I am a rusher, except maybe walling off choke points occasionally. Walls are not very effective on open maps like Arabia, unless you go at great lengths to defend. On maps like black forest they are a must for the channel between the bases.

Palisade- Anything can take out palisade, and the only use for it for me is the dark age palisade walling in black forest…

Gate- stronger wall that you can pass through, not much more to say here anyway…

All of the above defenses, even though they vary in usefulness, are musts in the next es game.

<<<<<NEW AOM DEFENES>>>>>>>

Here are my ideas for defenses new for the upcoming AOM…

Mythological Towers-
Yep you guessed it, towers that use faith and fire lightning, flames, ice, and whatever else…The plus to these towers (they are more expensive) is that besides doing plenty of damage to every troop, it has special bonuses against certain men… You catch my drift. These towers would be extremely expensive, and might take a bit off your faith every time they fire. In this way they would be balanced…

Specifics:

-Fire tower: good against the frost giant, and can take out troops standing close to one another. Special bonus against buildings and especially ships… Can set trees on fire as well…
-Lightning tower- good against infantry; can strike multiple targets at once. Especially good against archers. Also successful against ships.
-ice tower- Freezes units from long range. Weak against buildings and ships

These are just examples, there could be many others…

Another idea for myth towers is that they are similar to the component tower in Tyberian Sun. These towers are upgradeable. The catch is, you do not put a special fire component on it to make it flame tower. Instead, there is room for one garrisoned unit. Send in a archer, and more arrows come out. Send in an infantry, and it shoots faster. Send in a fire giant, and torch your enemies on their funeral pyre. Put in a frost giant, and freeze your enemies from afar. And yes, medusas turn enemies to rock. You catch my drift, these towers would increase the attack of whatever unit you put in, particularly… myth units…


My second idea for now for a new defense in aom is harder to manage,

I have heard that they are called sleepers, but I am not sure…

Trench- What happens is, you ask a villager to build this defense. He or she goes to the desired spot, then takes out his shovel and starts digging. When the building is done (you see it getting deeper), it is up to you to garrison spearmen or halberdiers inside. Then the fun part comes. When an enemy unit comes and walks across the trench, the spearmen jab there spears and attack the vulnerable troop. You might be able to see the trenches, as they could be covered with leaves, or sticks, but if you told a unit to attack the enemy base, then he would not avoid the trenches. You could dodge them manually. Siege units could force attack on these structures and level them…

-Now that I think about it, putting spears inside the trenches just would not work well… to hard to manage…It would probably be better to just have holes where units can fall to their death.

Well, that’s all I got for now… Tell me what you think, and if you think they are too impractical… Or just say any other defenses I haven’t mentioned…

-thanks, Vladimir87

AuthorReplies:
Toetanchamon9
Mortal
posted 17 January 2002 12:35 PM EDT (US)     1 / 15       
You can also defense with units.
In AOK, in early ages the towncenter is an good defense. Garisson all your villies inside and you get a small castle.
In AOM walls are not a very good defense because the enemy has Siege Towers. Myth towers? I think there are no myth towers because you can get only 1 Gp each age and if you build myth tower, you can use it as a new kind of Gp.

Toet
SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 17 January 2002 05:18 PM EDT (US)     2 / 15       
Don't forget the fortress.

God Bless America.

I am the state.

ES_DeathShrimp
Immortal
posted 17 January 2002 07:29 PM EDT (US)     3 / 15       
We wanted to make sure defenses in AOK were powerful early on, to make sure the game last more than 5 minutes, and weaker in the late game, to make sure the game lasts less than 5 hours.

In AOM, we have been able to make defenses really powerful and really cheap. Why? There are an awful lot of ways to knock them down.

As a result, I see more walls in AOM than in AOK, even on open maps, but the games last a lot shorter. This doesn't mean you will get clobbered by a rush in 5-minutes. It means that the most fun part of the game, the meat, is the focus, and that annoying denoument after the game has basically been decided (you know, when you are hunting down that last Villager), is a lot shorter.

Stone_Giant
Mortal
posted 18 January 2002 12:05 PM EDT (US)     4 / 15       

Quoted from ES_DeathShrimp:

We wanted to make sure defenses in AOK were powerful early on, to make sure the game last more than 5 minutes, and weaker in the late game, to make sure the game lasts less than 5 hours.

Agreed. But, do you remember the feudal tower rush? The Frank Castle rush? The Teuton Town Centre rush? Defense structures should not be able to pull off a strong offense.

It’s a tough call. On the one hand, you've got 500,000 players who love to rush, and 500,000 players who love to boom. Lets hope they’re all happy .

Stone_Giant

LongSiege
Mortal
posted 18 January 2002 03:38 PM EDT (US)     5 / 15       
Just curious, how early (game time) can we expect to see rushes in aom?

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SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 18 January 2002 07:03 PM EDT (US)     6 / 15       
Sounds sweet DS!

God Bless America.

I am the state.

DDT_DriverX
Mortal
posted 18 January 2002 07:35 PM EDT (US)     7 / 15       
I don't think there will be mythological towers in the game (as i have never heard of such thing in any mythologies, i could be wrong though) and it seems that ES is trying to stay fairly true to mythologies (only balance overrules being true to the mythologies/history)
Immhotep
Mortal
posted 18 January 2002 09:07 PM EDT (US)     8 / 15       
The Mythological tower idea is ok, I think, but this:

"These towers would be extremely expensive, and might take a bit off your faith every time they fire"

That's annoying and dumb, no offense. The favor cap is at 100...now why would someone want to wast some 20 favor shooting at any enemy objects that come by the tower, including villies?

Yuri
Banned
posted 19 January 2002 04:36 PM EDT (US)     9 / 15       
Hey, I would like to second Vladimir's idea on Mythological Towers. Sounds great. I also think each culture should hvae their own type of tower. Outposts in Aok were, well i thought so, useful. Especially in Black Forest map. This is because with all upgrades you can see the seige onagers cutting the tress behind your base. I think that there should be some towers that allow very long sight range. Depending on the culture of course. The idea of trenches or death holes sounds cool. The idea of the component tower from TS. Sounds cool. Aom needs defense. Like the Frankish Knight attack was pretty devastating. Halbadiers alone could fend them off for a while. But once Trebs were in the battle then the halberdiers oculdnt fend them all off. In this game, I want there to be a counter for every unit. But like in EE. Their Rock, Paper, Scissors crap was annoying. I mean who wants to have to remember all of the counters for each unit. It is a wast of time. Counters need to be easy. Like in Aok what was good against an archer? A skirmisher. THings like that. I also think that there needs to be a thing called morale for units. This boosts up building and men resistance against attack. They can live longer. That would be neat. Against god powers, there needs to be something that can prevent the assualt. Like a god power of protection or cover. Or some kind of unit that can prevent some of the god attack. Those are just some of my suggestions.
Yuri
Banned
posted 19 January 2002 04:40 PM EDT (US)     10 / 15       
I also would have to say that the favor drainage of the mu tower, is kind of dumb. I mean, who wants to waste there god power energy on villis?? If thtat had to be done. Then i think that every one or two shots would be 1 point.
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 20 January 2002 12:30 PM EDT (US)     11 / 15       
Yuri and Immhotep-

When I said tat their should be a favor cost, i did not mean 20 favor. I meant about 1 favor. Having a towre shoot at max 5 times is stupid...

This cost would prevent devestating rush tactics, and would make another use for the resource...

Thanks for your thoughts!

-Vladimir87

Sir_Deraj
Mortal
posted 20 January 2002 09:54 PM EDT (US)     12 / 15       
I am against the idea of a myth tower because even though the game isnt entirely realistic because of teh god powers it still sticks pretty close to history.There is no such thing as myth towers and I hope there will never be.Just having normal towers in AOM would be good with perhaps a few new defensive structures.

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vladimir87
Mortal
posted 21 January 2002 09:19 AM EDT (US)     13 / 15       
Well, you have got a point there, but maybe myth towers isnt the right word.

I guess my first idea was specific myth towers, but now I like my second better. Rather, you garrison a mu in the tower, and it enhanced teh tower while giving the mu protection (like he needs it)...

As for realism, you are right... There were never myth towers in mythology. The game is called AOM though, so realism isn't quite the biggest focus...

Also, lets take this screen shot just past... Was there ever any nature call god power? Not that I remember...

I do not believe that the campaigns will be that historically based either .... I might be wrong, but I think that on that rare occasion where the Egyptions contact the Norse, ES will have to read between the lines in the two culture's mythology.

It could just be like garrisoning archers inside the tower and watching more arrows come out... I think it would be pretty neat...

-Vladimir87

IV1066
Mortal
posted 21 January 2002 10:38 AM EDT (US)     14 / 15       
I just don't like it. I want to fight your MUs, not fight towers. If I want to fight wars with buildings I'll go play AoK... I hope AoM has as little building combat as possible.
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 22 January 2002 07:47 AM EDT (US)     15 / 15       
At first I was thinking myth towers taht shoot fire, or turn people to stone ect. This is the kind of thing you do not like probably because of balance...

Then I started thinking that towers should just be enhanced if you garrisoned mus inside. This would give protection to the unit, and the attack would be stronger... It wouldn't be anything really huge, just an enhancement... Still, your right, it would be annoying to have lots of towers burning your units

-Vladimir87

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