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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » How to get used to playing Supremacy?
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Topic Subject:How to get used to playing Supremacy?
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Jo93
Mortal
posted 14 September 2008 12:52 PM EDT (US)         
Hi, I'm a VERY old AoM player (I think I got it when the game was first released) and I used to play Deathmatch (with Norse) a LOT.
I was rated something decent at one point but I've completely forgoton what it was (it wasn't top 100 or anything though.)

After about 4 years (so I have nearly forgotton everything) I've decided to start playing again but with Supremacy and a different god probably (although I haven't decided.

At the moment I'm working my way through the campaign, which I never did when I played before.

I'd like to know if the game has changed much in any particular way, and some tips for Deathmatch players trying Supremacy for the first time.

Other than that, I'd just like to say Hi to all the forum members as well!

PS, I don't own the Titans expansion pack.

Thanks

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
AuthorReplies:
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 14 September 2008 02:53 PM EDT (US)     1 / 122       
well, there is a vast numer of strategy and BO's on Heaven so just read them and the newbie guide of course. try to beat the moderate comp first before you head over to ESO for supremacy. (I know what you say DaP, but I dont think so) Its also a good idea to watch some recorded games and stuff.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 14 September 2008 03:01 PM EDT (US)     2 / 122       
Yeah I will defo have to watch some recorded games!

Is it worth pracising much against the computer on more difficult levels to perfect my BO, or should I just dive straight into online play?

What is DaP? is that someone's name?

also.. what is the best time to play online in GMT?

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
Shanks13
Rogue Agent
posted 14 September 2008 03:15 PM EDT (US)     3 / 122       
Is it worth pracising much against the computer on more difficult levels to perfect my BO, or should I just dive straight into online play?
I think that playing against a computer for a few minutes to see how a certain build works would be agreeable, but to actually then fight the computer isn't such a great idea. Make sure the build works, then get online with it.
What is DaP? is that someone's name?
DaP is DeathAndPain, a forummer here. He's become rather famous for encyclopedic answers, a certain humor style, and Thor knowledge. He's got quite a lot of technical knowledge as well.

Arus_II
Mortal
posted 14 September 2008 03:24 PM EDT (US)     4 / 122       
yeah, and he also says that you have to immidiately "dive" into online-playing (even if you are nooobie-noob) while I think that you have to grasp the basics/get ur strategy right before you become ass-kicked on ESO
sdw12umdjc
Mortal
posted 14 September 2008 03:30 PM EDT (US)     5 / 122       
Just play rated games. You'll need to work on econ before military, unlike DM.

Confucious says, "Man who jump through screen door likely to strain himself."
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 15 September 2008 06:03 AM EDT (US)     6 / 122       
Well, I do agree that it can make sense to play vs moderate CPU so you learn what units you have access to, what your buildings look like and these basic things. CPU opponents are also good when you try to practice or work out a BO (build order).

In other words, CPU opponents are good as long as you are still trying to learn how to control this game.

However:
I think that you have to grasp the basics/get ur strategy right before you become ass-kicked on ESO
While the above is basically also true, you will never ever "get ur strategy right" when practicing vs CPU. To the contrary, you will get it particularly wrong and learn things that are untrue. When you play on ESO later, you will not only have to learn what real strategies look like, but also get rid of the incorrect strategical habits that the CPU taught you! In other words, you mis-learn strategy vs CPU, and are better off diving right into ESO and learn it there.

For instance, the CPU cheats. Although it does scout a little for camouflage, it does not depend on the findings. Instead, the CPU always knows the whole map and will play accordingly. You cannot "surprise" the CPU.

On the other hand, the CPU plays horribly foolish. It will keep attacking that forward fortress of yours with 10 towers behind it and a dozen vill repairing, continuously smoking up all its military in the process. No human player would be so foolish to attack such a heavily-entrenched target when there are softer alternatives. If a human did, he would at least use proper siege to minimize his losses.

Most of the strategies that you learn vs CPU will fail you online.

On the other hand: What can you lose when you dive right into the water and play online?

The answer is: Nothing. Except your self-esteem if you are an immature child that defines its own value on its AoM rating.

Of course if you join ESO with zero experience, you will lose your first games, and your rating will drop into the abyss. But what many people here do not seem to realize: You do not shatter when you hit the bottom! You will land right on your feet, on a level when your opponents are not better than you are, but they are still human and think and act as humans, so you can learn how to beat humans. From there you start your way upwards, a rewarding way as you see your rating increase along with your skill.

There is another mistake to be avoided on your way: Having the courage to go online but then being to cowardly to play rated games. If you join ESO but play only unrated "until you have learnt the game", then you will have people being frustrated about your poor skill, especially when they are your allies in a team game. You will be insulted as "noob" and kicked from hosted games.

Do not do this mistake. You are determined to learn this game, so go all the way and start playing 1v1 rated. No opponent will shout at you if you fail against them (except a few immature kids who consider it necessary to insult inferior opponents, but these are fortunately the exception). When you have played your way back up to a deserved rating of more than 1600 points, you can also play team games for fun. Or you play them rated with an ally of your own skill level before. But always remember: You cannot learn this game in team games. Team games are for fun only. You can use your knowledge there, but you cannot gain it there, because too many random factors influence the outcome, so that you can never tell whether what you did was good or bad.

So dive right into the cold water, learn the game in rated 1v1, then play whatever other game type you like for fun.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
i r n00b
Banned
posted 15 September 2008 10:06 AM EDT (US)     7 / 122       
How to get used to playing Supremacy?
Tough one.

I'll get back to you when I know the answer.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 15 September 2008 10:35 AM EDT (US)     8 / 122       
What can you lose when you dive right into the water and play online?
The mood to play! Would you still have fun in the game when you realize you are worse than (almost) every player? Of course not. You will curse aom and never play it again, or just going to play the main campaign again and again.
You do not shatter when you hit the bottom!
well, some players do (mental of course).
Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 15 September 2008 10:48 AM EDT (US)     9 / 122       
What Death say isn't realistic.

If you enter a game on ESO, no matter what rating and lacks the very basic knowledges of the game (such as building houses raises max pop, that you "need" to train additional villagers, advancing ages etc), then you have no business whatsoever even on the lowest bracket.

Learn the very basics before you waste other peoples time.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 15 September 2008 11:18 AM EDT (US)     10 / 122       
Would you still have fun in the game when you realize you are worse than (almost) every player?
Would you be so overbearing/ignorant/foolish to assume you are not when you have just begun playing the game?

Imagine you start playing table tennis. Have fun practicing that against a machine. If that kept people from learning this (or any other) sports, then I wonder why so many people are still doing sports.
What Death say isn't realistic.

If you enter a game on ESO, no matter what rating and lacks the very basic knowledges of the game (such as building houses raises max pop, that you "need" to train additional villagers, advancing ages etc), then you have no business whatsoever even on the lowest bracket.
If you had actually cared to read what I wrote, then you would have noticed that for this basic knowledge I do recommend playing vs moderate CPU. However, "moderate" is important in this respect. Once you can beat moderate, there is no point in proceeding to "hard", because then the mis-learning that I described applies. If you can beat moderate, then you know the basics and are good to go online.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 15 September 2008 11:24 AM EDT (US)     11 / 122       
My bad, I didn't notice the text above your first quote.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 15 September 2008 01:19 PM EDT (US)     12 / 122       
Would you be so overbearing/ignorant/foolish to assume you are not when you have just begun playing the game?
I dont know if I would be so, but certainly some play-campaign-get-bored-try-other-game types would be so "foolish"

And not even only those players: Do you really think that many players are so fanatic to learn this game? Well, I dont. What do you (as beginner) care that you dont realize that you just began playing this game? What you DO realize is that you suck and you think this game is boring and it sucks.

[This message has been edited by Arus_II (edited 09-15-2008 @ 01:20 PM).]

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 16 September 2008 03:57 AM EDT (US)     13 / 122       
but certainly some play-campaign-get-bored-try-other-game types would be so "foolish"
When you have mastered the whole campaign, you should already have the required basic knowledge. Practicing vs CPU will hardly help you anymore after that. You will only be doing it to improve your strategy, and will fail because the strategies that you learn vs CPU will fail you later on ESO.

In other words, you gain nothing by adding vs-CPU-games after completing the entire campaign. You will get your ass kicked on ESO either way. And these players, on whose foolishness we agree, should better be taken back to reality as quickly as possible. They cannot avoid it anyway. To the contrary, if they spend a month practicing vs CPU they will be even more convinced that they are good at this game. Their disappointment will be even greater when they get their ass handed to them on a silver plate by 1600 players. Better be beaten when you are aware that you are still a beginner, than be crushed when you already have the illusion that you are good. These are the players that start whining, call you a cheater, tower lamer, op unit lamer, op god lamer, op GP lamer, smurf, asshole, and eventually exit the game by means of OoS in the face of certain defeat, believing that doing so is righteous against a player such as you.
And not even only those players: Do you really think that many players are so fanatic to learn this game?
Yes, many are, as this forum easily reveals. But I agree that many others are not. However, you should considerate your personal stance up front. If you do not really have the will to learn this game, and just want to fool around a little for fun, that is perfectly fine. You can then get a crappy Mac and play singleplayer vs CPU for months.

But do not be surprised if you get your ass kicked on ESO by players that did care to learn how to play this game. Or if you get your ass kicked here in this forum by players who know proper game theory while you do not. When you are not prepared to invest time and work into learning the game and honing your skill, you better do not hope to achieve a good rating. Some players resort to lines like: "I never play rated, but I am pretty good at this game anyway. If I did play rated, I would become 1750 in two weeks.". I will leave this line uncommented. I guess it is pretty apparent what I think about it.

But if you do not want to work on learning the game, then what is the point in "practicing" vs CPU? There is none. Either you do desire to learn this game, then you should do it properly, against opponents that can think. Or you do not, in which case you can stick with low-level fun games and never need to practice.
What you DO realize is that you suck and you think this game is boring and it sucks.
That sentence of yours clearly reminds me of something. May I ask you a favor (and I am serious about it): Read this article. Make sure to read all of it, even though I am aware that it is not a short text. Afterwards, re-read your above sentence. You will then know what I mean.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
a_game_a_win
Mortal
posted 16 September 2008 08:20 AM EDT (US)     14 / 122       
Oh, DaP famous article. He literally means do anything to win
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 16 September 2008 10:39 AM EDT (US)     15 / 122       
Not really. If you take a closer look at the article URL, it is but part 1 of a series of articles. Replace the 1 by 2 or 3 in the URL, and you will read a look at it from a different angle.

And I was not the one who introduced this article into this forum. However, I frequently link to it, because it is so good.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 16 September 2008 11:19 AM EDT (US)     16 / 122       
Ye, Ive read that article a long time ago, but IMO you are thinking that I think "aom sucks" and that I am an play-campaign-etc. player, but I was trying to say what such a player would think when he realized he sucked. So dont say that I do not belong on this forum or so.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 17 September 2008 04:02 AM EDT (US)     17 / 122       
I never meant to express such a thing. Any mannered AoM player belongs on this forum, whether he possesses the knowledge, or desires to gain it.

I was just addressing what you said. Anyone who is a beginner in a game, a sports, or whatever other task, and believes that the game/sports/task sucks just because of that, meets the typical definition of a "scrub", as explained in that article. This is different from being inexperienced. It describes a mental blockade that prevents future improvement. Blaming a defeat on the game, an alleged enemy hack, or the not-really-defined word "lameness" is so much easier than looking for one's own mistakes that caused it.

All beginners suck; it is inevitable. Being able to deal with this is part of being mature.

If you want to improve, you need to practice. However, you sure want that training to be effective. Train vs humans right away, and you will get your ass kicked at first (along with the accompanying frustration), but soon learn your stuff and get better. Train vs CPU, and when you finally join ESO because you believe you are now good and experienced, you will get your ass kicked just the same! The difference is that with the former approach you did not waste your time with useless CPU training, and you are less disillusioned because at least you were aware up front that you were a beginner and could expect to encounter more experienced opponents.

The latter approach, however means that you join ESO full of anticipation, believing that you will play your way straight up to 1750, and then find yourself at 1550 and struggling! Or you finally join ESO but do not dare to play rated yet, so you preserve your "1750 worth"-illusion by playing only unrated team games, only to find yourself insulted by your allies and kicked from games.

Now tell me: Which approach is prone to disappoint and frustrate you more?

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 17 September 2008 12:52 PM EDT (US)     18 / 122       
Sure, this is all theorethical right, but I know that many player's opinions on the game are based on the first sight.
If you go playing rated right away, your first reaction is that it is very, very difficult to learn, and the human reaction to that is that you think the game sucks, while when you are playing vs CPU first, you (most of the time)can beat him, and you think the game is fun! You will then be owned online, but you will then wonder what you did wrong or maybe even come on AomH to learn new and better strategies.

Also, You think the computer is completely different from online-play. Of course that is, but for beginners it doesnt matter if the computer "wastes his army at your fully-defended castle thing", and real players not. He is learning anyway the things you have to know. I learned this game of playing vs CPU, and I wasnt pwnd by players immidiately.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 18 September 2008 05:33 AM EDT (US)     19 / 122       
Well, from what you said you are still being pwned by human players even now, as you are still sub-1600.

Of course I agree that different approaches may be good for different people, and that playing the game rated vs human opponents right after unpacking and installing it is pretty pointless. But when you have played your way through all the campaign, and afterwards played a couple games vs moderate CPU so that you can beat it, then you definitely know what this game has to offer. After that, playing vs hard CPU in order to learn false and useless strategies how to win is unnecessary and no longer helpful. Once you own the CPU on moderate, any further way of improvement leads through ESO. And the earlier you go there, the lesser the likelihood that you will over-estimate your own skill, resulting in disappointment and frustration.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 18 September 2008 10:56 AM EDT (US)     20 / 122       
Well, from what you said you are still being pwned by human players even now, as you are still sub-1600.
true, but that doesnt mean that the reason for that is that I learned playing vs CPU, Maybe im just not good (yet) at this.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 19 September 2008 05:00 AM EDT (US)     21 / 122       
Yes. And a possible reason for that is that you wasted your time by playing vs hard CPU, rather than efficiently practicing vs human opponents.

Of course, chances are you just are not gifted enough for a good rating. Humans are not born equal, and talent plays a great role in RTS skill, whether we like it or not.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 19 September 2008 11:35 AM EDT (US)     22 / 122       
And a possible reason for that is that you wasted your time by playing vs hard CPU, rather than efficiently practicing vs human opponents.
could be, but do I have wasted my time? Is playing a month or so vs a hard CPU completely wasting your life?
The1337JC
Mortal
posted 20 September 2008 02:51 PM EDT (US)     23 / 122       
Today I played my first ever online games. I never told anyone on this board before that I just watched the game rather than play it... heh. Anyway, today I played my first online games (6 in total) and used the self-rating as beginner. Really there is nothing to be frightened about. The bracket doesn't seem to be full of smurfs who are just looking to thrash noobs, and the game is not so advanced that even the noobs are semi-pro at the game.

I played some games today where I almost felt cheated out of my time because the opponents basically resigned a few moments after we (or in one game, just me) reached classical.

I also got my ass handed to me in a couple games, but I stayed around and tried to defend for as long as possible just to get used to it, and I learned a lot from those games. Mostly that my classical ups are much too slow for online play. Its not really optional to have ups slower than say, 5:30.

Basically I had a blast today and plan to play some more tomorrow. Online is nothing to be afraid of and certainly not something that is so rough you will be demoralized and give up the game.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 20 September 2008 06:17 PM EDT (US)     24 / 122       
I found that post hard to believe; but as I can not back it up w/ 100% evidence I will be forced to believe you. Although I am almost certain I've seen you on AOTP and AgeSanc (w/ rec games).
The1337JC
Mortal
posted 20 September 2008 08:32 PM EDT (US)     25 / 122       
Nah, you got the wrong guy. I played one game online about 4 years ago (I won, not that it matters...) and hadn't played since then. =)

Going on now, wish me luck.

(Another victory )

[This message has been edited by The1337JC (edited 09-20-2008 @ 09:49 PM).]

HellsRavageIs2OP
Banned
posted 20 September 2008 10:05 PM EDT (US)     26 / 122       
give this 1337 JC expert staff imo his career online winning % is 100. amazing imo
The1337JC
Mortal
posted 20 September 2008 10:14 PM EDT (US)     27 / 122       
Nein, I'm 5-2.

I need recs of mediteranean, I cant play it at all...
Dudis
Mortal
posted 20 September 2008 10:39 PM EDT (US)     28 / 122       
Yes. And a possible reason for that is that you wasted your time by playing vs hard CPU, rather than efficiently practicing vs human opponents.

Of course, chances are you just are not gifted enough for a good rating. Humans are not born equal, and talent plays a great role in RTS skill, whether we like it or not.
Yep, being good at a 6 year old RTS game is a real talent, only special people can have this wonderful gift. I bet chicks would so go for guys that are good at RTS games.
VB_WhiplashJC
Mortal
posted 20 September 2008 11:22 PM EDT (US)     29 / 122       
They certainly go for guys who troll on forums for 6 year old RTS games, am I right?

www.vbclan.net - Aussie/Kiwi AoT and AoE3 clan
Jo93
Mortal
posted 21 September 2008 03:24 AM EDT (US)     30 / 122       
Well this whole "getting bored" with getting absolutely thrased thing is certainly not going to be the case with me. I have deciede I want to be good at this game and I accept that it will take me some time (particularly because I won't have the chance to play it often)

I read the "do anything to win at any costs" aritcle but I don't really see how it aplies to AoM... there aren't that many cheap tricks in online play..are there?

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. It's encouraging to hear that The1337JC has just played his first few online matches with success (even if he had been stalking the game for a long while).

Anyway, more to the point, yesterday I played my first online match on Midgard as Poseidon against Hades. I lost.. but that was kinda expected.

I went to Classical at like 8 minutes or something which I hear is nowhere near quick enough and I left it FAR too late to start producing military units. He had built a foward base to my side and massed like 40 toxes and even though I managed to squeeze out a few hippokon (which should have been effective) it was too little too late.

I'm pretty sure learning to manage my economy a bit better will come with time and practise. I also think that I underestimated the importance of fishing on such a map.

Can anyone recomend some good rec. games? (for poseidon)
When is it best to start researching food techs?
and does anyone ever build wonders in online games?

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
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