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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Apollo vs Dionysus
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Topic Subject:Apollo vs Dionysus
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Vindicated
Mortal
posted 27 September 2008 06:10 PM EDT (US)         

I'm a zeus player and always find myself going Dionysus because most of the stat guides i have read ...say so

I know Gods are to be used as tools , but why do people suggest going Dionysus over Apollo mopst of the time and what are situations where you find yourself needing to use one more than the other.

Also If you dont play Zeus maybe you have some input how a Zeus players choice to choose one or the other has effected the out come of your match(es)
AuthorReplies:
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 27 September 2008 07:19 PM EDT (US)     1 / 48       
Well I usually choose Dionysus because his MU is the Hydra and Skylla.

Hydra's are powerful against buildings and units, especially since they can multiply there heads making them even stronger.

Another reason is because he gives you the Bronze God Power which increases human units armour for a short period of time. Perfect for when you are attacking someones base because it protects your vunerable units from guard towers, forts, and town centers and the other enemies soldiers.

If you chose him and hermes you can get some good bonus upgrades for calvary aswell.

Now with Apollo, well his underworld passage is very useful for getting around the map, It is a good idea to locate one between you and a allies base.

The Manticore, I find to be a bit unaccurate and overall not that great.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 27 September 2008 08:48 PM EDT (US)     2 / 48       
manticore op;

Dionysus mostly for stability, depends on classical age god actually, go him if u went non-hermes (rough, not static).

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 09-29-2008 @ 06:05 PM).]

Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 00:20 AM EDT (US)     3 / 48       
Well I usually choose Dionysus because his MU is the Hydra and Skylla.

Hydra's are powerful against buildings and units, especially since they can multiply there heads making them even stronger.

The Manticore, I find to be a bit unaccurate and overall not that great.
The Hydra is not really that great of a unit. It's very slow and big = pathing issues, melee only and like most MU's it loses easily to heroes (which it cannot run from). Nobody somewhat competent will let your Hydra(s) kill off alot of human units for growing heads. If he does, he deserves to lose.

Scylla is a great unit on the other hand. It can easily win the sea for you. You indirectly force your opponent to research the expensive Heroic Fleet or start making water MU's himself, both of which gives you an advantage.

Oh, and the Manticore is not a bad unit. It does massive damage to groups of human units. Infact, I can hardly think of a better counter for massed archers.

[This message has been edited by Nirwanda (edited 09-28-2008 @ 00:22 AM).]

sdw12umdjc
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 00:31 AM EDT (US)     4 / 48       
The Hydra is not really that great of a unit.
I disagree. Hydra is best Greek heroic myth unit in my opinion. It eats up the targeting of the enemy units and because of its high hp it helps the rest of your army stay alive longer. Hydra > Manticore. That doesn't mean Manticore is bad.

There are definitely times to pick either god. Most often Dionysus is the better choice because of the cavalry upgrade, all unit hp upgrade and god power that wins a battle. Whoever said Dionysus was for economy is confused because he has no economic advantages.

Confucious says, "Man who jump through screen door likely to strain himself."
Dudis
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 00:39 AM EDT (US)     5 / 48       
Manticore>Petsuchos?
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 00:55 AM EDT (US)     6 / 48       
I disagree. Hydra is best Greek heroic myth unit in my opinion. It eats up the targeting of the enemy units and because of its high hp it helps the rest of your army stay alive longer. Hydra > Manticore. That doesn't mean Manticore is bad.
I totally agree with you, the Hydra is like a berserker, very tough and defeats many foes. But most likely will die in the end.

What I like to do is send in MU that are good against Infantry then while the soldiers are concentrated on them, I send in my other solders.

If you have seen Lord of the Rings TTT, then you will remember the battle scene at Helms Deep, and how the Berserkers were first deployed onto the walls to buy time for the rest of the Uruk-Hai army to break through.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 28 September 2008 02:03 AM EDT (US)     7 / 48       
Excellent inference.

You should be a scholar, u do know that, don't u?
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 03:14 PM EDT (US)     8 / 48       
Excellent inference.

You should be a scholar, u do know that, don't u?
Heh thanks, but to be honest I dont do that great in school. Like don't get me wrong, im not dumb I just dont take great interest in school work.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 04:29 PM EDT (US)     9 / 48       
I think deciding depending upon MUs is a bit of an oversight.

If u watch many rec games at high ratings, they hardly create many MUs at all in general. It is probably better to decide on your god considering other benefits as well.

Apollo has a 10% attack technology for archers whereas Dionysus has a 20% HP tech for cavelry and a 5% HP bonus for ALL units which seems pretty useful.

Apollo's underworld passage allows quite a lot of tactical flexibility but it may not be as fantastic as it looks at first sight.

Bronze lasts pretty long actually and can definately turn the tide for a crucial battle but again it is not amazing as it only has 1 use.

Overall, I would chose Dionysus for his HP techs and bronze...

I always chose him because I am a possie player, but I'm definately not an expert...

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
Shanks13
Rogue Agent
posted 28 September 2008 05:56 PM EDT (US)     10 / 48       
5% HP bonus for ALL units
One of the best techs, IMO.

Vindicated
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 08:12 PM EDT (US)     11 / 48       
I have to agree with the majority i guess, i just find so many times i could fly a pegasus over and drop Underworld and /gameover if i would have only gone Apollo
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 00:42 AM EDT (US)     12 / 48       
No one can say the Hydra sucks!
Today I played a game, and I had a 3 headed hydra from destroying some obliesks and abandoned granaries and such..
Then when I got to the enemy base I swear it killed 9+ soldiers and stayed alive for a whole minute!

Thats alot when theres like 10 soldiers atatcking you at once, then more coming through!

When it has 5 heads it kills a medium axeman and spearmen in 2 hits.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.

[This message has been edited by Hedrought (edited 09-29-2008 @ 00:43 AM).]

Arus_II
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 01:56 AM EDT (US)     13 / 48       
but a real players would not send his standard units to the hydra, he sends his heroes in.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 02:07 AM EDT (US)     14 / 48       
A I mentioned earlier Vindicated, I don't think Underworld Passage is as good as many less experienced players perceive it to be.

It's not REALLY match turning.. you're either winning or you're not. Put that right behind your enemies base and you might catch him by surprise and daeal a bit of damage ot his economy, but he'll cut ur men to bits in no time, and then you'll have no army defending your base...

I just wanted to copy this from a guide on this site:
While this can be very strategically powerful, it's not very flexible, and won't have a good use in all games. Don't be surprised if you end a game and find you haven't used Underworld Passage.

The obvious use of this GP is to bypass obstacles to attack from an unexpected quarter. Such things as walls, mountains, bodies of water etc that the enemy counts on to keep you out can be bypassed quickly, and allow your army to pour in and attack from an undefended side. Alternately, if you need to get your army somewhere quickly, it helps as well. Perhaps your ally is under attack and by the time you get there, he'll have taken a huge amount of damage. Perhaps your own town is under attack and your army is on the other side of the map.

Underworld passages cannot be repaired, so protect them carefully. In AoM: The Titans, however, villagers are able to repair them as if it were a building. Also, like regular buildings, they are very vulnerable to siege weapons and MU's who deal crush damage.
Give that a read, it's worth it.

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 02:51 AM EDT (US)     15 / 48       
Both Apollo and Dionysus are valid choices for Zeus. However, in singleplayer matches Dionysus often delivers the better package, especially when Hermes has been chosen for classical god, Rackham, because Dionysus makes the hipps that Hermes speeded up actually worthwhile.

As Shanks mentioned, the 5% hp bonus is not to be underestimated. Some people make the mistake just to look at the small number, but remember that you get those 5% on everything! What do you think is better: 15% for, say, your archers only, or 5% for your whole army, including heroes, infantry, cavalry, archers, siege, myth units, even your titan!

The bronze power is excellent. Its effect is weaker than Flaming Weapons, but in return it is the non-infinite GP that lasts longest in the whole game!

Hydras are very good. True is that you should not count on obtaining multiple heads with them, but even one-head-hydras are very good if you look at their stats. They are big and have messy pathing, but so do elephants, and they are still op. That being said, the hydra is not the best Greek heroic MU. The Nemean Lion is. (Zeus cannot get that one though.)

Apollo's Underworld Passage is most valuable in team games. It does have some use in 1v1, but to a reduced effect unless the map is Mediterranean, where it is really valuable to connect both edges of the map so that your army can practically cover both of them simultaneously.

His archer upgrade is meh, IMHO. Just another archer upgrade. Archers are important, but this particular upgrade will not make much of a difference.

Temple healing is negligible in most cases. It sounds great in theory, but in real games you will rarely have a temple near the action even if you plan on making one. If you do, it can still only heal one unit at a time, even though that one is healed at high speed. Would be good if it could be used to heal damaged hydras so they survive to grow more heads, but that is impossible for obvious reasons.
If you have seen Lord of the Rings TTT, then you will remember the battle scene at Helms Deep
...where the riders of Rohan charged all-out with their cavalry against a closed line of long lances, which are pretty much the best cavalry counter in existence. In reality, horses would refuse to attack against this, and if for some reason they did anyway, they would be impaled immediately, achieving nothing in the attack. It was ridiculous that the riders could win this. You can attack swordbearers or archers using cavalry, but the prime use of lances is to counter cavalry, and the orcs had a well-deployed line of 100% spearmen there. So much to the realism of the Lord of the Ring Helm's Deep battle.
No one can say the Hydra sucks!
Today I played a game, and I had a 3 headed hydra from destroying some obliesks and abandoned granaries and such..
No offense intended, but remember the skill level on which you are still playing. A decent opponent would immediately delete abandoned granaries when the enemy is using it to grow heads for his hydra (or gather favor in case of Norse).

What you can do is kill huntables that you know you will not need using your hydra. Might be good to gain a head or something, but in most cases even this will not be worth the necessary time and micro.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 30 September 2008 00:06 AM EDT (US)     16 / 48       
...where the riders of Rohan charged all-out with their cavalry against a closed line of long lances, which are pretty much the best cavalry counter in existence. In reality, horses would refuse to attack against this, and if for some reason they did anyway, they would be impaled immediately, achieving nothing in the attack. It was ridiculous that the riders could win this. You can attack swordbearers or archers using cavalry, but the prime use of lances is to counter cavalry, and the orcs had a well-deployed line of 100% spearmen there. So much to the realism of the Lord of the Ring Helm's Deep battle.
Lol no that part was not that realistic, but I can see that deploying berserkers on a wall first to buy time for the main infantry to get up as a realistic strategy, since the Berserkers are very tough and hard to kill, so they get on the top right away, meanwhile if they put the ladder up without any berserkers then well.. the infantry climbing the ladders would get slaughtered...
No offense intended, but remember the skill level on which you are still playing. A decent opponent would immediately delete abandoned granaries when the enemy is using it to grow heads for his hydra (or gather favor in case of Norse).

What you can do is kill huntables that you know you will not need using your hydra. Might be good to gain a head or something, but in most cases even this will not be worth the necessary time and micro.
Come on be resonable with the Hydra it massacre's with 5 heads, and Believe it or not the granaries belonged to a online player... But anyways thanks for the tip! I probably woulden't have done anythign if a hydra was to attack an abandoned building of mine, but now I know better.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 01 October 2008 02:52 AM EDT (US)     17 / 48       
What do you think is better: 15% for, say, your archers only, or 5% for your whole army, including heroes, infantry, cavalry, archers, siege, myth units, even your titan!


Not if your army is more than a 1/3 archers...

If ur army is 50% archers 50% anything else, you will get +7.5% hp on average rather than 5%...

I bet ur gunna tell me that an army of more than a 3rd archers is unlikely with Zues and that the dinosyus tech is more flexible cos u can change units. AND it's better to have the extra HP evenly distributed.

I am a big fan of Dionysus though, I don't need any swaying. and Bronze DOES rock for a timed GP.

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 01 October 2008 05:15 AM EDT (US)     18 / 48       
If ur army is 50% archers 50% anything else, you will get +7.5% hp on average rather than 5%...
Remember that these remaining 50% must also contain your myth units, your heroes, and your siege, leaving little pop space for your non-archer human units. (Especially as Greek, your heroic siege is among the best traits of your race!) Such a unidimensional army is easy to counter in many cases. And when you find your enemy making tons of archer counters, so you need to change the composition of your army, you find yourself lacking flexibility, because as the share of archers in your army decreases, so does the benefit of your upgrade. Also remember the value of titan hps, especially with regard to how well-armored a titan is!

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 02 October 2008 12:57 PM EDT (US)     19 / 48       
Bachanalia+ monstrous rage = Titan OP
marcus owns all
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 00:20 AM EDT (US)     20 / 48       
2 hydras sitting in ur economic base can hold off 4 ages until ur army gets back, and can force an army with no heroes into retreat in seconds. With the aid of a few towers and soldiers, they are very effective.

On the other hand, 2 many times has my economy been crippled by suprise back-attacks 4 me to disregard the underworld passage. U can start secret bases behind enemy lines or destroy bases with the passage's surprise advantage. The manticore and bronze have never dealt crippling damage to me and i don't know much about them, so i won't count them in the equasion.

Overall, I would say dionyssus is more defensive while apollo is more offensive.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 04:10 AM EDT (US)     21 / 48       
On the other hand, 2 many times has my economy been crippled by suprise back-attacks 4 me to disregard the underworld passage.
When he casts the passage, click your middle mouse button to be taken to the place where he casted it, even if it is outside your vision.
Overall, I would say dionyssus is more defensive while apollo is more offensive.
I would say the opposite.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 01:08 PM EDT (US)     22 / 48       
When he casts the passage, click your middle mouse button to be taken to the place where he casted it, even if it is outside your vision.
I think he meant a suprise attack in the middle of your base, so you already know it when he attacks, but you cant do much about it..
Jo93
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 03:18 PM EDT (US)     23 / 48       
If performed well an underworld passage attack could seriously criple your economy, but they have to have LOS of where to cast it (I think), which they wont have in ur base which they wont have if the battle is in the middle of the map and if the battle is near ur town and they do have LOS of your base, then underworld passage doesn't change the area they are fighting in by much.

ALSO, in a secret underworld passage attack they will have to mass up a seperat army to send in, so in this time, you should be beating them elsewhere on the map.

That is just my opinion.

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 01:15 AM EDT (US)     24 / 48       
Ye, you have to have LOS, but a pegasus will sufice. Also, if you send part of ur army to passage, he will defeat you in the main battle, but he will quickly pull back because you destroy his base.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 02:35 AM EDT (US)     25 / 48       
I think he meant a suprise attack in the middle of your base, so you already know it when he attacks, but you cant do much about it..
Nope, nobody does such an attack, and for good reason: His army will not show up there at once. Even with the passage, it takes his army some time to pass through the gate. This means that part of his army will already be in your base and taking damage from your buildings while the rest is not yet there.

Also, due to building fire he is at an extreme disadvantage. Okay, you may need a little to withdraw your troops there, but normally you will eventually beat him anyway. Some players think that destroying the enemy home TC is an automatic win. Well, it is not. A TC is a mere 300w/300g/100f (even cheaper for Eggy and Atl). The losses in troops that he suffers in this kamizake attack are easily greater than that. He would be repulsed, and afterwards the TC would be rebuilt in no time.

Also remember that Greek is no kamikaze race like Norse. Instead, they are the only race with ranged siege in heroic age and super-strong fortresses and should make use of this advantage. The real sneak attack that is based on the underworld passage targets an area near the enemy home base, but outside vision of it. Optimal case is if there is still an unclaimed TC to be taken, but this is not compulsory. Right after casting the passage, some vills go through, along with the army, and immediately make a fortress right outside enemy tower LOS. The other player then ends up having an enemy fortress sitting within petrobolos range of his home TC. This fortress produces the petroboli right there, and from here the Greek can start dismantling the enemy home base without losing a man and without needing to fight within enemy building fire. To the contrary: If the enemy wants to do something about the attacking petroboli, he will have to fight the Greek army within fortress fire. Another added bonus is that this way the passage will not be destroyed after the attack, but can remain there for an unlimited amount of time, extendedly allowing the Greek to attack the enemy both from the front and from the rear.

But again, the middle mouse button reveals the location of the passage (if the enemy cannot guess it anyway), and if he reacts quickly, appropiately and with determination I find that it is usually possible to repulse this before the fortress is up at least for Thor. Which is why I prefer Dionysus in 1v1. Underworld passage is best on Medi to cover both sides, but here Dionysus would mean scylla, so it is a tough decision.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
agiyr
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 12:40 PM EDT (US)     26 / 48       
I'm a new Zeus player and I've asked myself this question many times, as well as asked myself why I'm going for Hermes all the time for classical. felt just like you - That I picked the gods because the stat guides told me to. But from my own exp. with Zeus, I really think that Dionysus is better overall.
When I decided that Hermes would be my main classical choice I knew that I couldn't use Apollo witch was a shame cause I really liked Apollo first, but that was the first time I played AoM and I didn't know much of the game.
The reason of why I pick Dionysus is that my hippokons gets stronger. The focus on calavry on both Hermes and Dionysus is very good because they make calavry a fighting unit that actually will overcome the hoplites at the Heroic age.
I don't really use myth units much, but I really like the Hydra. Sure, the manticore is good and it can support your army without getting hitted by heroes as much as the Hydras, but you won't afford the wood cost if you have centaurs. My wood is a problem because of the high farm costs and the military buildings - and you need to buy the forretress in heroic. I just can't afford to buy manticores.
but that's not the only reason of why I like the Hydras. The manticores can't be used as good as the hydras offensive. They can't tare down buildings, witch is a big problems when you havn't got many siege weapons. Besides, the Scylla is a must have in a water map if you want to use Hermes even in land maps. They will give you the control over the water very easily.
About the god powers, The underworld passage is simply not as good as the bronze power in 1 vs 1. You wont really waste a lot of time by walking instead of teleporting, and the Bronze power can be used defensive as well as offensive.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 01:17 PM EDT (US)     27 / 48       
The reason of why I pick Dionysus is that my hippokons gets stronger. The focus on calavry on both Hermes and Dionysus is very good because they make calavry a fighting unit that actually will overcome the hoplites at the Heroic age.
the con of that is that your enemies can counter you when you are massing hips, even with all those upgrades. If you choose athena/appolo, you can fall back on other good units when you find yourself countered.
witch is a big problems when you havn't got many siege weapons.
The greeks are the only civ with a ranged siege unit in Heroic.

btw: it is "wich" and not "witch"
This means that part of his army will already be in your base and taking damage from your buildings while the rest is not yet there
If you cast it in the middle of your army/right beside it, it wont take long to get your army in there (at the most 3/3.5 seconds)

oh, and of you are smart, you take some pertobolii with you, so you can destroy his fortresses/TCs quickly, at least so quick that they wont do much harm with their arrows.
muforseti
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 01:49 PM EDT (US)     28 / 48       
btw: it is "wich" and not "witch"
"which",,even i kno that1!!
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 03:19 PM EDT (US)     29 / 48       
REALLY?? thats very clever of you!
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 07 October 2008 05:51 PM EDT (US)     30 / 48       
Grammar class all in session, please rise!

Btw, all the reasons ppl are giving for their opinion on which god are for all the wrong reasons, seriously, look up the game a bit more before you post something ignorant.
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