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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Upgrades or More Units?
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Topic Subject:Upgrades or More Units?
Jo93
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 02:51 PM EDT (US)         
Should you leave the upgrades (for medium spearmen and slingers) at the Barracks untill you have completely filled your pop limit?

I know a lot of people who say that it is more important to get more troops than to get these upgrades but if you are creating LOADS of troops but they are fighting and dieing continuosly then it will take ages to max out on pop by which time I may have created over 100 spears/slingers, so getting the upgrade would have been worthwhile because it would have made them all stronger...

On that note, I have noticed, when looking at post-match statistics, that often create far more military units than my opponent but they kill far more of my units than I do of theirs, even when I win. I think this is due to poor micro (because I am constantly concentrating on economy and all sorts as well as battles) and also because my untis tend to get hurt a lot by towers which makes them really easy for the enemy units to clean up. Should I possibly be holding my units back from battle more untill I know that I can definately win, or are the increased casualties part of simply being more aggresive?

Thanks in advanced,
Jo

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..

[This message has been edited by Jo93 (edited 10-05-2008 @ 02:51 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
sdw12umdjc
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 03:15 PM EDT (US)     1 / 26       
If you have 5 of any unit it is worth while to get the line upgrade.

Also, if you are taking alot of losses due to towers then you probably aren't using enough siege.

Confucious says, "Man who jump through screen door likely to strain himself."
Jo93
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 04:02 PM EDT (US)     2 / 26       
Really? 5? that's a lot less sthan I thought, I will be getting these upgrades sooner then! Is that the same for ALL of them or just the "medium" ones.

I am talking about classical, in which there is no seige to be used..

I am also not sure whether the losses are just due to towers. I think I lack micro and also tend to send my units in in dribs and drabs a bit too much rather than sending in a large army at once. Is it better to send your units in larger groups, or should you focus on keeping the pressure on, right from the very start?

Perhaps I am to afraid to withdraw troops once they have started to attack...

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
lacan7
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 05:08 PM EDT (US)     3 / 26       
5... it' s a joke...
I'd say about 20 of the same unit.

Anyway avoid to fight under tower fire. And in the classical age you could use against towers myth units who deal crush damage (if you can afford them).

Don't hesitate to withdraw if your enemy has a larger or better army.

[This message has been edited by lacan7 (edited 10-05-2008 @ 05:21 PM).]

sdw12umdjc
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 06:26 PM EDT (US)     4 / 26       
5 is not a joke if you're going to be classical fighting. When you hit that many of one unit and you know you'll be making more there is no reason not to get the line upgrade.

Confucious says, "Man who jump through screen door likely to strain himself."
Dudis
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 06:49 PM EDT (US)     5 / 26       
Upgrade Upgrade Upgrade! Dont make a single unit till you have upgraded everything!
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 05 October 2008 07:36 PM EDT (US)     6 / 26       
fighting and dieing continuosly
Try to avoid this if you can. If you're flooding soldiers straight from your barracks into a big army, you lose all your soldiers and don't get many kills in return. If you do this, this would explain why your enemies have more kills than you. Whether you're hitting him with 5 spearmen at a time, or 5 medium spearmen makes no difference.

For the most part, you want to keep your units alive until you have enough to pose a threat.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 01:02 AM EDT (US)     7 / 26       
Upgrade Upgrade Upgrade! Dont make a single unit till you have upgraded everything!
sarcasm, I hope?
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 03:13 AM EDT (US)     8 / 26       
Lots of trashy advice to be found in this thread, IMHO.

Jo93, the Robocop prime directive that numbers > upgrades holds true. It is safe to trust it.
but if you are creating LOADS of troops but they are fighting and dieing continuosly then it will take ages to max out on pop by which time I may have created over 100 spears/slingers, so getting the upgrade would have been worthwhile because it would have made them all stronger...
I see your point, but your logics is flawed. You can only create 100 spears/slingers if you are constantly losing units. There are only two possible reasons for this:

  • You are making the mistake that HailToTheOboe mentioned by sending a constant stream of new units into a losing battle, where they keep being outnumbered and slaughtered. A widespread beginner mistake. Don't.

  • You are fighting a major battle and have your barracks set to aq with their rally point at the place of the battle. This is a reasonable scenario.

    But for both cases, you need to keep another Robocop prime directive in mind, which is the guideline behind what HailToTheOboe said: The stronger army takes the lesser losses. The effect of this is huge. If you test 8 hoplites vs 7 hoplites in the editor, you will have an outcome like 8 hops win with 4 hops still standing!

    This is obviously the reason why the first of the above bullet represents a tactical mistake. The enemy not only kills all your reinforcements, he also does so with almost no casualties. You are not "trading" your reinforcement spearmen against his stuff. You are losing them without gaining anything in return.

    But even in the case of the second bullet, this is the reason why you should not go for military upgrades before hitting pop limit. Yes, over time you are making 100 spears/slings in that large battle, but at the beginning of this battle you have, say, 4 rax at your disposal and need to make a choice whether to train stuff or research upgrades. If you train stuff in all 4 rax, you may get the upper hand or at least stand your ground in the battle. However, if you use 1-2 of your rax to research line upgrades (or if you use your precious early resources to research armory ups instead of training military), then you will temporarily be outnumbered on the battlefield. This means that the enemy will kill the output of your remaining barracks at near zero losses, and by the time your upgrade is completed, your units are dead, and the battle is lost.

    Upgrades are a good thing when you have the time to research them. But this time is not a major battle where you are constantly smoking up the output of all your rax (or all the resources that you can come up with).

    And again, always see whether you can win this battle at all. If you realize that you are being overpowered on the battlefield, being a smart coward is better than being a brave moron. Run for your life, even if the pursuing enemy inflicts some additional losses on you, and fight again later when the odds are better. Losing units to pursuing enemy attackers without fighting back may feel bad, but when outnumbered you would not have achieved anything. Losing your whole army once often enough decides the game, because the enemy army can crush your base before you had the time to produce a complete new army. Keep an eye on your pop count. If it drops too far, then retreat with what you have left. The time may suffice to replace your partial losses before he can crush your base, but it rarely suffices to train a complete new army.

    Darkness is a state of mind
    Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
    Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
  • Dudis
    Mortal
    posted 06 October 2008 06:00 AM EDT (US)     9 / 26       
    My post was sarcasm.
    muforseti
    Mortal
    posted 06 October 2008 12:04 PM EDT (US)     10 / 26       
    what u need to do is make for eco upgrades and unit do not medium upglol
    Nirwanda
    Mortal
    posted 06 October 2008 12:15 PM EDT (US)     11 / 26       
    What's with you and spamming crap over these forums anyway, Dudis?
    Major_Rackham
    Banned
    posted 06 October 2008 06:31 PM EDT (US)     12 / 26       
    I would suggest an official/unofficial warning as this really does annoy me and probably plenty other people, but I am not a moderator, just a suggestion mind you.
    Dudis
    Mortal
    posted 06 October 2008 07:00 PM EDT (US)     13 / 26       
    I only made 2 stupid posts, nothing else....
    Major_Rackham
    Banned
    posted 06 October 2008 07:09 PM EDT (US)     14 / 26       
    I was tired of them by the first.
    Arus_II
    Mortal
    posted 07 October 2008 01:00 AM EDT (US)     15 / 26       
    muforseti is more annoying, with his bad spelling/grammar/guides/comments.
    DeathAndPain
    Mortal
    posted 07 October 2008 03:51 AM EDT (US)     16 / 26       
    Yeah guys. Let the backseat moderation begin.

    Darkness is a state of mind
    Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
    Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
    Dudis
    Mortal
    posted 07 October 2008 03:53 AM EDT (US)     17 / 26       
    29

    "Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
    72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
    "I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
    " I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
    "Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
    Arus_II
    Mortal
    posted 07 October 2008 11:23 AM EDT (US)     18 / 26       
    29
    ???
    Roxas
    Mortal
    (id: silvermoon)
    posted 07 October 2008 12:39 PM EDT (US)     19 / 26       
    AOM taunts


    ||||||||||||||||My Videos||||||||||||||||
    Roxas, his heart was human, yet because of his status as a being his fate was sealed since he was born. How many times must humanity judge others like that as well without giving them a fair chance?

    "It would be very irresponsible of me to give you my thoughts as you are clearly incapable of handling the ones you already have" ~some guy in OD

    Prologue: version 0.9.8.1: www.trotd.co.nr
    Arus_II
    Mortal
    posted 07 October 2008 03:20 PM EDT (US)     20 / 26       
    ah
    Major_Rackham
    Banned
    posted 07 October 2008 05:54 PM EDT (US)     21 / 26       
    Roxas, you haven't been here in quite a while unless I just simply haven't noticed you, what made you come back?
    Jo93
    Mortal
    posted 12 October 2008 01:08 PM EDT (US)     22 / 26       
    I still can't see a difinative answer from this thread...

    ...some have said 5 or "as soon as possible" whereas DaP seems to be more in the "quantity>quality camp"

    Does it depend on what I expect to happen? E.g. If I feel there is going to be some time before a fight occurs I should get the upgrades but if I know there will be lots of early fighting I should focus on getting as many units as possible?

    I really wish there was some way of differentiating between conflicting advice on these forums... I have seen many times something like 3 or 4 different answers posted in the same thread... you don't know if whoever's telling you is a complete noob, or a real expert...

    I KNOW it would be really difficult to control and people would exaggerate theirs, but it would be really helpful to have the rating of forumers displayed.

    Actually, if anyone would mind telling me who are the real "experts" on the forum around this point in time, I would be very grateful =]

    Are there many 1800+s?

    Returned to AoM after about 4 years
    Strictly vanilla player... only..
    Arus_II
    Mortal
    posted 12 October 2008 01:29 PM EDT (US)     23 / 26       
    No, not many, but the members you have to take serious with their advice are: DeathandPain, i r noob, and of course many, many others but you can see for yourself who you trust. And of course you can even accept the advice of "noobs", they dont give wrong advice always, and if you want to know the answer to a question, you can test it for yourself at ESO or in the editor.
    DeathAndPain
    Mortal
    posted 13 October 2008 02:49 AM EDT (US)     24 / 26       
    I really wish there was some way of differentiating between conflicting advice on these forums...
    Just read all of the conflicting advices and go for the one that sounds convincing to you. A guideline here may be the reason provided for a particular standpoint. In many cases, you will find that advice is given without any explanation why. (That does include this thread.) This is often an indication for n00b advice. Another indication for n00b advice are sentences that start with "I usually" (in other words, the player explains how he plays without even daring to claim that what he does is actually good). If you want to find out, ask for the reason and see whether the person that gave the advice is able to back it up in a convincing manner.

    When a discussion on the subject evolves, you should usually be able to tell who knows his stuff and who does not.

    Darkness is a state of mind
    Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
    Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
    jer292
    Mortal
    posted 15 October 2008 00:52 AM EDT (US)     25 / 26       
    just play a death match all the improvements r researched 4 you in each age so just fill up pop

    AoM is for life, life is for AoM...
    DeathAndPain
    Mortal
    posted 15 October 2008 03:09 AM EDT (US)     26 / 26       
    DM is a totally different type of game. You cannot transfer DM experience 1:1 to Supremacy.

    Darkness is a state of mind
    Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
    Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
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