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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Getting rushed by norse.
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Topic Subject:Getting rushed by norse.
buppy
Mortal
(id: pubby8)
posted 21 June 2009 01:57 PM EDT (US)         
Most norse games go like this:

I'm Ra. I advance around 6:00. In the beginning of classical, I get raided from RC and hesirs, which take out my towers and keep my villagers off of resources. Of course I have trained a handful of priests and usualy some spearmen, but I never can hold him off.

What should I do? Every now and then I'll see his temple going up, and I'll send around 5 villies to go kill it, but the ulfsark usually gets away rebuilds it on the other side. Walling never works cause I need the gold for a decent heroic time, and sending 20 villies to build barracks won't work either.

I'm not exactly a good player (1550-1650 is what I've been), but I feel that I could be better if I could get past age 2 on rushers.
AuthorReplies:
tools956
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 02:01 PM EDT (US)     1 / 29       
DragonQ -> Axemen are always useful vs Norse. How do they counter them? TA or Cavalry. What counters TA and Cavalry? Camels do...however, it's more beneficial to use Horus Spearmen to counter Cavalry and if they switch to TA, use Slingers. If they continually use both, micro is needed. But this does mean you can spam Barracks (which are cheap) and easily equal the Norse's troop production rate, as long as your economy can keep up. Any Migdols you have are a bonus because you can train groups of CA to raid, or make a few Elephants, which are always good to have in your army.

Early on, Axemen and Spearmen is a good combination - they are unlikely to use TA very early since they'll be using Ulfsarks or Hersir and raiding with RC.

I would say Ptah and Horus are the best God choices against Norse. It would be better to go Osiris vs a Loki MU spammer (because of the absence of Nepthys), but this means you'll need to use Camels to counter Cavalry instead of Horus Spearmen. They are a a bit less effective, but the main problem is that you have probably been using a lot of Barracks units so might not have many Migdols. Try to shift to Migdol Units before hitting Mythic so you can immediately switch to Camels if you need them (don't forget Elephants as always), and have 2 Temples at your forward base to make Mummies for MUs (as well as getting 2 Pharaohs + SOO).

Rocs and Petsuchos are great vs Norse, so Hathor is the best choice normally. If you are down a TC or have been attacked since very early on by a forward base, Sekhmet is probably better for the +10 Pop and Scarabs. If you do go Sekhmet, try to make use of Bone Bow before they start getting large amounts of Huskarls.

Norse Buildings are weak. Catapults are uber. Great combination there, have 2 Seige Works pumping out Seige as soon as you're in Heroic, but switch to Catapults when you can, and have them defended by Anti-Cavalry Units.


another:


As always it depends on the situation. I go Bast -> Hathor -> Osiris most of the time because this gives you:

Eclipse for a Titan battle, or to boost your MUs in a big fight, or simply to stop other GPs.
Petsuchos and Rocs, not to mention Sun Dried Mud Brick which is uber for farms, Wonders, and Migdols.
Uber Camels, and a second Pharaoh and Son of Osiris which help Ra's problem against MUs with high pierce armour.

However, there are many ocassions where I'd go Sekhmet instead of Hathor - against an agressive forward builder it gives you two Seige options so if you have no wood but you have lots of food you can still make seige. Also, the extra range for Chariots is great especially when combined with burning pitch, not to mention +10 population space from Citadel.

Ptah should be used against Loki, Set, Kronos and Oranos most of the time because they'll attack early and you need to fight in Classical. Wadjets are especially good against Norse and Gaia too. Horus should only be used IMO when you don't think you need Osiris' upgrades but the Tornado could win you the game (I did this in my last rated game), OR if the game has gone to Mythic and you've already gone Ptah and Sekhmet because with this God Path you can get great Barracks units.


I R Noob (Banned idk why)

This BO will get you a 4:59 (or a few secs later, depends on the map) Classical time with good economy:

research Hunting Dogs
6f
3g
1f
1 makes house, then makes monument, then goes to wood
1 helps with monument, then goes to wood
1w
1w (total of 4w)
1 temple, then rest of houses
rest gold till 3:59, then hit advance (can also be later, depends)

This BO allows for a 6:00ish advance with 2 monuments and 10~11 farms:

first vills build monu, then to food
7f (in total 7f, so not 9f)
1g
2w
1 house, then second monument, then rest of houses
research pickaxe
4g
rest herdables, temple when you have 100 gold, husbandry when you have 100 wood
~when your hunters are ready put them on herdables~

At 5:00, ring the Town Bell and then quickly ring it again, like this your villagers will gather in the town center where you are eating your herdables and automatically drop off your resources without wasting valuable time. Now you advance and put everyone on gold, then you make 11 farms. Around 5:45~6:00 you have 10~11 farms, click rain.



Personal:

6 mins is too long to advance vs norse

axeman is your best unit friend

walls are you best building friend

put houses around your towers

don't use your villies to destroy the temple, use the pharaoh to scout and then kill the ulf/builder -> then knock down the temple. Use those villies for more resoureces! ( p.s. it will kill the ulf no problem)

[This message has been edited by tools956 (edited 06-21-2009 @ 02:35 PM).]

Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 02:12 PM EDT (US)     2 / 29       
You should make houses and walls around your towers to protect them from his raids, with focus on the tower protecting your starting gold. If you do this properly, there is no way he can keep you from getting to heroic unless you have unlucky forward gold, and even then it's hard for him.

There are other ways too. You can priest rush his hunters (2-3 priests can be enough to do this) and stuff.

Just play.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

Gandalf - JRR Tolkein. The Fellowship of the Ring
iamdork
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 03:10 PM EDT (US)     3 / 29       
Houses and small wall links as needed around towers plus crenalations (critical) will keep RC at bay. A few axemen for hersirs (can be used againts RC if within tower or tc range) and couple priests for myth if they are rushing. With that you should be able to get to Heroic and get started on mig. The longer you stay in classical the better for them.
OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 04:26 PM EDT (US)     4 / 29       
Dork it would be better if you knew what you were talking about. All you need to do is guard towers, don't get crennalated towers, you can't afford them especially if you're making axes/spears. Slingers can be useful to help kill low pierce armor hersir/ulfs. Honestly I'd just keep spears guarding my hunt until you move to herdables. Also, since your towers should be guarded, make his units fight within tower fire. If you can keep him off until you get a midgol up your chances only improve. One final thought, wall off routes where his rc could enter from.

Kan_Jmann
buppy
Mortal
(id: pubby8)
posted 21 June 2009 04:43 PM EDT (US)     5 / 29       
Thanks for the tips. I'll certainly try some of them out.

At the first sign he's spamming cavalry, I usually get crenelations and build a short (1-2 segments) wall around wood+gold causing him to go around. I also build houses around towers, but their army usually takes them out no problem, leaving me with little pop and no towers.

Question:
Axemen or spearmen against TA? I usually don't get a great deal of slingers (around 5 an army), and I'm wondering which is better.
Eddy_Current
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 05:00 PM EDT (US)     6 / 29       
Ah beating Norse with Ra is easy (on land maps)

High Hunt: 7 food (with hunting dogs) 4 gold, rest to food again. pharaoh empowers gold after scouting and gold vils + phar build temple
=> 4 min classic, during adv (through Ptah) you brought up your pharaoh and priest, shift them together with some vils, ox cart if you're lucky some hersir/ulf too back to your base. In the mean time prepare for rain (husbandry, shaduf, plow, farms) and make a few rax units. 9.30 heroic with Hathor, mig in base (unless he's rly passive), aq camels and add some ca. Locust, raid, gg at 15 min usually (works great up till ~1850)

Low hunt: strat is the same, you will be a little slower but the lack of food should hurt the norse guy more then you
different bo: 1st monu asap, 7 to food, 3 to gold (husbandry) classic around 4.40.

Make sure your towers are safe and your wadjet stays alive, that and ~5 rax units should hold him off easy till you're Heroic (his attack will be slow because of your priest rush)

vs ta: try to use wadjets (keep them alive, easy vs non-forseti)
thisisntworking
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 05:14 PM EDT (US)     7 / 29       
Axemen are better than spearmen against TA's, they have the attack bonus against infantry, but TA's still have the advantage because of their range. Wadjets are the best TA counter until heroic when you can get CA's, which own TA's.

[This message has been edited by thisisntworking (edited 06-21-2009 @ 05:16 PM).]

buppy
Mortal
(id: pubby8)
posted 21 June 2009 05:31 PM EDT (US)     8 / 29       
Anouther question: When should I build monuments?
tools956
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 05:37 PM EDT (US)     9 / 29       
@pubby8

For Throwing Axemmen, use Axemen for the following reasons:

1) all norse units do hack damage (with a few exceptions [e.g troll is only classic unit that does pierce and a few others in later ages]). Slings do pierce, but their Damage is so low and their hack armour is so low that they are not worth it VS. Norse. So use axemen (set is the special one because of better slings [more hack armour])

2) they cost FOOD and GOLD; just like spears! so there is no point of changing your Build order to have more wood because you won't need it as much (but keep a regual amount on wood, but you won't need excessive for slings)

3) slingers have 5 less hp compared to axemen/spears

4) Slings are also the slowest unit (out of the 3)

5) They also take the longest to train (out of the 3)

6) Slinger's voice gets really anoying after a while (when you click them to move)

http://aom.heavengames.com/gameinfo/tables/units/egyptian

~~Tools956~~





Edit for the next question:

@pubby8

you build you first one late first age (BEFORE classic) or early classical (depends on strat and map)

Just remeber, if you want Ming units, build one earlier because the favour cost is so high

~~Tools956~~

[This message has been edited by tools956 (edited 06-21-2009 @ 05:42 PM).]

OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 05:41 PM EDT (US)     10 / 29       
Slings are still bette vs ta because of bonus damage and ability to retreat IMO.

Kan_Jmann
tools956
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 05:43 PM EDT (US)     11 / 29       
^ look!
OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 05:45 PM EDT (US)     12 / 29       
What?

Kan_Jmann
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 21 June 2009 06:01 PM EDT (US)     13 / 29       
I also build houses around towers, but their army usually takes them out no problem,
Something is wrong here. If he chooses to fight under tower fire, he should be taking heavy losses for little gain.

Use your wadjet or sphinx to attack raiders, and if he's got hersir, run away and have pharaoh and towers focus fire the hersir so you can keep your myth in action. If he only has a few guys, don't be afraid to bring a couple vills into the fight too. If he's under your towers, all you have to do is get him to hold still.

You should be grateful if he's willing to lose units to your towers, because that means he'll have a harder time stopping you from building your migdol, a minute later.
buppy
Mortal
(id: pubby8)
posted 21 June 2009 06:35 PM EDT (US)     14 / 29       
One of my biggest issues is that I am unable to hunt -- for his raiders will slaughter my villies. Most often my army at the time will consist of 5 spearmen, who will be unable to reach the raiders in time, and when they get there the raiders will simple run around my base and attack my wood gatherers.

If I go with farms+rain and aim for a faster heroic than him, I often find myself being limited to my base. By the time I want to build a midgol, he will have built bases around all the gold mines. I do not know what to do.

Also, I always feel like I'm playing defensively against norse. I can hold them off for the majority of the game, but the lack of gold runs me into the ground.

[This message has been edited by pubby8 (edited 06-21-2009 @ 06:39 PM).]

iamdork
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 06:59 PM EDT (US)     15 / 29       
OPswim,
I am sorry, if being heavy raided/rushed by RC crenalated towers make since for only 150f/w, at the very least it keeps him from constantly running through your base, him having good scouting and keeping you on constant alert. If you do FH and are skipping classical fighting I could see waiting to get it due to cost, but that is not the case here. I have never been rushed as eggy with TA, so slings are pointless (at least in the very beginning unless they are the only thing you can afford and are desperate).
NorseBash
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 09:22 PM EDT (US)     16 / 29       
Listen to Eddy_Current. If hes jijgeeft??? then he has done that strat to me before along with his roc + pets laming seems to work well (although very annoying) and very surprising.
OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 21 June 2009 10:28 PM EDT (US)     17 / 29       
Dork, you gotta go FH and crennelations slows your adv. If your gold tower and vills are protected you have nothing to worry about as your foodies will be gathering from farms/herdables which are protected by tc. Listen to jijgeeft (Eddy). He's super pro anyway. That priest and pharaoh raid is important as well because it puts the pressure on him to pull his offense back.

Kan_Jmann
iamdork
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 06:26 AM EDT (US)     18 / 29       
OPswim,
Did you read what I wrote? I said that if you are doing FH then you would wait to get it. The questions posted here is if a norse rush is keeping you from FH. Which happens once in a while as RA since you don't have a/e.
OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 09:12 AM EDT (US)     19 / 29       
That's what I'm saying though. You shouldn't be slowed if you do what Eddy said. And what you said contradicted yourself. You'd have to be in heroic already to have a/e.

Kan_Jmann
iamdork
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 09:44 AM EDT (US)     20 / 29       
OPswim,
1. How did I contradict myself?
2. Although I agree with the priest harrasment strategy, it takes good micro skills which not everyone has. Which is why we are discussing minimal classical fighting to get to Heroic and still be able to build Mig.
OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 10:01 AM EDT (US)     21 / 29       
I already said. You mentioned a/e to save you if you were Isis, but in order to have that you'd have to be in heroic anyhow. Honestly, Ra has an easier time getting to heroic with rain too.

Kan_Jmann
iamdork
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 10:21 AM EDT (US)     22 / 29       
That is not a contradiction. Maybe the languages of Scotland and America are not the same.

Hitting the advance button with RA is easier yes, but you dont get the auto army... which is why I mentioned getting to Heroic with the ability to get a Mig up.

I guess my point is in the situation initially submitted my preferences would be:
1. FH with only free units houses around towers
2. Crenallations if it is heavy RC
3. RAX only if necessary, and normally axemen as they are the best general rax unit against norse. But as few as possible to defend while getting to Heroic.

The reasons I would get crenallations first is that:
1. Againts thor generally RC are your biggest threat
2. Food is generally easier to come by than gold (crenallations is f/w -vs- to build rax is gold, then units are f/g)
OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 10:26 AM EDT (US)     23 / 29       
Okay well I'm tired an getting on my flight back to Pennsylvania so I'll let someone else put their opinion. I do like the direction you're going now though.

Kan_Jmann
iamdork
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 11:34 AM EDT (US)     24 / 29       
No offense was intended.

I don't think we are differing on the answer, only on what the question is. But have fun in PA.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 22 June 2009 11:34 AM EDT (US)     25 / 29       
Or you can just cf, cf pwns if you know what you are doing

btw, don't get crennelations usually, it will bite you.

IMO, just listen to jijgeeft, he's a steady 1850 Ra and I love his playstyle. He has played near perfect in a few of his recs that I've watched.

Edit: He lives in PA lol

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 06-22-2009 @ 11:35 AM).]

OPSwimKidd
Mortal
posted 22 June 2009 02:29 PM EDT (US)     26 / 29       
Yes I do. And this isn't my first account on here either. I'm not the 'smurf' some people have called me. I was visiting family in Scotland. Will be home around 8 my time so if people wanna play I might be able too. This is pretty cool my flight has wifi 11.

Kan_Jmann
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 22 June 2009 06:00 PM EDT (US)     27 / 29       
Concerning crenellations: you usually won't need them right away (especially if you mess up their hunt like Eddy Current said)

Here's what a clannie of mine (who's gotten 18+ numerous times as Ra) says
Now i can get 7.50 with no cren or sphinx off berries and goats. If you add in sphinx and cren on a map with a bit more food, maybe good starting hunt, 8.10 with cren and sphinx is a good advance.
which he'd do (if he deems it necessary) vs highly skilled thor/odin/possy players who will have a boatload of cavalry in his town at 8 min.
caveat: Viper is a Vanilla player.
Dudis
Mortal
posted 23 June 2009 01:52 AM EDT (US)     28 / 29       
Viper is a pretty cool guy. Hes good at bloodsport

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
"Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
HailToTheViper
Mortal
posted 30 July 2009 11:24 AM EDT (US)     29 / 29       
oboe, you know thats only becuase i am a dirty roc lamer

But seriously, a thor player likes to go raiders. Sometimes its the only thing thats possible, easier to micro than ulf also a bit stronger. But, once you take into account crenelations, cav just get pawned.

One solution is going heroic relatively fast. Bragi ulf with a thor armoury are quite scary, especially with flaming weps

[This message has been edited by HailToTheViper (edited 07-30-2009 @ 11:26 AM).]

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