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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Zeus vs Isis discussion, Lorenzo thinks Zeus > Isis?
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Topic Subject:Zeus vs Isis discussion, Lorenzo thinks Zeus > Isis?
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Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 05 July 2009 11:10 PM EDT (US)         
The following does not exactly support my argument that Eggy cf is very good but anyways, for the sake of activity around here and some intelligent discusion (this being key so don't post if you're just trolling or have no idea what you're talking about) I'll give this a go:

On another forum (the mG clan forums don't know if I'm allowed to post the link here...) Lorenzo was discussing Zeus vs Isis and I think he made some valid points...and I'd like to see what you guys have to say on the matter. I'll quote the post here (I don't think this is posting anything in name of a banned forumer seeing as this is open for all to see on another site):
I played vs Magyar today and got raped 4x by same strat, Athena fb (sure I win 1 game but that's because it's Midgard and he can't push me off hunt, only gold11). Tbh that's not very different from Isis FH...




(Before I start ranting, I would like to say that I have not tried sub 5:00 priestrushes so I do not know if this works. Perhaps a fast priest rush would prevent him from fb'ing and screws his food income or resource income in general. On Savannah I did do something like a 5:00 but he advanced around that time as well and jason stopped it (and would stop 90% of all priestrushes anyway), otherwise Bolt on Pharaoh would have stopped it 100% and Odysseus would have too. I actually opted for a sub 5:00 priestrush on savannah, but was unable to advance fast enough with a monu/pickaxe/flood of the nile in archaic and I don't think I can win if I don't get those in Archaic. Anyway, conclusion: I did not try a sub 5:00 priestrush so I am not certain if this would work, but I don't think it would)




1a) First the maps, which are almost certainly in Zeus' favor... If both hunt is in the middle (which, technically, is fair) you won't be able to hunt it after Archaic but the Zeus will, and he will get your food on top of this.

1b) Then there is the starting goldmine issue. If your mine is very forward and the Zeus' mine is very forward (once again, technically fair) the Zeus doesn't really face any problems whereas you do... This is why you will be at a disadvantage resource-wise.

1c) Then, there is the problem of not having hunt in LOS and finding your hunt at, say, 1:00 - 1:30. You gather from your chickens or berries, spot the hunt and move towards it. For the sake of the argument the Zeus player faces the exact same scenario (once again, making it 'fair') and moves to the hunting at the same time. The Zeus will still advance around 5:00 and push you off. Now you have 90 seconds less hunting time because you weren't hunting from the start, while the Zeus faces no problems with this because he can continue hunting...

1d) As for the starting towers, if you don't have a good tower covering your first gold (or just bad tower placement in general, like too far from the TC or towers that are too far back/protect useless areas) you are bothered, if the Zeus has bad tower placement he is not bothered. However, to be fair: the Zeus will be attacking you thus inevitably fighting in building fire at times, so I guess this helps even it out.

2a) You can't defend your starting hunt effectively, so you will always be forced to leave your hunting. I think we can all agree on this, Zeus has bolt, Jason and a free myth unit to push you off hunt and you will have a Pharaoh, free MU and some Priests (assuming you advance at the same time as him, which is usually not the case).

2b) You can't fight his army effectively with Classical units because of the Toxotes. Lets say he makes Hippikons + Toxotes + 2 heroes, it's impossible to beat this combination with Classical units (including Pharaoh). When you group units, they automatically form a formation with the archers at the back. So when his army is moving forward, his melee units minus Odysseus (Hippikons, Hoplites, free Minotaur) will be at the front and his Toxotes will be at the back. That's no problem because he wants the Toxotes to attack the front units. You, however, facing the same scenario with the ranged units at the back and the melee units at the front, will want your ranged units (slingers) to attack his ranged units. IIRC Slingers and Toxotes are both 16 range (not that it matters for the following argument though). Assuming a battle commences, there will be 32-33 range between your Slingers and his Toxotes in the worst case scenario, making it pretty impossible for your Slingers to hit his Tox as they would actually have to:

1) move past the melee units of your opponent, which will have to be from the side because the Slingers can’t walk through the melee units battling at the front
2) be micro’ed manually on the Tox, as they attack the closest units which will still be the hops

Not to forget, the time your Slingers are moving they are not attacking, whereas the opponent’s Tox are attacking (off-topic: I see this mistake made in lots of Norse vs Atty games too where in a 115/115 battle the Norse runs around with 15 RC to get to the Turmae, not realizing that’s basically 15 idle RC while the Turmae are attacking… then wondering why they lose the battle 11). This makes it very hard for you to win the battle. To make it even worse, I did a test in the editor: 15 Slingers and 15 Axemen vs 15 Hoplites and 15 Toxotes. I put every Axeman right in front of every Hoplite, so that each Axeman will fight 1 Hoplite (not realistic, I know, but bare with me). Behind those 15 Axemen were 15 Slingers, and behind the 15 Hoplites were 15 Toxotes. At the start I paused the game and ordered every Slinger to attack the Tox behind the Hoplite, so each 1 Slinger was firing at 1 Tox. Also, I will stop capitalizing the letters of the units now because it gets annoying. This is the best possible scenario you can possibly imagine for hop/tox vs axe/slingers, you have to agree with that, yet hop/tox still won the battle. Now add a 5million hp odysseus and a 2k hp Jason to this (and a pharaoh on the eggy’s side and some more units, you can even have like +10 pop or even +15 pop over the Zeus with your pharaoh and you’ll still lose) and you die. Don’t forget restoration, btw, which will automatically win one battle. Even if you went Anubis, which doesn’t seem very smart to begin with, restoration will still win the battle when plague of serpents is cast.

Now if he makes hipps + tox it’s even worse because spears don’t get enough bonus damage vs cav without horus techs (10% bonus I believe), if he makes hipps + tox + hoplites, well… I don’t know what unit combo is best vs. this, just seems hopeless for the eggy11. If you have bad first gold (like really forward and you don’t have/can’t defend your ‘gold’ tower well) you basically lose the game right there.

2c) As the game continues and you’re struggling to survive, you’ll notice that his hoplite:toxotes ratio will go from 50+:50- to 50-:50+. This makes sense, as:

1) Toxotes are easier to produce as they cost wood
2) You will be killing off his hops faster as they are melee and in front whereas tox are in the back and ranged
3) He will usually be using AQ
4) Hunt will run out, slowing his food income thus his hop production (optional/debatable)

You ‘suffer’ the same faith. On paper this gives you the advantage, but in practice this is actually/usually worse than a 50:50 hop:tox and axe:slings army. Yes, 20 slings + pharaoh (ye, being slightly naïve here with the + pharaoh) 20 tox, but 20 tox with 3-5 units in front (worst case scenario would be 2 heroes) will beat 20 slings + pharaoh + whatever unit you would like to add as the slings don’t mow down the units in front of the tox but the tox will mow everything down in front of your slings. I actually tested 20 tox vs a sphinx and 20 slings vs a medium hippikon and the results are really really really depressing 11 (I won’t spoil the surprise, go test it. Slight note: you might also want to test it with decreased numbers, as the true broken imbalanced retardedness becomes much more clear with smaller numbers, e.g. there is not much diff in time between 100 tox vs son of Osiris and 100 slings vs a hippikon) now imagine oddyseus in front.

3a) So, logically, the best thing to do is FH, which might not be easy on some maps to begin with, especially combined with pressure but to be really honest I’m able to get heroic just fine on 90% of the maps so lets ignore that, it’s probably also a bit harder to fb with Athena on some maps. The next problem: you can’t kill or put a dent in his army with A+E because he’ll just run through a gate and by the time you’ve destroyed the walls his army is gone, only to return after A+E with 115/115 and (possibly) resto. Actually, in the Savannah game I anticipated his use of a gate pretty well and have minions on both side of the gate and I really kill a lot of units, but I still lost pretty easily. Yes, perhaps making an outside Migdol at my 2nd gold during A+E would have been the better choice, but I didn’t know where he had walled (and that’s not due to lack of obelisks, if I had them he would have destroyed them anyway) and where his army was (contrary to popular belief I do not maphack 11) so I decided to make a migdol at home first and make CA.

3b) Now there are watermaps… I don’t think it’s very easy to defend vs. any Athena rush with even neutral gold, because you just can’t keep your gold tower up (really, check the Midgard game vs Magyar: I make 2 or 3 layers of walls with a house in between and he still bashes through while I’m constantly firing with my Pharaoh. I should have lost that game as well, btw, but an extremely poor use of resto and poor micro by Magyar (don’t know why you idiots suck off him so much for his “godly micro”, last time I checked making walls and putting hero on MU wasn’t micro-intensive11, check the game on Alfheim where it’s Zeus vs Poseidon and check Adhafang’s comment in the game then watch the game and go to the 12 min he described, tell me where you see micro plz, are you blind?. But I guess it’s just the normal thing to do these days, praise Magyar for his non-existent godly micro, flame me for my non-existent maphack and give Hellsravage expert staff for his non-existent skill. But I digress. A lot) made me win the game (I bet you had to read back to see what that ‘made me win the game’ was about because your brain lacked working memory. That is because you’re stupid, btw).

Action helped me a lot with a potential counter to this fb Athena walling which I will discuss later, but I have my doubts.

Going to bed, cheers.

P.S. - this is only about Zeus' Classical, haven't even talked about his Mythic, underworld passage, map control, 4v2 TCs scenarios that might occur (and will most of the time due to map control) etc.
Here are the games he is refering to:

Zeus vs Isis on Mediterranean

Zeus vs Isis on Midgard

Zeus vs Isis on Savannah

There is also a 4th game of the same match up on Oasis where 2 of Lorenzo's starting zebras spawn off the map, another huge disadvantage that nothing can be done about (I do not have this rec).

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 07-06-2009 @ 09:13 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Braza
Mortal
posted 16 July 2009 07:06 AM EDT (US)     31 / 37       
The savanah game seems to be impossible for lorenzo to win.

But I think he could have done better on medit. Maybe more walls and better tower protection. And he got housed really badly.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 16 July 2009 02:08 PM EDT (US)     32 / 37       
Watch the games
Just because you and me and everyone else on this forum cannot see how to beat this that does not mean that there is no way. The reason is that nobody here is worth 2000 points of rating, which is required to be able to beat a player of that skill in a competitive game. There are not many players of that sort left anyway, and those that are do not necessarily care about Lorenzo's problem and finding a solution to it.
There was simply not much he could do =\
...with his strategy. There are billions of possible approaches. This is like saying that just because you cannot see the solution of a mathematical problem you can deduct that there is none.
it would also be beneficial for you to read the resulting thread from Lorenzo's argument and see that many people try to come up with valid strats
The same happens here when someone asks a question, but most of those that propose a solution are 1600- rr, and so is the quality of their suggestions. That does not mean anything.
This is definitely not "posting in the name of a banned member" as the article Lorenzo wrote is open for all to see on another site.
You mean that if a banned user wants to post something here, then it is sufficient for him to post it elsewhere, and immediately everyone is allowed also to post it here for him? I disagree. The fact that there are forums out there where Lorenzo is not banned and can write his stuff does not mean that he may post here - or anyone for him.

Chances are Lorenzo also wanted to post this here, but could not due to his ban. Instead you did, so you posted on his behalf.
Pretty funny reply, try reading next time.
Spare me with your zero-content-flames.
He is not whining in any sense of the word
He says that he "was unable to advance fast enough with a monu/pickaxe/flood of the nile in archaic and I don't think I can win if I don't get those in Archaic."

In other words, he lists a precondition required for a possibility for him to win, and adds that this precondition cannot be met. Hence he implies that he cannot possibly win (with the only constraint that he has not tried that priest rush).

I do admit that he appears to be asking for input though. I grant him that.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Sam_Ham
Mortal
posted 16 July 2009 03:03 PM EDT (US)     33 / 37       
So you reply in a thread flaming someone and then huffily/pompously ask not to be flamed yourself. You have one strange mental attitude.

I don't think the quote you gave was really what anyone would call whining, either. By the lack of text and even an admission in your post I assume this is dapspeak for 'oh yes I was a bit harsh sorry', apology accepted.


Sometimes you need to scare the lambs,
tell tales of evil bad wolves.
Because if there is nothing to fear,
they might think for themselves.
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 16 July 2009 09:53 PM EDT (US)     34 / 37       
Sam_Ham and Dap you guys are so cute xD <3

And I think lorenzo needs to think outside of the box... everyone expects an Isis fh these days, so I think predicting it and than exposing it's flaws (like magyar did quite expertly) is perfectly fine. Therefore @ skizm's remark, it can be argued that lorenzo's will to fh in the first place was his major flaw, and why he deserved to lose.

He then argues that fh is the best option as classical fight would surely fail - this is argued however on mostly theory, which may not turn out to be true in real games. He argues that tox are kind of like the Greek player's joker, but I guess if you managed to get safe gold with some towers around it +/- a forward tc, than his mostly tox army shouldn't worry you too much, even if his mostly tox army is superior to yours (tox raiding? xD). To argue theory vs theory however gets very messy and from experience we all know it never works out so I'll just end by saying that a real game imo is far superior to theory.

As a last word, I do agree with regards to the savannah game that lorenzo's options seemed limited.

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 16 July 2009 10:18 PM EDT (US)     35 / 37       
You mean that if a banned user wants to post something here, then it is sufficient for him to post it elsewhere, and immediately everyone is allowed also to post it here for him? I disagree. The fact that there are forums out there where Lorenzo is not banned and can write his stuff does not mean that he may post here - or anyone for him.

Chances are Lorenzo also wanted to post this here, but could not due to his ban. Instead you did, so you posted on his behalf.
It's not like Lorenzo specifically asked me to post this lol, I'm just tired of the BS topics we've been having around here lately (e.g. how do I do a centaur strangle?) and was hoping for some intelligent discussion but it appears my hopes were just what they were: hopes.

And please, posting on the behalf of a banned member? If this was anybody Lorenzo you would not care in the least. Let's say I quoted something from HellsRavage who is also banned and put it here. He is also pretty well known in the community but you wouldn't even think to say that I was posting it in the name of a banned forumer.

@Sam_Ham: Check your PMs on AgeSanc.

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 07-17-2009 @ 06:39 AM).]

Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 17 July 2009 05:13 AM EDT (US)     36 / 37       
Death.

Without even having watched the actual game, I have to say that when a thread contains two points which I know that you either;

A) Despise (Lorenzo)

B) Find utterly overpowered (Isis)


It's pretty easy for me to claim that you're biased on the matter.

Just saying.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

Gandalf - JRR Tolkein. The Fellowship of the Ring
Braza
Mortal
posted 17 July 2009 06:27 AM EDT (US)     37 / 37       
Yes, Nirwanda is right.

But DaP has his points:

Quoted from DeathAndPain:

...with his strategy. There are billions of possible approaches. This is like saying that just because you cannot see the solution of a mathematical problem you can deduct that there is none.
Though it seems zeus has many advantages over isis played in this way(on these maps). But that will just be a compliment to Magyar for exploiting this. >>> For finding a way to do so.



Reply to tower-counter idea:

OMG tower vs zeus hoplite :-)



*Sorry for the incorrect English


EDIT: Nice post Major ! Intressting topic

[This message has been edited by Braza (edited 07-17-2009 @ 06:30 AM).]

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