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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Ensemble: no-cap solution for Favor & miracles
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Topic Subject:Ensemble: no-cap solution for Favor & miracles
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thewesson
Mortal
posted 28 March 2002 06:25 PM EDT (US)         

If you don't like people accumulating masses of favor and then releasing it all, I can understand that.

So that's why you're proposing a cap on favor beyond which it no longer accumulates.

But this is artificial and limits gameplay.

You can discourage excess favor accumulation without a cap.

Just have favor accumulate at a rate of:
base_rate * 50/(50+favor)
generally:
base_rate * N/(N+favor)

With N=50, at a favor of 50, it accumulates 1/2 as fast; at favor 100, it accumulates 1/3 as fast; at favor 200, it accumulates 1/5 as fast. Getting from 100 to 200 takes longer than accumulating 300 favor 100 at a time!

N/(N+X) is in general a very nice solution for declining effects (diminishing returns) & preventing aberrant extremes (without a cap). (Attack/defense worked this way in D2 BTW - one of the few elegant parts of that game.)

Anyhow, with this solution, people will be *discouraged* from accumulating gobs of favor but will still be *allowed* to accumulate gobs of favor if they are willing to live with an increasingly poor accumulation rate for quite a while.

If you like, favor_rate could be base_rate * M/(M+favor_used) * N/(N+current_favor); M > N; thus, your ability to accumulate favor would also diminish as you used favor and the game could never be ruled by the gods. But it would still be better (for your accumulation rate) to spend favor than to stockpile it.

With that formula, you can use god powers more than once or twice; just the intervals at which you could use god powers would grow larger and larger. This would take care of excess miracles very naturally without capping big miracles at one per age or whatever.

If M were 100 someone who had already done 2 'big' miracles (100 favor each) would be getting favor at a rate of only 1/3 the rate of someone who had done no miracles.

No one can specialize in miracles, then, because the ability to produce them 'wears out' gradually. Thus, miracles can't dominate gameplay.

Certain unrepeatable events (like advancing an age (or discovering a god technology?)) could dump a fixed quantity of favor into your stockpile of course.

Anyhow, IMO the game should have as few arbitrary caps and limits as possible while still encouraging an interesting style of gameplay.

The fickle gods gradually tiring of your pleas after granting you favors seems like a very Mythological style of deity!

Please be assured that I take no credit for this mathematical idea; I only hope that you can use the concept to produce a better game.

You don't have to explain the math to the player either; just explain that the gods become accustomed to your prayers and weary of your pleas and over time you have to pray more for the same effect/try harder to please them.

Matt

AuthorReplies:
Jus
Mortal
posted 29 March 2002 11:20 PM EDT (US)     31 / 39       
Sandy, with that system you are unlikely to see a bunch only in the last age as you would surely prefer favour to be collected at an optimum rate meaning you would try to prevent the favour from reaching a limit where the gather rate decreases. In fact this can also be tactical in the sense that the more valuable myth units would be even harder to get(assuming they cost a lot and favour rate have to be reduced to reach that amount) and a person has to juggle between saving favour fot the most powerful ones or instead have a few of the lower end myth units.
Alexandergreat3
Mortal
posted 30 March 2002 00:02 AM EDT (US)     32 / 39       
From the looks of things, ES seem to be firm about the Cap system, so we all just have to wait for the Beta (if there will be a public one) to see how this will be like. ^_^
Kaziglu Bey
Mortal
posted 31 March 2002 02:45 AM EDT (US)     33 / 39       
When a simpler solution makes something work along the directions you want it to, the simpler solution is usually the one to choose when developing a lot of other parts simultaneously.
Jus
Mortal
posted 31 March 2002 04:51 AM EDT (US)     34 / 39       
But the idea suggested above is also quite simple really. In fact i think this was pirated from WAR3's upkeep system.

[This message has been edited by Jus (edited 03-31-2002 @ 04:52 AM).]

thewesson
Mortal
posted 01 April 2002 04:13 PM EDT (US)     35 / 39       
ES-Sandyman says:
>Having a cap of 100 also leads to interesting results in the game's strategy of which we strongly approve.
>For instance, you are forced to use favor throughout the game, not just save it all up until the last age and then send forth a gigantic army of myth units. This means that you see a few myth units in every age which we like a lot better.

A food/wood/gold cap would be annoying and pointless.

There's no resource cap in AoK and apparently AoK gameplay can survive this.

Sure, in AoK, sometimes a rookie will turtle and produce a huge imperial army. So what? Good for them. They tend to lose anyhow to those who attack from feudal onwards. Once in a while, an inter will get a nasty shock from an ignored rook, perhaps! That's good too.

With diminishing-returns based on accumulation, 'excessive' favor accumulation will be a complete non-issue.

Don't trust your design and your players to work without a cap? O well then ...

I'm sure AoM can survive minor mistakes like the favor cap. I will certainly buy it and enjoy it - just enjoy it a little less than I would without the cap.

When you permit variations in play, you've made a better game ...

Yrs
Matt thewesson

c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 01 April 2002 08:03 PM EDT (US)     36 / 39       
caps r dumb...thats that

TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 03 April 2002 03:47 AM EDT (US)     37 / 39       

Quote:

Don't trust your design and your players to work without a cap? O well then ...

Heh, ES can like players to do whatever they want to do. Getting them to DO it is another thing. It's as Swinger said over at PAoE:

Quote:

We all figured out from the AOK and AOK:TC experience that all of the players out there just fell in love with playing a thousand arabia games in a row and seeing feudal warfare in all of them. All of those skirmishers and archers, those being the only really useful units in the game, really captivated the hearts of all those players out there and we've definitely taken notice. So much in fact that we've tried our hardest to eclipse that and we think everyone will be extremely pleased! I can't tell you everything... but just imagine every game and it starts out the same way, this is even in the first age, and you get to use the same unit and its use will determine the outcome of most of the game, making all of those other units and powers meaningless! Monotonous gameplay, baby, that's where it's at!

It might have been more fun to play in castle and imp, but the experts aren't interested in fun. Losing sight of the whole point of the game, if you ask me. But anyway...


TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
Socrates
Mortal
posted 03 April 2002 04:19 AM EDT (US)     38 / 39       

Quote:

caps r dumb...thats that

Why?

c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 03 April 2002 09:53 AM EDT (US)     39 / 39       
INFINITY FAVOR FOR ALL

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