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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Fortresses: Juggernauts of AOM?
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Topic Subject:Fortresses: Juggernauts of AOM?
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 10 May 2002 08:17 PM EDT (US)         
One of the topics that has not been analyzed as throughly is the fortress... We have seen the fortress in many, many screenshots, so I thought it would be good to figure out what everyone thinks the role of the "fortress" will be... Yes, I will be comparing it to the castle in AOK, so if I talk from an AOK perspective, tell me to shut up ...

____________________________________________________________ _________

The AOK castle

In the Age of Kings and its x-pac, the castle was one of the most frightening things in the game... Sometimes this fear was justified, because castles were indeed powerful, but honestly, many times I would have the opportunity to raze the enemy base, but would delay so I could treb the castle first...

- Had tremendous defensive purposes. Could easily defeat any feudal and most castle units
- Even better offensive purposes. If a castle could be constructed near the enemy in a RM, the match was pretty much over (if you were rushing). In the DM castles are always essential

- The AOK castle enabled you to go to the next age!

- The AOK castle was a valuable asset in score-based matches!

- The AOK castle had insane hit points, attack, and quite a fine range {/B]

-[B] Once again, unique units and techs were researched here

- Spies/treason researched here

- Siege weapons (petards and TREBS) constructed here

-Eliminated role of towers, as well as greatly decreased the role of standard feudal archers and men-at-arms

The AOM fortress

This is what the post is really about… I want to know what everyone thinks the role of the fortress will be, in what ways will it differ from the castle, and what would you change about the castle…

I think the AOM fortress will…

–Share the extensive range and attack of the castle… As much as the castle was extremely powerful in the RM, I feel that in the deathmatch it must be as powerful if not more powerful to post any kind of threat to large armies…

–Will be a great threat offensively and defensively, as it was in AOK. Note that in the UI screenshot, we see one player building what looks like a fortress write near the enemy… offensive…

Garrisoning will obviously be a part of fortresses

Now questions and suggestions…

-Will MUs or siege weapons be constructed here… (Note many of the siege weapons in AOM are MUs so it will be interesting to see. Will ES leave the siege tower and catapults for the siege workshops where they belong, or are some siege weapons so powerful it is necessary sort of add to the cost by making one build a fortress to get them

What on earth will the fortress cost? If it’s a deathmatch and it costs wood and gold, it would have to be a lot of wood and gold or else fortresses will be flung up everywhere…

-Could fortresses be made weaker, or perhaps towers stronger, so that towers are actually a part of the game. The only games towers were built were when you were tower rushing in a RM in AOK… I hardly ever saw a fully upgraded keep in an AOK game…

- Will the fortress be needed to advance to the next age in AOM?

- What age will the fortress be available in?

- Murder holes. Will there be a counterpart to this crucial AOK tech?

These are my thoughts on the fortress. What do you think its role will be, and what would you like the fortress to be like. *cough* ES can add any insight they might know about the fortress..

-Thanks!

-Vladimir87

AuthorReplies:
The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 10 May 2002 08:22 PM EDT (US)     1 / 30       
ok, vladimir...

-NOTHING IS MADE / RESEARCHED IN THE FORTRESS. It's like a supertower; you garrison, shoot, heal. that's it.

-we dont'know how strong towers are, but yes, towers are weaker. see Cossacks or EE towers, they are so much stronger (but no castle equivalent.)

-fortresses' garrison/shooting power is probably similar to the castle, and its cost will be very large in wood/gold quantity (as both are more plentiful than AoK stone)

-fortresses are probably 2nd / 3rd age buildings, as its functions are very smiliar xcept no techs/units. Thus it might be the key to the age advancement.

-dunno about murder holes.

Stone_Giant
Mortal
posted 10 May 2002 08:29 PM EDT (US)     2 / 30       

Quoted from Greek buildings section:

Fortresses will allow the player to garrison units in order to fire arrows at enemy attackers. Greek Fortresses also produce heroes; each major god has a unique set of heroes, one for each age.

Quoted from Egyptian building section:

Fortresses will allow the player to garrison units in order to fire arrows at enemy attackers, but unlike their counterparts in Age of Kings, will not produce units.

Quoted from Norse building section:

Cheaper than the Egyptian and Greek fortress, the Norse Hill Fort is also a lot weaker, but shares the same ability to deliver a barrage of arrows at attackers, and allow friendly units to seek refuge inside.

Pretty confusing eh?

I think castles would still be useful in AOK if they didn't produce any units. Some important techs are housed there, and they are rather nasty when you plunk them down in an enemy town.

Fortresses would be rather nice to help protect your Temples, or used to protect your troops as they level enemy temples.

They'll be useful though, I can guarntee that.

Stone_Giant

[This message has been edited by Stone_Giant (edited 05-10-2002 @ 08:35 PM).]

c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 10 May 2002 09:03 PM EDT (US)     3 / 30       
ahhhh too much to read

Stone Minotaur
Mortal
posted 10 May 2002 09:44 PM EDT (US)     4 / 30       
Did we all forget about Thunders' war story? I am to lazy to quote directly, but I believe he said that at least the Norse Hill fort is quite vulnerable when not guarded by units.....

"In the centre was Phobos (Fear) worked in adamant, unspeakable, staring backwards with eyes that glowed with fire. His mouth was full of teeth in a white row, fearful and daunting, and upon his grim brow hovered frightful Eris (Strife) who arrays the throng of men ...
The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 10 May 2002 11:28 PM EDT (US)     5 / 30       
GARRRR! NO TECH UPGRADES OR UNIT MAKING FROM THE AoM FORTRESS OR ANY VARIATION OF IT! (Hill fort)

Fortresses are STRONG, EXPENSIVE buildings, to GARRISON units and to FIRE arrows at enemies. they are basically bigger, better towers. Though due to general building minus to norse their hill fort will be weaker, we can rely on Greek, and especially Egyptian, fortresses to be as strong as AoK castles.

Fortresses are NOT as useful in AoM because the middle ages was all about siege, and knight charges, (hence the strong cavarly and siege weapons and buildings), but the ancient ages was all about.. er... battle. Thus you have settlements and lots of FIELD battles, less trebs firing at your beefy castle.

TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 01:42 AM EDT (US)     6 / 30       

Quote:

GARRRR! NO TECH UPGRADES OR UNIT MAKING FROM THE AoM FORTRESS OR ANY VARIATION OF IT! (Hill fort)

Fortresses produce Greek heroes.


TheShædøwDåwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 11 May 2002 01:43 AM EDT (US)     7 / 30       
i wish i lived in a fortress...id feel special then

[This message has been edited by Hairy Scary Man (edited 05-11-2002 @ 09:53 AM).]

The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 02:15 AM EDT (US)     8 / 30       

Quote from TSD:
Fortresses produce Greek heroes.

oh.........

damn.

still, the fortress is much worse than the AoK castle in that it can only produce Greek heroes, and it might be more expensive/weaker.

vladimir87
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 09:56 AM EDT (US)     9 / 30       

Quoted from Hairy Scary Man:

Ahhh too much to read

Oh man you should have seen it before. I had like 3 pages on the AOK castle analyzing the different aspects of its offensive usage. Then SG told me to cut it all out


One thing I would likeis for the castle to be able to garrison units, to shoot many arrows, and maybe it oculd even build units, if it did not eliminate the use of towers...

I think if towers were much cheaper, and were stronger, they would still be used... However the castle, even for its cost, was a much better deal than the AOK towers...

Good posts everyone...

-Vladimir87

The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 06:56 PM EDT (US)     10 / 30       
whoever you mean by SG, I thank him

vladimir, I think you need yet ANOTHER confirmation:

FORTRESSES
-Big
-Expensive
-Garrisons units
-Fires arrows
-Produces Greek Heroes
-You can NOT research any techs or produce any other units


I like your idea about towers, it might trigger off incessant tower building to prevent rushes. You get to a settlement, build a TC and about 15 towers.

Stone_Giant
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 08:03 PM EDT (US)     11 / 30       

Quote:

whoever you mean by SG

*waves*

Stone_Giant

Ian Gilbert
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 08:27 PM EDT (US)     12 / 30       
I think that fortresses will be made weaker then castles. In Aok if u were smart you could destroy an enemy base with a few dozen villagers and some stone if u built a castle inside the enemy town. I think because of this that fortresses will cost more and will be weaker (except for HP i think they will be stronger) And as for hairy scary man if u ever find a fortress invite me over and we can defend it from the vikings and we will BOTH feel special.

Quoted from TSD in reference to the suggestion of infinite farms: "It's the econ stupid! Taking out the attention and skill element in building an econ is demolishing half the game!"
Winner of the "Craziest Forumer Award" Jan. 2003
"It's time for the human race to enter the solar system!" - Dan Quayle, former U.S. Vice President on the concept of a manned mission to Mars
Discoverer of the "Invisible Leviathon" Bug
The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 09:00 PM EDT (US)     13 / 30       
anyway the game is less about siege than it is field battles now, so towers/fortreses/siege weapons will be weaker.

Hairy Scary Man is already special. He is a mindless blubber. (ask him)

Oh, hi SG. *waves*

vladimir87
Mortal
posted 11 May 2002 09:13 PM EDT (US)     14 / 30       

Quote:

vladimir, I think you need yet ANOTHER confirmation:

Yes you have shown that to me many times. I'm not asking what they will be like... I'm asking what you think they should be like...

Quote:

General Discussions and Suggestions

Yep. So I appreciate you posts on the fortress, and thanks for answering one of the questions I had, but I am trying to figure out other people's perspective...

Just to state another side of things... if the AOK fortress was not as powerful as the AOK castle, wouldn't rushing be a bit more difficult. I mean, the castle: it was the bulk of your DM rush, and was pretty much omnipresent in the RM game as well. It offered your units, if beaten back... a place to run to and heal...

If fortresses, or the hill fort (supposed to be pretty weak), did not offer a massive attack, whet then is their role? Even the AOK castle could not stop legions of troops in a late game (nor were they supposed to of course). Now think about a 9 headed hydrsa, or some mountain giants punishing it. If it is weaker than in AOK, these fortifications will not be able to defend against massive hp/attack myth units... I will leave it up to ES to balance these things :P

However I still think towers should be a "threat". They shouldn't be an offensive powerhouse, just a defensive threat. Because really... towers were created in most cases for just that...It isn't like when people attacked towns, they constructed towers while the battle raged...

But of course, as always, gameplay over realism ...

-Vladimir87

c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 11 May 2002 11:42 PM EDT (US)     15 / 30       

Quoted from Ian Gilbert:

And as for hairy scary man if u ever find a fortress invite me over and we can defend it from the vikings and we will BOTH feel special.

if u bring me food and drinks and money then sure

Quoted from The_Avenger772:

Hairy Scary Man is already special. He is a mindless blubber. (ask him)

id have to disagree with ya The_Avenger772


Steel_Cat
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 00:19 AM EDT (US)     16 / 30       
I'm not so sure that towers and fortesses will be exempt from the battles taking place in the fields. From what I understand, the fortresses will be big things you put in your town and stick guys in, but the towers will be smaller things you can put on the tops of hills and draw your enemies to. By drawing enemy to a tower and garrosoning your dudes inside, you can take out some of the opposing force before engaging.
-[Fortresses will take too long to build in the enmy's town(plus there will be manytowns! SETTLEMENTS]-

"Its never the things that happen to us that upset us, its our view of them." -Epictetus
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[This message has been edited by Steel_Cat (edited 05-12-2002 @ 00:31 AM).]

The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 01:07 AM EDT (US)     17 / 30       
you can only build things in your settlement radius.

I agree with ya, vladimir, towers should be better than what they were in AoK.

vladimir87
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 08:51 AM EDT (US)     18 / 30       
I think that build time never stopped people from making castles near people's towns before... And many settlements means many castles

-Vladimir87

And a tower on a hill wouldnt really bother me... I would go knock it down with a few calvary... :-P

-Vladimir87

Ozymandias_2001
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 09:32 AM EDT (US)     19 / 30       
I would expect that the fortress would be alot more powerful than its AOC counterpart as no units are produced here (cept greek heroes) after all, the fortress wasnt a troopcenter, it was the last point of defense and should have much greater defensive abilities than offernsive...this seems to be reinforced by making them more powerful but not giving them a steady supply of soldiers, e.g it would be easier to siege them if you let your guard down

"Look on my works ye mighty, and despair" Inscription on the statue of Ozymandias
"Ireland is one country. Any other concepcion ignores the facts of history and geography" An Taoiseach Seán Lemass
"Tiocfaidh ár lá!!"
Ian Gilbert
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 01:46 PM EDT (US)     20 / 30       
Qouted From Hairy Scary Man:

if u bring me food and drinks and money then sure

U bring the food and drinks, I'll bring the swords, arrows, and gold.


Quoted from TSD in reference to the suggestion of infinite farms: "It's the econ stupid! Taking out the attention and skill element in building an econ is demolishing half the game!"
Winner of the "Craziest Forumer Award" Jan. 2003
"It's time for the human race to enter the solar system!" - Dan Quayle, former U.S. Vice President on the concept of a manned mission to Mars
Discoverer of the "Invisible Leviathon" Bug
Steel_Cat
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 01:56 PM EDT (US)     21 / 30       
vladimir87 quote:
"-build time never stopped people from making castles near people's towns before"
-This will be an issue now though. The pop cap in AoK was 200, in AoM will be MUCH less, like 50. With a pop that low, you cannot afford to have enough villagers to build castles that fast.

"Its never the things that happen to us that upset us, its our view of them." -Epictetus
Dual GeForce 256MB 6800 GT over SLI PCI Express x8...aaaaw yeah.
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Ian Gilbert
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 02:18 PM EDT (US)     22 / 30       
Qoute from Ozymandius_2001

...and should have much greater defensive abilities than offensive...

Do i Hear an Echo???

just joking


Quoted from TSD in reference to the suggestion of infinite farms: "It's the econ stupid! Taking out the attention and skill element in building an econ is demolishing half the game!"
Winner of the "Craziest Forumer Award" Jan. 2003
"It's time for the human race to enter the solar system!" - Dan Quayle, former U.S. Vice President on the concept of a manned mission to Mars
Discoverer of the "Invisible Leviathon" Bug
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 12 May 2002 06:27 PM EDT (US)     23 / 30       
Then again... typically, when I played AOK, and when i noticed what the people i played against were doing, they did not typically rush with tons of vills... By the time you have 60 villagers in a random map, you will be able to spare 2-3 I would imagine.

And the pop limit will be significantly higher than 50. ES_Deathshrimp I believe commented that a typical army can field about 50 calvary units... So saying, there are probably a dozen other military units scattered around the field, and let us not forget room for about 60 villagers... So the pop limit will easily be around 150, and thats without settlements... Thats my prediction.

Quote:

I would expect that the fortress would be alot more powerful than its AOC counterpart as no units are produced here (cept greek heroes) after all, the fortress wasnt a troopcenter, it was the last point of defense and should have much greater defensive abilities than offernsive...this seems to be reinforced by making them more powerful but not giving them a steady supply of soldiers, e.g it would be easier to siege them if you let your guard down

Oh I like this thought. Fortresses themselves will be strong, attackwise and rangewise and hpwise and armorwise etc. However, they are vulnerable to siege attack when you are not looking because they cannot create units... A few scarabs could take out an unsuspecting hill fort or fortress, or a siege tower guarded by some hippokons could pose a serious threat... Which leads us to the greater question of exactly what will siege be like in AOM?

-Typically smaller armies will play a major role... No more sending 30 trebs, or in this case, siege towers to take out the enemy... Thats if you want to grant them some protection...

-Siege weapons will probably take up serious population slots, so hence another reason why massed siege won't be common...

-Perhaps the most obvious integration in siege will be GPs of course

-Fortresses (or hill fort) do not cost stone. Probably they will cost insane amounts of wood/gold. however, if you are getting these resources in large porportions anyway, you could assemble a serious defensive network...

Thanks for your thoughts,

-Vladimir87

The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 13 May 2002 01:18 AM EDT (US)     24 / 30       
yes, but AoM wants less siege and more field battles, melee stuff. Anyway holding castles/fortresses was importnat in Middle Ages, not as much in ancient ages. About the only real sieging or fortress stuff was Battle of Kadesh, and siegeing Tyre, and not much more. Fortresses should be weaker anyway because there aren't supersiege units like trebs anymore, and construction wasn't very advanced back then.
Steel_Cat
Mortal
posted 13 May 2002 08:51 PM EDT (US)     25 / 30       
Is the pop limit really going to be that high? Maybe I subconsciously typed what the practical online population limit would be.

"Its never the things that happen to us that upset us, its our view of them." -Epictetus
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Dark Warrior
Guest
posted 13 May 2002 09:16 PM EDT (US)     26 / 30       
I think that fortresses will be harder to build all over the place like in AoK becuase ES probably didn't have that in mind when they made the game, it probably was someone's hairbrained idea that actually worked and caught on. So I think that this is one issue that realism will win the toss, think about it... when Grece was sieging troy for example did they take a ton of vilagers and start building their owm fortresses around the place? no, they spend many years running around getting shot before the trojan hourse.

And about the popultion thing, I predict it will be be over 200 because of mythological units and calvary taking up more than one population slot.

ES_DeathShrimp
Immortal
posted 17 May 2002 02:53 PM EDT (US)     27 / 30       
We wanted cavalry and castles to be important and powerful in AOK because those are two archetypes that everyone thinks of when they think of that time period.

Not so with AOM's mixed-up Egyptians-fighting-Vikings time period. Fortresses in AOM are not anything like AOK's Castles, though they are still quite useful.

Quote:

you can only build things in your settlement radius.

I have no idea where this rumor got started, but it's just not true. It would certainly be a way to keep buildings used defensively instead of offensively, but it also really changes the way the game plays and may limit your options too much.

The pop cap is not insanely high. (I mean, why have one at all if it isn't a real factor in the game?) It is high enough that you usually aren't limited by it, but low enough that there is usually a benefit in claiming additional Settlements.

In fact, the nifty effect is that you are never "stuck at pop cap". You always can bump it up by claiming Settlements. And if all the Settlements are claimed by your team, the game is over, either because you literally ended it with the Settlement VC, or because the enemy doesn't really have a prayer left anyway without the ability to train more Villagers or support the population for a large army.

vladimir87
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 04:30 PM EDT (US)     28 / 30       
Hmmmm, thanks for clearing that up Deathshrimp...

I see what you mean about the images people think of when they think "medieval" and that kind of stuff. Of course as you said, AOM, where Egyption anubites can dismantle Norse valkerie, it will be a bit different...

Quote:

Not so with AOM's mixed-up Egyptians-fighting-Vikings time period. Fortresses in AOM are not anything like AOK's Castles, though they are still quite useful.

Well as they do not produce units (except those Greek heroes), and as they are i quote^^, "not anything" like AOK castles, I suppose it is safe to say that castles may not have the range and attack we are familiar with...

I think then, if fortresses do not have *as* much an attack etc., it will make the game better. Here's why...

-No more unfun turtling games. Without huge "juggernaut" castles, the emphasis will be more on a standing army defending the base, unit to unit conflict. I'm in no way saying defenses do not have a role, but I think the focus may be more on units… IMO that is a good change… That was another flaw in AOK. How many games did you actually beat up the enemy army on the field, then bask in glory as your troops rush in and raze his base?
Hardly ever, at least for me.

It was all standoff at the enemy base. Build a forward castle. Set up trebs. Take down castle. Advance with another castle. Have scorpions and pikes ready to defend trebs… Take down his next castle.

I think that both this concept, and the settlement concept which will thin your army out to defend different key settlements, will make AOM a better game. Good decision ensemble…

Quote:

In fact, the nifty effect is that you are never "stuck at pop cap". You always can bump it up by claiming Settlements. And if all the Settlements are claimed by your team, the game is over, either because you literally ended it with the Settlement VC, or because the enemy doesn't really have a prayer left anyway without the ability to train more Villagers or support the population for a large army.


Ah, and that’s a good point. By the time you are getting annoyed because you can’t build many more units, your enemy is suffocating because he does not control hardly any settlements, and you have a larger force to take him out… Pop limit, I think as DS said, will not in itself restrict players…

-Vladimir87

deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 04:31 PM EDT (US)     29 / 30       
hmmm
if i ever hit my pop limit, i attacked someone......

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 18 May 2002 09:07 PM EDT (US)     30 / 30       
Hmmmm... well...

I quote Bruce Shelley himself lol

Quote:

+Bruce@ES> Big defensive buildings from which a lot of cool units and techs come from. Maybe not as big and defensive as castles in AoK.

Emphasis on techs AND units ... So it appears some of us are wrong. Units is plural, so there probably will be more than Greek heroes...

And they are not the "juggernauts of AOM" either, not as big and defensive...

*Runs off and cries about missing private chat with a chance to talk to swinger*
*regrets waiting 9 hours to be second in line and to be at the chat practically the whole time until swinger was there*
*mad that he did not get a T-shirt like SG*

WHY ME?!

-Vladimir87

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