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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » A newly discovered fact?
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Topic Subject:A newly discovered fact?
Vagelis
Mortal
posted 14 May 2002 06:43 AM EDT (US)         
I'm not sure about this, but it came to me while I was reading through the Houses thread.

It is known that in AOM you will not be able to build any town centers except above settlements. Now the TC is a rather important building in the game, right? It creates villagers, heroes, uh...villagers. Anyway, it is absolutely essential, early during the game and less important but quite afterwords.

Since you will not be able to recover it after it is destroyed how important is the overall effect it has to the game?

You still have the ability to build a new one in settlements (if you havent already), but it's different b/c the first TC is the heart of your base. All military & economical buildings are placed around it.
Ofcourse it doesnt matter from WHERE you collect rescources, but nevertheless, SM (settlements) are secondary TCs despite their importance in a game they cannot replace one. They will be far away and much more vurlnable to attacks. If the enemy manages and "steals" your SM or merely cuts off communication with it, the game for you is pretty much over.You will remain constant during the game, with a fixed ammount of villagers & pop limit, and a steady amount of incoming rescources, unable to respond, while the enemy is increasing in power.
The most important after effect is that you cannot replace lost villagers. Thus villagers become the primary aim in attacks and not your army.

A loss of a TC in AOM is MUCH MORE effective than in AOK. It closes to the effect it had in Red Alert 2, where if you lost the MCV? the game was to a great extend over for you. Though in RA2 you couldnt continue building while in AOM you can, but the overall after effect is pretty close.

The earlier it happens the worse, but even if it happens later on, automatically the weight of importance fall directly on your SMs. And how easy is it to protect them from distance (if you have any?)
-Another aspect for the importance of a SM.-

AuthorReplies:
Kaziglu Bey
Mortal
posted 14 May 2002 06:52 AM EDT (US)     1 / 25       
Everyone starts off with a settlement, so it could be rebuilt just there. But if you loose your last settlement you're out of the game.
c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 14 May 2002 09:44 AM EDT (US)     2 / 25       
settlements will b important for gettin more pop and to expand...can they b destroyed or just takin over by an enemy?

TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 14 May 2002 09:52 AM EDT (US)     3 / 25       
Your first TC is built on a settlement yes...

TC's will obviously have a larger role in AoM...but at the same time a shift from the role we're familiar with. Settlements are unlikely to be conveniently placed next a gold pile and a big forest to defend your industriously booming economy like your TC's would be in AoK, rather they will like your starting TC in AoE and AoK where, in a fairly clear area.

The value of the TC then is producing villagers and raising your max pop cap, not as protection for your expansion. (Not to say that both are not critical to the game.) Additional value also likely as fo od drop points, thus you'll place farms around expansion town centers still.

TC's being rarer though, will probably be tougher. We already know that TC's can fire arrows ungarrisonned, which is one addition.

The real change with settlements I think is that it removes part of the distinction between an excellent boomer and a mediocre one, it basically puts a cap on your booming.


TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
Thunder
VIP BonusXP
posted 14 May 2002 01:14 PM EDT (US)     4 / 25       
"...but nevertheless, SM (settlements) are secondary TCs despite their importance in a game they cannot replace one."

Settlements are spots on the map. You build TCs on them, so they become full fledged TCs, nothing second rate about them.

Gagylpus
Mortal
posted 14 May 2002 06:14 PM EDT (US)     5 / 25       
I think that now that TC can only be built on settlements that we should be able to build them in all ages.

Gagylpus
I don't have a signature. Signatures are for mortals. Or very insecure immortals like those freaking Greek gods.
eskay
Mortal
posted 14 May 2002 06:35 PM EDT (US)     6 / 25       
Hmmmm...I'm not sure I understand this.

The building in the upper left corner here is a settlement, right?

If so, then is there a reason why the player hasn't built a town center on top of it? He seems to be otherwise pretty well set up...

Could this be an indication that you still won't be able to build tcs until a certain age, or perhaps they cost a lot of resources??

If so, can settlements build vills/whatever else they build?

Because if not, then what's the point of having it sit there?

And if you destroy a tc, does it revert back to being a settlement?

Or am I just completely wrong on all counts?

-SK

PS: I'm new here, btw. I think.

edit: spelling

[This message has been edited by eskay (edited 05-14-2002 @ 06:36 PM).]

Yamato
Mortal
posted 14 May 2002 06:51 PM EDT (US)     7 / 25       
Correct eskay, you will not be able to build tcs until a certain age. From the GameSpot spotlight (the Zeus one)...

"Right now, since it appears you can build town centers only during the third age, capturing settlements and boosting your pop cap seems like a later game strategy. But it adds yet another resource to fight over; we foresee lots of pitched battles back and forth over settlements, as town centers get razed and rebuilt in an effort to field ever larger armies."

Personally I think it will be a big mistake if ES does not allow you to build TCs until the 3rd age or until the 2nd age. Why? Remember how they talked about going from 4 ages to 3 because Age of Kings games always grew into a race to advance ages? While I don't mind that they went back to 4 ages to support God powers, I do think they have forgotten their desire to make it less a race through the ages because the whole reason AoK was a race to the castle age was because that's when you could build town centers. The fact that a player's skill was often measured by his "castle time" says it all. They are going to have the same problem if they don't change it so that you can build TCs right away.

That said, I do think settlements are cool and I do look forward to territorial battles over these strategic landpoints. That happens to some degree over resources (gold, stone, etc) but never to the degree that say Starcraft got people fighting over mineral bases and gas mines. The real-life realism of cities being resilient, persisting entities which civilizations can lose and reoccupy is a terrific addition to the Age series in my opinion!


H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C
c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 14 May 2002 08:24 PM EDT (US)     8 / 25       

Quoted from eskay:

PS: I'm new here, btw. I think.

u dont know if ur new or not?? btw...ur not u joined on 4-17-02 but welcome


eskay
Mortal
posted 14 May 2002 09:33 PM EDT (US)     9 / 25       
I guess not...But I dunno if I ever posted or not. Probably did. Can you tell I lurk at too many forums?

And thanks for the welcome

-SK

The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 15 May 2002 02:39 AM EDT (US)     10 / 25       
to clear things up, Settlements are:

-Gaia half-TCs. They are simply spots on the map, and a number of them are always spread around the map.
-You can only build in a certain area radius around your captured settlement(s).
-To capture you must build your TC on top of the settlement. TCs can only be built on settlments.
-You start with a TC on top of a settlement.
-If you lose all settlements you are out of the game.
-You do NOT control a settlement if you do not build a TC on top of it, it remains under Gaia control.
-Settlements thus prevent huge cities, excessive booming, TC rushes, and boring games where you have 1 enemy unit hiding in a huge map.

PseudoKnight
Mortal
posted 15 May 2002 04:17 AM EDT (US)     11 / 25       
Hmm...

Quote:

-You can only build in a certain area radius around your captured settlement(s).

Would someone confirm this? I don't remember reading this anywhere. Plus, it doesn't look that way in that screenshot eskay posted.

Quote:

-If you lose all settlements you are out of the game.

I want confirmation on this as well. I thought this was an option, but I may be a little slow on the information.

[This message has been edited by PseudoKnight (edited 05-15-2002 @ 04:17 AM).]

Kaziglu Bey
Mortal
posted 15 May 2002 04:38 AM EDT (US)     12 / 25       
PseudoKnight, the first one seems wrong to me too. I've read so much about the Norse being great forward builders and that they can plop down buildings a little everywhere. And it sounds a bit like a feature coming from Red Alert wich makes me nauseous.

On the second one I'm sure it's possible to turn it off, but for what I've seen its a standard winning condition for a regular game. Simple and effective I would say. Few people like roaches, not in the long run anyway.

TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 15 May 2002 04:53 AM EDT (US)     13 / 25       

Quote:

-You can only build in a certain area radius around your captured settlement(s).

First I've heard of it.

Quote:

I want confirmation on this as well. I thought this was an option, but I may be a little slow on the information.

From the Zeus showcase: "In addition, the game has one new victory condition: If you control all settlements, including your enemy's original town center location, you win the game."

'Victory condition'. Like Conquest and Standard or Time based in AoK, something you can change.


TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
EE Talon
Mortal
posted 15 May 2002 05:32 AM EDT (US)     14 / 25       
TSD, does that mean that you can only built a TC within a certain radius of a settlement? If not... Its just awkward to restrict buildings to a small area.

Talanos | AoM + AoE3H's former Unofficial Angel
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
FPH MSNIT talon@transalt.com
TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 15 May 2002 05:35 AM EDT (US)     15 / 25       
It has to be built right on top of it, I believe, occupying the same area...as in the TC will occupy the same location the settlement did before it was built.

EG, before TC construction looks like this:

After TC construction looks like this:

Could be wrong. Ask Thunder, he's played the game.


TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.

[This message has been edited by TheShadowDawn (edited 05-15-2002 @ 05:37 AM).]

PseudoKnight
Mortal
posted 15 May 2002 05:38 PM EDT (US)     16 / 25       

Quote:

'Victory condition'. Like Conquest and Standard or Time based in AoK, something you can change.

Ok, that's what I thought. Just making sure I wasn't losing my mind. heh

Vagelis
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 10:07 AM EDT (US)     17 / 25       
I was away for a while...

So your orginal TC is built over a SM. Didnt know that. I guess that solves it all. TCs arent as important as I thought, though still more than in AOK.

Quote:

"You can only build in a certain area radius around your captured settlement(s).

If true, and you wont be able to build freely around the map then, as TheShadowDawn said,
...Settlements are unlikely to be conveniently placed next a gold pile and a big forest...
it presents a problem; how will you build lumber-mining camps next to gold and food if they are far away from SMs? It seems rather unlikely.

Quote:

"In addition, the game has one new victory condition: If you control all settlements, including your enemy's original town center location, you win the game."

Does the same apply in losing in big games? You do win if you capture all SMs in a 1v1, but in larger multiplayer games 2v2, 4v4, 5v5, if many players capture your SMs do you still dropp out and simply view the game as a ghost?

Hey, thats a good question! Anybody know about that?

[This message has been edited by Vagelis (edited 05-16-2002 @ 10:10 AM).]

TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 10:31 AM EDT (US)     18 / 25       
Edit: Read this from Thunder's war story.

Quote:

Meanwhile, back in my town, I built a fortress to help protect my town center. I wasn't in real bad shape at that time, having expanded my town after finding another settlement, which are those areas where you can build TCs. The flood of Norse infantry and more importantly, rams carried by two beefy guys, began to take its toll. My fortress went down in a heap after a fight and repair battle, and soon to follow was my original TC. Battle Boars, a Norse mythological unit, began to appear around this time and went crazy snorting and kicking my villagers all over the place. It wasn't pretty, and I was in big trouble. My second town center was now getting hit by Kidd's Catapult fire, so it was doomed as well. But, all was not lost.

Relatively unscathed, Swinger flared me a path out of trouble and into his town. I fled my crumbling town, chased by a group of Kidd's archers, jumped into Swinger's Underworld Passage, and was transported to the enemy side of the map where he had saved me a settlement area to build a new Town Center. I began to build but was set upon by Kidd's infantry, who were doing some serious damage to my unbuilt structure. My lone Minotaur, which came through the Underworld Passage too, was head-butting and hacking them up pretty good, but again Swinger helped out with some units of his own to kill off the attack. Finally, with a new TC up, I began to rebuild. It was a crazy few minutes of running and an intense fight.

It isn't entirely clear, but it seems to me, the sequence of events is

a) TC #1 dies
b) Villies from TC #2 go through Passage
c) TC #2 dies
d) New TC gets built

Which implies that you don't get knocked out of the game unless your entire team has no settlements?


TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.

[This message has been edited by TheShadowDawn (edited 05-16-2002 @ 10:35 AM).]

Lewk73
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 10:43 AM EDT (US)     19 / 25       
Wait... Either I misunderstood or this could potentially pose a problem early in the game.

Won't people go on really, really early rushes trying to knock down that ONE tp of yours (thus putting you out of the game)? What about in a Post-imp game (or whatever the ages are)... won't they just build themselves some really strong units and knock your settlement to the ground?

This could be a problem for people like boomers who sit there and wait a bit be4 they start putting up defences and going after their military.

ES better give tps a TON of hitpoints. Or I'm wrong. Or I'm right.

-Luke


If two wrongs don't make a right, try three!
-Unknown
Vagelis
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 12:11 PM EDT (US)     20 / 25       
What TheShadowDawn described, clarifies this;
victory condition: "If you control all settlements, including your enemy's original town center location, you win the game".

In any type of game, team or normal(1v1, 1v2...), only if a single player captures all SMs in the map does the game end. Even if you loose all your SMs by that guy, but the map still has some free, neither the game ends nor do you loose.

So even if a player rushes in attempt to capture your only SM (TC), he wont achieve anything b/c there are still other SMs in the map free.

i.e. see Thunder's war story. After his last SM was lost he didnt loose. He went off, found another one and rebuilt.

For you to loose, before all SMs in the map are captured, you must be completely destroyed.

[This message has been edited by Vagelis (edited 05-16-2002 @ 12:18 PM).]

Funky_Chicken
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 03:31 PM EDT (US)     21 / 25       
Do you think it'll be an instant win or it'll be a sort of "Settlements 1245 years" thing (randon number btw)also I doubt that you'll only be able to build in the area of a captured settlement, think about water maps, waht idf the sea was that bit away from your start point but not your foes.

"slaughter is optional, Victory is optimal!!!"
"It's a double bladed sword - both blades are on the same side!"
Lewk73
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 04:10 PM EDT (US)     22 / 25       
I'd say that if the guy gets at your tp (which should be the center of your town) then it's taken him long enough already... end of game!

Besides, he also has to build that tp of his own on there... that should be long enough for you to get up and start kicking his villies to death.


If two wrongs don't make a right, try three!
-Unknown
Yamato
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 04:14 PM EDT (US)     23 / 25       
tp? town place? toilet paper?

H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C
ES_DeathShrimp
Immortal
posted 17 May 2002 11:18 AM EDT (US)     24 / 25       

Quote:

While I don't mind that they went back to 4 ages to support God powers, I do think they have forgotten their desire to make it less a race through the ages because the whole reason AoK was a race to the castle age was because that's when you could build town centers.

DS: This assumes AOM plays more like AOK than it really does. Amazingly, most players don't need a lot more Villagers when they hit Age 3. They've built about all they need to support their economy by then. Furthermore, AOM TCs cannot defend you from attacks (especially in Age3) all by themselves. In addition, the exponential Villager growth you could achieve in AOK was partially because you could put the TCs anywhere, typically close to your old TCs. It's a whole different ball of wax when your TCs are limited. Sure, you may hit Age3 first and claim another Settlement, but then your opponent (who invested more in his army) might come knock it down before you've trained 2 new Villagers.

There is no concept of only having to build by your TCs. The idea has come up a few times, but we thought it would be too much of a fundamental shift away from the way AOK games play.

There is a "control all Settments" victory condition. We use it a lot, because it sucks when Jimmy is hiding his last few units in some corner of the map. However, we will let you choose VCs, just like you could in AOK. I predict that even Wonder-haters will probably use the Settlement VC, though.

Jus
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 02:11 PM EDT (US)     25 / 25       

Quote:

There is no concept of only having to build by your TCs. The idea has come up a few times, but we thought it would be too much of a fundamental shift away from the way AOK games play.

Am i glad to hear that. DS, since TC's fire on their own, can you garrison in them? And if it is possible to garrison will villagers and archers add to damage?

Concerning victory conditions, may i suggest that the game display a list of possible ways too win so we can select any number of different winning rules like civ3 instead of like choosing conquest/standard?

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