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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Could the norse have the most effective defenses
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Topic Subject:Could the norse have the most effective defenses
RuneDwarf
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 09:58 PM EDT (US)         
Two aspects of transportation mainly roks (giant birds that transport units) and powers such as shifting sands and underworld portal are troubling to the standard Greek or Egyption player, who tends to concentrate lots of walls and soldiers at key choke points. By the time a player rushed his soldiers to the back of his base it could be half destroyed and his enemy entrenched. The Norse however guard their buildings much like the Goths did in Age of Kings (having lots of infintry around buildings) so they would be able to fight off such invasions much more effectivly. Could the Norse be the most effective deffender inedvertently?
AuthorReplies:
Stone Minotaur
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 10:05 PM EDT (US)     1 / 27       
LMAO, it depends on the player, duh

"In the centre was Phobos (Fear) worked in adamant, unspeakable, staring backwards with eyes that glowed with fire. His mouth was full of teeth in a white row, fearful and daunting, and upon his grim brow hovered frightful Eris (Strife) who arrays the throng of men ...
RuneDwarf
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 10:06 PM EDT (US)     2 / 27       
what do you mean like that I am refering to countering the choke bypassing transportation meathods
TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 10:36 PM EDT (US)     3 / 27       
Considering that Shifting Sands is one shot and Underworld Tunnel can be destroyed and I have my doubts about the Roc, the conventional approach will still dominate. The Norse may, with their 'viral' nature and ability to move around the map faster than the other cultures rather than be pinned down in place might make them better against these two GP's and one MU, but against a conventional enemy, I don't think as much so.

After all, you can only use shifting sands once, then you have to get past the enemy buildup the normal way, no?


TheShædøwDåwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
pdwxyz
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 10:56 PM EDT (US)     4 / 27       
course, if he is real good he only needs one shot
SlicK NicK
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 11:01 PM EDT (US)     5 / 27       
But the Greeks and Egyptians can have walls and guard them with units

sex is not the answer, sex is the question, yes is the answer

Don't assume, it leads to assumptions

jduderocks
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 11:14 PM EDT (US)     6 / 27       
NO they could not
Steel_Cat
Mortal
posted 16 May 2002 11:33 PM EDT (US)     7 / 27       
I believe all this means is that conventional siege weaponry will not be as effective against the Norse, since they're everywhere. If you read my sectional thread about the siege tower and walls, it shall all be clear as day.

"Its never the things that happen to us that upset us, its our view of them." -Epictetus
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c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 16 May 2002 11:46 PM EDT (US)     8 / 27       

Quoted from Stone Minotaur:

LMAO, it depends on the player, duh

im with that


pdwxyz
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 00:06 AM EDT (US)     9 / 27       
I think that all three civs will end up having equal defenses, simply in different ways. The Norse will be able to pour infantry out of their buildings; the greeks will have decent walls and strong units to guard them; and the egyptians will have weaker units, but stronger walls, towers etc. I'm sure ES has figured out someway to balance themall in anycase. We have to remember that one of the basic ideas behind AOM is that all civs will be able to do allt hings equally well, just in different ways.
Thunder
VIP BonusXP
posted 17 May 2002 00:08 AM EDT (US)     10 / 27       
"The Norse may, with their 'viral' nature and ability to move around the map faster than the other cultures..."

I believe that's because Norse buildings don't stand up well to punishment, as has been mentioned. Weak buildings don't generally make for strong defenses.

throbin
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 02:02 AM EDT (US)     11 / 27       
RuneDwarf, just because egyptians are renowned for their strong defences and to a lesser extent, so are the greeks, that doesn't mean that the centre of their villages will be dead. The pharaoh(presumabely) can banish MUs so that will take care of the Roc. Of course it will depend on the player however the average player is smart enough not to leave a town ungaurded and anyway, fortresses and towers will take care of the one set of invaders that makes it in with shifting sands.

***Throbin, pharoah of egypt***
The_Avenger772
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 02:33 AM EDT (US)     12 / 27       
of course, if you look at a setting like this;

-Black Forest (or some other type with a very few number of chokepoints, very narrow)
-Greeks vs. Norse, medium/normal sized map. (most likely only one chokepoint)
-Norse gets underworld portal

as you would know, most of the players will concentrate most of his/her castles/towers (fortresses/towers) and usually all of his/her army near that chokepoint, as if the other player atked he/she would need to defend. Some players may have a few towers in the back of their city, maybe some walls and towers, but nobody would invest more than 10, 20 units at the back of their city, even if they feared shifting sands/underworld portal, simply because it was too bothersome.

jefflam
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 04:44 AM EDT (US)     13 / 27       
I totally agree with pdwxyz. Everything would be balanced, we just have to do things differently in the different civs.

E.g:
Greeks have equal of everything. The units, structures, walls, have medium Hp, atk.
The egypts will have stronger buildings, units. But their pharoah have to enhanced(I know its another word, can't remember) the buildings to make them stronger.
Norse have weak stuff. But their strength lies in quantity, not quality.

So basically everything is balanced. It depends on the skill of the player

The above is all my estimations, so if I did say anything wrong, don't flame me


Joking leads to anger.
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to suffering.
I'm Joking.
l3litZer0

[This message has been edited by jefflam (edited 05-17-2002 @ 04:45 AM).]

Questionaire
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 07:28 AM EDT (US)     14 / 27       
Avenger,
Choke points worked in AOK cause everyone attacked on the ground. But in AOM you've got Combat flying MU's like nidhogg, Which would simply fly along the edge of the map and to the back of ur base and conduct a villie barbeque.


Im' Here & there & everywhere...

[This message has been edited by Captain_Aneurism (edited 13-13-1645 @ 00:88 RZ)]
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jefflam
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 08:08 AM EDT (US)     15 / 27       
Just reserve some archers at your base

Joking leads to anger.
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to suffering.
I'm Joking.
l3litZer0

deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 03:50 PM EDT (US)     16 / 27       
UH Hey!
You forget that Norse buildings fall like straw.

They are very weak. I see the norse as a civ that spreads like a liquid all over the map, being excellent at attacking, but horrible at defence.


The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
RuneDwarf
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 07:23 PM EDT (US)     17 / 27       
Im talking about how AOK defenses will not cut it against flying units, the age genere was not designed to support flying units and there will have to be adjustments
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 07:38 PM EDT (US)     18 / 27       
Let me tell everyone something. The Norse have the weakest defenses. Not the most effective. The weakest. The Egyptians have the strongest. The Greeks are sort of in the middle…

The underworld passage GP will not make Norse defense any stronger (unless your saying they don’t have to defend against “chronosphere” GPs, which isn’t true because of shifting sands)… And believe me Egyptians will be able to counter any Norse attack. Its not like any player is gonna leave their base open for an army to march through. Players will adapt to the risk of GPs. People simply will not build all their castles (fortresses lol) at one side of their base, they know what the enemy has… Take the earthquake GP. I think that makes the Norse pretty vulnerable does it not?

Quote:

towers (fortresses/towers) and usually all of his/her army near that chokepoint (of black forest

Actually that’s a real bad move. In BF you wall immediately at the choke point so you can boom (pretty much only option in BF). If you try to build a castle behind those walls, you are asking to get trebbed by some siege weapons you cannot get to…. You’re down 650 stone…

-Vladimir87

deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 09:49 PM EDT (US)     19 / 27       
and on flying units,
they are all scouts. Scouts = weak.
a couple archers kill them.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
jefflam
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 10:05 PM EDT (US)     20 / 27       
Oh wait...Norse do not have archer units...they have throwing axemen. So I presume they too can attack flying units?

Joking leads to anger.
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to suffering.
I'm Joking.
l3litZer0

deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 10:21 PM EDT (US)     21 / 27       
or jump really high.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Stone Minotaur
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 10:54 PM EDT (US)     22 / 27       

Quote:

Actually that’s a real bad move. In BF you wall immediately at the choke point so you can boom (pretty much only option in BF). If you try to build a castle behind those walls, you are asking to get trebbed by some siege weapons you cannot get to…. You’re down 650 stone…

ummm, one word my friend and fellow FPH....G-A-T-E


"In the centre was Phobos (Fear) worked in adamant, unspeakable, staring backwards with eyes that glowed with fire. His mouth was full of teeth in a white row, fearful and daunting, and upon his grim brow hovered frightful Eris (Strife) who arrays the throng of men ...
deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 17 May 2002 11:39 PM EDT (US)     23 / 27       
nah, hes right. Trebs will still take you out.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
shelper
HG Alumnus
(id: Smileyshelper)
posted 18 May 2002 07:54 AM EDT (US)     24 / 27       

Quote:

and on flying units,
they are all scouts
scouts = weak

niddhog?


It's like watching a flock of clown-like apes trying to navigate a ship, even though the ship has in fact been stranded on some kind of reef for about 7 years and none of the apes have noticed it yet. -Drahnier on OD moderation.
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 18 May 2002 10:28 AM EDT (US)     25 / 27       

Quote:

ummm, one word my friend and fellow FPH....G-A-T-E

You could just as easily delete the wall. It doesnt matter. As DD agreed, the trebs will still get your castle. Most likely they will have things guarding the trebs as well... Trust me, I have lost matches when I build castles near the choke point...

Usually unless you have a significant force guarding the choke point your castle will probably fail...(having units guarding the castle can be bad as well if your playing anyone good. Because then they will be the Britons and will longbow your units guarding the castle).

-Vladimir87

RuneDwarf
Mortal
posted 18 May 2002 12:04 PM EDT (US)     26 / 27       
Vladmir why dont u give a actual reason when u contridict me
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 18 May 2002 01:03 PM EDT (US)     27 / 27       

Quote:

Vladmir why dont u give a actual reason when u contridict me

What the heck did I say lol...

All I said is you cannot claim that Norse defense is better than Egyptian and Greek defense when we know that their buildings have significantly fewer hitpoints! We KNOW that Norse are NOT a defensive civ, and we know the Egyptians ARE ...

Your reason for the Norse being a more defensive civ is because they have units in their base already... But its not like they have a standing army of builders! They probably will have four or five ulfsarks, and you think that will compensate for the lack of strong buildings and defensive structures? I certainly think not!

The Egyptian player I say will have just as much of the capability to have troops in his base than the Egyptians will. If you think some ulfsarks are going to take out any worthwile attack you are mistaken...

The wild card of GPs, as I said before , will make players customize their defenses. If a Greek player knows a Norse player could cast underworld passage, obviously he will accomadate this fact and have defenses on other sides of the base, or perhaps a standing force ready to defend...

Quote:

The Norse however guard their buildings much like the Goths did in Age of Kings (having lots of infintry around buildings

Only some builders. And weak ones at that. Who would use their powerful offensive units to build? I think Egyptians and Greeks have just as much of a chance to have infantry "standing around"...

Quote:

Two aspects of transportation mainly roks (giant birds that transport units) and powers such as shifting sands and underworld portal are troubling to the standard Greek or Egyption player

How? THe eggy player puts up some of his great towers, and leaves a few units for defense and he is ready for surprise... Or at least as ready as any norse player would be...

Quote:

who tends to concentrate lots of walls and soldiers at key choke points

I dont think this really can be assumed. People are not idiots (most of the time). They will understand that putting lots of buildings at choke points is not the failsafe solution because...

1) Shifting sands and unwerworld passage GPs
2) Things like Earthquake GPs that could level one military buildup area easily...

There are my reasons, Runedwarf. Thats waht I meant when I said Egyptions, with the strongest defensive buildings, willb e more defensive than the Norse...

-Vladimir87

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