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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » The Flying Units Discussion Thread
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Topic Subject:The Flying Units Discussion Thread
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CC_Straight_Og
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 00:02 AM EDT (US)         
I thought we needed a thread to talk about flying units, so here it is...

We know of or have assumed the existence several flying units in AoM. They are; Pegasus, Phoenix, Raven, Nidhogg, Bellerophon, Griffin and Roc. There may be others as well.

I'll divide them into three speculative categories; scouts, transports and attackers.

Scouts - Pegasus, Phoenix and Raven. They are speculated to have no value as attackers and are only scout units.
Transports- Griffin and Roc. Have been rumoured as having the ability to carry units over walls and across the map. Seems like they'll have little value as attackers themselves. Kinda like transport ships in the air.
Attackers - Nidhogg and Bellerophon. Nidhogg breathes fire and Bellerophon is pictured with a sword or a spear. This leads me to conclude that the Nidhogg is a ranged attacker and Bellerophon is a meele attacker.

Keep in mind that the Nidhogg is summoned by a god power. Certainly, the Nidhogg is powerful, but since its summoned by a GP it's definately limited.

This leads me to the conclusion that there will be no trainable units that are flying and ranged. Do you agree with this assumption? I'm happy about this (if it's true) because flying ranged units are like cav archers that you can never catch. This theory fits in with comments by ES that flying units are not a major part of game balance.

Another thing about flying units I don't understand is the griffin and the roc. Are they second MU's granted by minor gods like Scylla is? I don't believe that they (or any MU) would be relic only as some have suggested. So where does the griffin fit into the Greek tech tree?

Also, if I forgot any flying units feel free to bring them up. I'll put them in a category.

AuthorReplies:
Clarissimus
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 00:06 AM EDT (US)     1 / 39       
*gasp*

You forgot the Flying Purple Hippos!


"It may come as a shock to you . . . You can have fun and be serious all at the same time."
c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 21 May 2002 00:10 AM EDT (US)     2 / 39       
we could wait till the game is out

TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 00:14 AM EDT (US)     3 / 39       
The Griffin I am not too sure on.

Assuming no MU's added in or taken out, we either know or can match an MU with certainty in the case of all gods except Aphrodite, with the MU's left being the Nemean Lion, Turtle and Griffin. The Turtle is a moot point because as DS said, all Naval MU's will be a second MU. So that reduces it to the other two, and we have already seen the Nemean Lion in several screens while the Griffin has remained elusive. Thus I'd match the Nemean Lion to Aphrodite.

Which leaves no room for Griffin on the tech tree, unless of course it is like naval MU's and paired with another unit. Which I doubt, personally, since unlike a naval MU, an air unit is useful on any map.


TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.

[This message has been edited by TheShadowDawn (edited 05-21-2002 @ 00:15 AM).]

c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 21 May 2002 00:22 AM EDT (US)     4 / 39       
ES hasnt said much on the griffin have they? im with TSD on that one right now...we havent learned much about any of the flyin units cept pegasus and nidhogg...right?

CC_Straight_Og
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 00:22 AM EDT (US)     5 / 39       

Quote:

Which leaves no room for Griffin on the tech tree, unless of course it is like naval MU's and paired with another unit. Which I doubt, personally, since unlike a naval MU, an air unit is useful on any map.

True. However, I don't see why one god couldn't grant two useful MU's. I'm skeptical too, since we haven't seen a griffin, but they've mentioned them in previews and they have concept art on the MS site...I think.

Quote:

we could wait till the game is out

Better yet, the beta.

Quote:

You forgot the Flying Purple Hippos!

I think there's a serious possibility that these will be included as cheat units. They've been a fan favorite for a long time now and the hippo art is already in the game!

Last_Knight
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 02:17 AM EDT (US)     6 / 39       

Quote:

This leads me to the conclusion that there will be no trainable units that are flying and ranged. Do you agree with this assumption?


I think you're right.

Is it official that the Phoenix is just a scout? No fire attacks?

There's a chance the griffin is summoned by a God-power like the Nidhogg.
The Griffin can be a flying MU that lands to attack, melee. So he can quickly escape and fly through walls, but every unit he attacks will be able to fight back (similarly to HoMM's griffin).

I'd like to see that unit in the game. The griffin is also appropriate for Mesopotamian civs, maybe in the X-pack.

Bellerophon- in the mythology, he attacked the Chimera with bow and arrows. In that picture his weapon does look like a spear .



The Last Knight
Grasshoppers are cheap, nutritious, tasety,Kosher and easy to dissect
The Fenris Wolf
Banned
posted 21 May 2002 06:52 AM EDT (US)     7 / 39       
Nidhogg, being summoned, i still don't belive that, it's only speculations, and who said it 's name would be nidhogg?
Again speculaitions.

And i have been told by REAL that the Phoenix had a suicide attack.

C'mon guy's don't draw your own conlusions and automatticly think they are right.

Hagbard
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 07:03 AM EDT (US)     8 / 39       
Well, nidhogg is the dragon that chew one of the three underground branches( can't remember the correct word.) on Yggdrasil the world tree And if I remember correct when he has chewed it of ragnarok will begin. Not sure though. Maybe that's why is probaly being summoned and since it is Age of MYTHOLOGY, maybe they should stick to the names in the Norse mythology.

When children blow themself up it is called stupidity. When soldiers do it is called Heroism.

It is with mixed feelings you sit down on a hot toilet seat.

Behind every succesful AoM player there is ........ME.

Dagobert
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 08:30 AM EDT (US)     9 / 39       
I suppose that if there will be air units with range attack, some other units will have a bonus against them (all archers may be?). ES know about the excessive strenght of cav archers in AoE, in fact they know so well that in AoK (pre expansion) the cav archer had been toned down so much that it was almost useless.

In the greek case, there is not much of a problem there as, in addition to regular archers, they have hero archers that probably will be deadly against flying MUs.

The egyptians banishment might also work against flying units just as well as against other units. And egyptians have may be best archery in the game (slingers, archers, chariot archers...).

Only the norse should have a lot of problems against flying unit. I suppose that the axemen will have a bonus similar to the archer bonus. As axemen will be easy to produce, it might be a sufficient counter. In addition, some giants might be able to hit low flying units ??

_____________________________________________________

All this being said, there are not too many attacking flying units out there so that the problem is probably not that big. There will be no more than 1 Nidhogg in a game, we don't know if Phoenix can attack, we don't know if griffins will be there, we don't know if the roc can attack, Bellerophon is a greek hero, so that they will have but one at any given time,... the problem with flying units might be smaller than expected.


************
la guerre comme la guerre
Hagbard
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 09:15 AM EDT (US)     10 / 39       
But still there must be some idea behind them, and not make too bad, that will just put them in stack in the ignore list of GPs.

I hope not all of the archers have a bonus vs the flying units, since then they are all countered by one troop, and a troop you use quite often, not just to counter with.

The scout flyers will be useful and also the transports I think, but hey just my opionion.


When children blow themself up it is called stupidity. When soldiers do it is called Heroism.

It is with mixed feelings you sit down on a hot toilet seat.

Behind every succesful AoM player there is ........ME.

lief ericson
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 10:16 AM EDT (US)     11 / 39       
I never thought the Nidhogg could fly. I always thought that it just kinda lay underground chewing on the yummy world tree root. *Yum...*

SEXITUP.
Former Leader of the FPH Clan
Acting-President of AoMH
Zlaz
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 10:31 AM EDT (US)     12 / 39       
It was mentioned somewhere that it was called nidhog and in the recent chat Bruce said that nidhogg was one of his favorite Godopowers. It isn't speculation Fenris.
Nero
Mortal
(id: Richard the God)
posted 21 May 2002 11:42 AM EDT (US)     13 / 39       
each civ could get a 'summon' gp.
norse=nidhogg
greek=grifon
egypt=?


NERO
"Men, I want you just thinking of one word all season. One word and one word only: Super Bowl."
- Bill Peterson, football coach


CC_Straight_Og
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 03:46 PM EDT (US)     14 / 39       

Quote:

Nidhogg, being summoned, i still don't belive that, it's only speculations, and who said it 's name would be nidhogg?
Again speculaitions.

Bruce Shelley said that Nidhogg was his favorite GP in the recent chat. I'll concede that this proves very little. The GP could give you the ability to train Nidhoggs for all we know. But a summoned MU seems to fit into ES's "trump card" idea for GPs.

Quote:

each civ could get a 'summon' gp.
norse=nidhogg
greek=grifon
egypt=?

The Egyptians can summon the "Son of Osiris" unit. Still, I'm not convinced that the griffin is a summoned unit. I'd guess that it's either buildable or cut.

Quote:

The scout flyers will be useful and also the transports I think, but hey just my opionion.

I agree. Imagine the uses for them on water maps like islands from AoK. Air transports would be great for suprise raids, even if you don't control the seas.

CC_Straight_Og
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 03:52 PM EDT (US)     15 / 39       

Quote:

Is it official that the Phoenix is just a scout? No fire attacks?

I don't think there's anything official yet about the Phoenix except that it's an Egyptian flying MU.

Quote:

And i have been told by REAL that the Phoenix had a suicide attack.

It might, but that still fits with the idea that flying units are not a major part of game balance. How often can a Phoenix suicide itself? Sounds like an interesting idea though.

vladimir87
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 04:14 PM EDT (US)     16 / 39       
Real is right, I must not be crazy...

Quote:

It might, but that still fits with the idea that flying units are not a major part of game balance. How often can a Phoenix suicide itself? Sounds like an interesting idea though.

It was a controversy a fiew months back, thats why I remember. The phoenix, at least I believe, is a flying petard unit, relatively strong against buildings I would imagine, and not as great against units (the attack advantage is speculation)

So saying, it can only "suicide once". Thats really what suicide means when you think about it...

As for the Nidhogg, I feel it is a summoned GP unit. It is an attack most effective against meless units because it is ranged...

Thats the strategy, you choose the sub-deity who gives you the unit only if they enemy is concentrating on soldiers. It would not be good against archers, because they could shoot him down... See, more strategy. This game is awesome...

The other flying units? I say that, as CC_straight hypothesized, they are melee and can be attacked mutually so its not a problem...

Solid post

-Vladimir87

jduderocks
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 04:59 PM EDT (US)     17 / 39       

I dont believe the pheonix is a scout

theres still room in the tech tree minor deities can have more than one MU each


'But beware of the Karakitai, They are without Honour'


CC_Straight_Og
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 05:24 PM EDT (US)     18 / 39       

Quote:

The phoenix, at least I believe, is a flying petard unit, relatively strong against buildings I would imagine, and not as great against units (the attack advantage is speculation)

If this is confirmed than I'm happy about it. The thing I loved about petards is that when you used them your enemy got so rattled and swore and yelled "That's cheap!".
Now when a Phoenix flys over his walls and smashes his TC, he'll really fly off the handle! I can't wait! Games go a lot quicker when your enemy resigns due to anger.

Quote:

Solid post

Thanks!

Quote:

theres still room in the tech tree minor deities can have more than one MU each

True and we don't know a lot about the Egyptians yet.

Zlaz
Mortal
posted 21 May 2002 05:59 PM EDT (US)     19 / 39       
If the Phoenix is a suicide unit then it will probably be reborn. Thats what the original did isn't it.
Hagbard
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 03:36 AM EDT (US)     20 / 39       
But I would rather have a transporting unit then attacking ones, since they are more all-around.

A well placed sneak attack, that's more like my style, up close and personal with the knife.

Quote:

If the Phoenix is a suicide unit then it will probably be reborn. Thats what the original did isn't it

If it will be reborn, how will that work, will it be reborn only once, is it reborn instantly och does it respawn after a fixed setting. If it will be reborn several times, doesn't that be alittle "broken"?


When children blow themself up it is called stupidity. When soldiers do it is called Heroism.

It is with mixed feelings you sit down on a hot toilet seat.

Behind every succesful AoM player there is ........ME.

wrotong
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 04:12 AM EDT (US)     21 / 39       
In Mythology The Pheonix 'rose from the ashes', ie was continually reborn whenever it died. So i'm guessing the fixed setting thing would be most likely if ES stick to mythological 'fact' as much as they did actual fact in aoe and aok.
Real
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 09:19 AM EDT (US)     22 / 39       
Hell and Heaven, the phoenix is a petard unit , no scout no scout, no scout, no scout, no scout .... *wimmers*

Where's paradise?...............AoM is....In war there're only loosers!
Paradise is in your heart - ..gonna come! Love is the soul's blood!
open your heart and you'll be in paradise!..There's no uncertainty, there's only hope!
What's the difference between a raven?...What's yellow and hangs in a tree?
Nothing...its legs are both equal, all about the right one!...=> A blue couch!
Real may say he leaves...but be sure, he'll come back!
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 09:51 AM EDT (US)     23 / 39       
Thats what I thought too... Then again I thought it was just a trainable unit because we ahve seen screens where there are more and one of them. Then again, those were made in the scenario editor... I still think its a trainable unit though...

-Vladimir87

Hagbard
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 10:36 AM EDT (US)     24 / 39       
Hmm a trainable flying petard unit, and even though it is unconfirmed, it says that it might be a myth unit in the first age, that would be alittle bit too tough for me.

When children blow themself up it is called stupidity. When soldiers do it is called Heroism.

It is with mixed feelings you sit down on a hot toilet seat.

Behind every succesful AoM player there is ........ME.

Stone Minotaur
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:20 AM EDT (US)     25 / 39       
I, being a Warcraft fan (of old) like air battles, not between land and air, but air to air, it's very fun

And I think there is a very good chance Aphrodite will have the turtle as her second mu, there have been lots of pictures of her riding on a turtle or something


"In the centre was Phobos (Fear) worked in adamant, unspeakable, staring backwards with eyes that glowed with fire. His mouth was full of teeth in a white row, fearful and daunting, and upon his grim brow hovered frightful Eris (Strife) who arrays the throng of men ...
Chris654
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 12:27 PM EDT (US)     26 / 39       
I have a thought... Those who played EE will know that when you built a few airplanes, it was a *nightmare* to try and select them, as they constantly flew about in the air, i know standing still airplanes is unrealistic but it would have been a hell of a lot easier.

Will AoM's flying units do the same? I hope they just have them standing flapping their wings, and not EE style.

Real
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 12:32 PM EDT (US)     27 / 39       
@Hagbart:As you're new (welcome) I don't flame you, but it is confirmed.

Where's paradise?...............AoM is....In war there're only loosers!
Paradise is in your heart - ..gonna come! Love is the soul's blood!
open your heart and you'll be in paradise!..There's no uncertainty, there's only hope!
What's the difference between a raven?...What's yellow and hangs in a tree?
Nothing...its legs are both equal, all about the right one!...=> A blue couch!
Real may say he leaves...but be sure, he'll come back!

[This message has been edited by Real (edited 05-22-2002 @ 12:33 PM).]

Gawain
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 01:11 PM EDT (US)     28 / 39       
Chris: I don't think the flying units will be constantly circling, cuz it's not like they have to move to stay in the air. They will prolly just flap their wings.

The Phoenix being a petard unit is great, IMHO. However, I don't think that you will be able to have more than one of them at a time. Think about it.. Anyone who had Phoenix's would have a never ending army. Every time one dies it would just be resurrected.

I think that it will be resurrected each time it explodes itself, but will not be resurrected when it is shot down or killed by the enemy. When the enemy kills it, you would then have to train (or summon or whatever) it again. That way it wouldn't be this super unit that your opponent can never get rid of.

jduderocks
Mortal
posted 23 May 2002 00:22 AM EDT (US)     29 / 39       

In the first screeny where we saw the war elephants Pheonix's fly into battle with the eggy army

I think they can attack


'But beware of the Karakitai, They are without Honour'


c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 23 May 2002 00:29 AM EDT (US)     30 / 39       
we cant b sure...they could attack or just b scouts or suicide bombers (like others say) until we c them in a movie or in a battle scene its hard to tell

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