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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy Discussion » Stopping Cam/CA combo w/ Zeus
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Topic Subject:Stopping Cam/CA combo w/ Zeus
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lifeofluxury12
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 01:42 AM EDT (US)         
well, this is my latest problem.I tried using prod/pelt combo but the archers have to much hp and the prods got swallowed by the archers+camels and then the cams killed my pelts.Anybody know a good combo for this one??

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AuthorReplies:
OutThere
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 03:07 AM EDT (US)     1 / 29       
I'm not sure but try hip-hop with the hops in front.
I pretty sure that using pelasts is a bad idea.
perhaps hop-prod would be better.
Holy_Punk
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 03:39 AM EDT (US)     2 / 29       
Peltasts are great against CA. I would go Hop/Hip/Pelt combo (provided we are both in Heroic and I'm are farming and having no troubles with food). CA have good range so few Hipps should flank and go for them, while Hops digging through Camels (most likely under CA fire, that's why Hipps are needed to distract and do some damage) and protecting Pelts.
In mythic Myrm/Pelt. Myrms/Archers own basically anything Egypt/Norse can put together.

Holy Punk.

[This message has been edited by Holy_Punk (edited 08-12-2003 @ 03:40 AM).]

Xenophanes
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 07:26 AM EDT (US)     3 / 29       
I'd say that all this being equal (upgrades and stuff) the combo you use is the best option.
Podromos are supposed to beat camels and peltast are the counter to CA so if you micro your units u should get the upper hand.
My guess is that if you get slaughtered, it has to do with amount of units involved, upgrades or tower/migdol-fire.

NIB
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 07:31 AM EDT (US)     4 / 29       
Just mass hoplites. They beat both camels and chariots cost/pop effectively. Camel+chariot combo sucks from all aspects. Even ra's camel/chariots suck.

If you are decent with microing, throw some peltasts too(after all massing hoplites requires tons of food so its good to mix some wood based units).

PS Why using prodromos if hoplites can beat both camels and chariots easier than prodromos? Why using hippikon, if hoplites can beat chariots almost as good as hippikon but unlike hippikon, they dont get owned by camels, in fact they own camels.


ESO name : Relaxing

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[This message has been edited by NIB (edited 08-12-2003 @ 07:33 AM).]

ArtemisChimera
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 07:58 AM EDT (US)     5 / 29       
If a Ra player was facing Zeus opponent, the first thing they would make would be axemen. They'll tear apart the hoplites, working with CAs. While the camels take care of Hipps and toxes.

Prods and peltasts would probably be best against Camels and CAs, (If microed properly) with some Hypaspists to take care of the axemen.


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NIB
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 08:05 AM EDT (US)     6 / 29       
If, if, if.

This is how to counter camel/chariot combo. The best way to counter this combo is with hoplites or hoplites/peltasts.

Dont make units based on ifs, make untis based on now. Sure your enemy will make axemen and then you change units. Simple as that.

Making counter units that get owned by counters isnt smart. Why making hypaspists to counter axemen and prodromos to counter camels? Sure hypaspists beat axemen(barely) and prodromos beat camels(barely). But hippikon/toxotes beat axemen more effectively than hypaspists and hoplites beat camels more effectively than prodromos.

Just use the correct units in the correct ratio and micro them.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 09:05 AM EDT (US)     7 / 29       
Sorry, NIB, but chariot archers own hoplites. Their speed allows them not to let the hoplites come even close, but they can fire volley after volley from the distance. A few camels can serve as a meat shield so that the CA do not even need to retreat. If you go full hoplites and the Egyptian does not want to employ barracks units, he will emphasize CA and build only a few camels for the meat shield. Of course like every other combo this can be countered, but not with mass hoplites.

There is a variety of options against camels / CA. Peltasts can be useful, but actually stable units will do. Adjust your hippikon / prodromos ratio to his CA / camel ratio. If he is coming with many camels, you have many prodromos. If he goes heavier on CA, then you do more hippikons and only a few prodromos for the few camels he has. Hippikons have the great advantage over peltasts that they can actually chase the CA, while the peltasts can only fight if the CA choose to come into range.

Just make sure you do not blunder on upgrades, micro(!), and reinforcement production.

NIB
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 09:39 AM EDT (US)     8 / 29       

Quote:

Sorry, NIB, but chariot archers own hoplites. Their speed allows them not to let the hoplites come even close, but they can fire volley after volley from the distance.

Let the chariots run. They are still pathetic units that cant kill crap and die from anything. Just for for his tc. He cant run for ever. On heroic running stops.

Sure on classical you can run cause you know that your enemy cant take you down.

On heroic running stops cause seige comes in and the enemy can kill you. Thus you cant run. Thus you end up having an army that gets owned easily by everything cost/pop effectively. Go ahead and run, i will still detroy your tc, grab is and have higher pop. Do hit and run if you want to but you will lose your tc.

Chariots and camels suck. And hoplites can be both of them with ease. Let me remind you that an average heroic hoplite has 150hp while an average heroic chariot has 110hp and the chariot costs 3 pop and does the same ammount of dmg with an hoplite.

Go ahead and do hit and run. I will have 30 hoplites and you will have 5 camels and 15 chariots. Your tcs will go down and you will end up having no map control and no tcs. Sure i will lose some hoplites, but who cares. You cant win on a full scale battle. You can only hit and run. Some walls can stop your raiding. And you cant defend your tcs either. What you said? Chariots are ranged and can hit hoplites while hoplites are advancing towards them? Rofl. Chariots cant even aim a dead chicken.

Hoplite/peltasts do even better if you are decent with microing but even pure hoplites can beat camel+chariot combo or massed chariots.

To sum up, chariots suck, camels are decent against hip+tox combo and both of them suck when it comes to full scale battles cause of their pop requirements. 3 pop for a 90hp unit? Rofl get real.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

[This message has been edited by NIB (edited 08-12-2003 @ 09:42 AM).]

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 10:14 AM EDT (US)     9 / 29       
You are very self-confident, NIB. According to your signature, your wisdom has only taken you to 1600 so far.

I am not going to run away with the chariots. I am just going to keep my distance, as it is optimal for archers. Fighting infantry is what archers were made for.

Quote:


Let me remind you that an average heroic hoplite has 150hp while an average heroic chariot has 110hp and the chariot costs 3 pop and does the same ammount of dmg with an hoplite.

Let me remind you that your hoplite doesn't do any damage at all to the CA deu to the distance, however, he is under constant arrow fire. For that reason, even 10 hp would do for the CA if you are not coming up with anything else but hoplites. Under those circumstances, the 3 pop cost is secondary. Even a small army will eventually kill you if you cannot harm it. You cannot rebuild hoplites as fast as the CA army will kill them without suffering any losses. Besides the fact that the casualties will cost you a fortune in food and gold.

Quote:


You can only hit and run. Some walls can stop your raiding.

Again, I am not running. I am firing as long as you don't order your hoplites to attack the CA. When you do, I back up just enough so that your hops don't reach me, and still keep firing. I want to see you build walls in mid-combat behind me so that I have no space to back up!

Elendil_King
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 11:04 AM EDT (US)     10 / 29       
Zeus hoplites can take down tcs or migdols under ca fire. Once that cover is taken down, you can outmass CA and beat them. Hoplites are great general use unit. It does decently against archers. In classical, it can beat any combo the greeks use. But it is not wise to go heavy on hoplites in classical.
ArtemisChimera
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 11:47 AM EDT (US)     11 / 29       
NIB,

When a player makes units without considering IF the opponent has made counters, then that player is most likely to lose.

Let's take your example of massing 30 hoplites.

The egyptian player is not going to make ANY camels if all you have is infantry. They'll mass CA's, and throw in some axemen. A good egyptian player would NEVER play against Zeus without making axemen, so it's all very well for your 30 hoplites to "go for the TC", but they'll be slaughtered by the axemen, CAs and tower fire.

Let's see IF you can play against a good egyptian player who masses axemen and slingers and come out alive. With your "massed hoplite" strategy, I doubt it.


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

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And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

goodbaby
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 11:59 AM EDT (US)     12 / 29       
Hoplite will be killed before they reach CAs.
Pelpast is the right unit to kill CA,but they are not good enough.
The best counter combo of greek is Hip+Prodomos.They are faster than CA+Camel combo and with micro,it's possible to beat the egypt combo.However,it's not the strong point of Zeus.
Another counter of Zeus is FM to get Myrmidon.They kill every thing of egypt except axeman.With some toxotes,you can beat everything of egypt.
lifeofluxury12
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 12:16 PM EDT (US)     13 / 29       

Quote:

PS Why using prodromos if hoplites can beat both camels and chariots easier than prodromos?

Dont CA's counter infantry.Hey go read the newbie guide and look at the screen where it shows hops appraoching the CA's and says specifically: "Try not to fight units that counter yours"- This is usually what happens.The ra does a fh with rain and shoots up migdol right away and starts pumping the units.Im going to be in classical for atleast 3 more minutes if its around 8-9 minutes.I cant get hops because I'll never make it to heroic on time and there are no ways to beat them-

I think I will use the hopp and pelt combo next time in heroic/


|My Site|Recs|SaM|-Fenrir_Ghost - Matches - Challenge Me
I am life.I am luxury.I am the envy, that brings such ugly.I dont have a two-way, nor a cell-phone.My thoughts do not touch yourself alone.I am society.I strive to be the positive inside me.My opinion's are lively, used to describe me.Look at your negative, and how you live it.Dismiss the explicit in your mind and visit the bright side of community, and how you enrich it.
I am the Luxuries of Life, therefor my Life is Luxury
Creso
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 12:45 PM EDT (US)     14 / 29       
NIB, if Ra went Sekmhet & researched bone bow, he'll outrange any archer you have, he can just hit & run anytme he wants, he can even do damage to tc & towers without getting any. The best way to go, in my humble opinion, is hipp/prod/peltast

ESO: TheWiseDux, TheSmartDux, TheDux

Gnothi Seauton

goodbaby
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 12:52 PM EDT (US)     15 / 29       
I have 2 games vs Isis and Odin which I did a Ra FH.They countered my strategy very well.Guess what's that? The massed MU.
The Isis player got like anubites to chase my Camel+CA.
The Odin player get 4 valky to kill my combo.
Maybe Zeus can try centuar mass(not sure though).
ArtemisChimera
Mortal
posted 12 August 2003 01:28 PM EDT (US)     16 / 29       
Massing MUs is a good solution for the Came and CAs combo.

Minotaur: Could take out a few camels, but slow
Centaur: Useful for getting at the CAs and easy to mass, but better for raiding
Hydra: Ok, but too slow
Manticore: Perfect against the CAs but would be weak against the camels
Medusa: Not so good, save her for the more powerful MUs
Colossus: WAY too slow, but could take out a few camels.

I think that Minotaurs and Manticores would be a nice way to stop the Cam/CA combo, but you'll need to micro them and keep out of the way of priests.


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

NIB
Mortal
posted 13 August 2003 04:32 AM EDT (US)     17 / 29       

Quote:

Dont CA's counter infantry

No they dont. They dont get a bonus and their stats are too crappy to beat most infantry, including spearmen/ulfsarks and especially hoplites. They can only beat axemen and tas effectively. Dont believe everything you read.

Quote:

NIB, if Ra went Sekmhet & researched bone bow, he'll outrange any archer you have, he can just hit & run anytme he wants, he can even do damage to tc & towers without getting any.

Yes and greek players get couple petrobolos and rapes all egyptian building from a distance. So you will have to get your melee units close in order to kill the enemy seige or you will lose your tc(s). Thus you will have to engage in a full scale battle. Thus you will lose.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

[This message has been edited by NIB (edited 08-13-2003 @ 04:33 AM).]

Holy_Punk
Mortal
posted 13 August 2003 04:56 AM EDT (US)     18 / 29       
NIB, 30 upgraded Hoplites is awful power, I agree. And on the same level of players they will win over 15 CA and 5 Camels. However, it's not very clever resource-wise to throw pure Hops on CA. Your losses in the battle will be more than losses of your oponent. The whole goal of the game is to win battle so you would be in plus resource-wise, unless it's a final battle. After all, you can win against Slingers with Toxotes, it just will cost you hell of resources.
Hops/Pelt plus some Hips will do job much better and FASTER, making you spending less resource than opponent. Pelts own CA, while, as you said, Hops can deal with Camels very effectively taking some damage from CA. Hips would run around and fight CA as well.

Holy Punk.

NIB
Mortal
posted 13 August 2003 05:30 AM EDT (US)     19 / 29       
If you read my answer you would see that i suggested hoplite+peltast combo as the most effective IF you can micro your units. Most low rated ppl dont micro their units so in this case, peltasts are useless and its better to go for all hoplites.

And hippikon is useless. If you can micro them to get to flank the enemy camels and hit the chariots, then you can replace them with some peltasts which are even more effective than hippikon countering chariots. And hoplites are almost as effective as hippikon against chariots and a lot more effective than hippikon against camels. Also since we are talking about a zeus player, his hoplites can also be used as mini seige units.

To sum up, if you cant micro, just mass hoplites and you will be fine. If you can micro go for peltast+hoplites.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

[This message has been edited by NIB (edited 08-13-2003 @ 05:33 AM).]

Holy_Punk
Mortal
posted 13 August 2003 05:40 AM EDT (US)     20 / 29       
Even Zeus Hops cannot catch CA. They can stand up to it well and will win, but adding some Hipps will make things better, from my point of view.
Hipps will engage CA and :
1. Pull some CA fire on themselves (high pierce armor).
2. Crash CA meanwhile.
3. Force opponent to pull back some Camels, letting Hops and Pelts to get to CA faster.
4. Could even force CA flee battle field, breaking CA/Camels combo.
5. Psychologically pressure opponent - three kinds of units make him feel you are powerful (what would scare you more, pure Hops or Hops with Tox?).
6. Can follow CA/Camels if opponent retreats. Camels will run in front of CA, making CA perfect target for Hipps, unless opponents microing Camels. Then one can just pull up Hops/Pelts and engage in battle again.


Holy Punk.

[This message has been edited by Holy_Punk (edited 08-13-2003 @ 05:41 AM).]

Lokipower
Mortal
posted 13 August 2003 02:31 PM EDT (US)     21 / 29       
I would say go 60% Peltasts and 40% Hoplites. Those Hops should hold their grounds very well vs Camels and Peltasts, with their superior range, will completly own the CAs.
Elendil_King
Mortal
posted 13 August 2003 10:02 PM EDT (US)     22 / 29       
Get two-three hydras to take enemy fire and outmass them with zeus hops.

OR

Get (2-3)hydras+peltast and 5 centaurs with hoplites pouring in as reinforcements.

Why reinforce with Hoplites? The eggy guy will see your peltast and try to defend his CA with camels or slingers. If you go for a general purpose unit like the hoplite, you can beat both camels and slingers. If you go hippikons, there is the "if" that the eggy guy will go for camels and beat them up. Thus go Hoplites. They counter both camels and slingers effectively.

Ekanta
Mortal
posted 13 August 2003 10:32 PM EDT (US)     23 / 29       
only one thing beats zeus hoplites and peltasts: massed thor uber ulfs.
LoneWolf1
Mortal
posted 14 August 2003 01:12 AM EDT (US)     24 / 29       
Tell me those who are going to mass CAs. How can you mass those CA, when they each cost 100W?

So you try to mass them to say 20 CA, so that`s what 2000W. Are you willin to pay for that much resources when the eggy isn`t wood depended at all, meanin that there won`t be much wood collecting going on??

30 Hoplites will destroy a TC. Actually 20 Hoplites can destroy a TC. Plus with couple of more upgrades at heroic, I don`t think you can stand up to that wit your 20 CA which you have spent so much on. I can just make a peltast group since I got the extra pop, that you just lost because you thought that your camel+CA combo would win for sure.

When you are doing a combo, don`t be alwayz sure that you are going to win with it. Also, just because I`m a rook, that don`t mean that I can`t micro-manage. HOw do you know, maybe I CAN micro-manage better than you!! Could happen, or it has been happenin for some time and you didn`t know it. Just because you were too noobish, when you first started the game don`t mean, rest of us are like that.(this comment for anyone who thinks noobs are bad players

Quoted from Elendil_King:

Why reinforce with Hoplites? The eggy guy will see your peltast and try to defend his CA with camels or slingers. If you go for a general purpose unit like the hoplite, you can beat both camels and slingers.

The thing is, Peltasts own both CA and slingers. I`m sure you have never seen a peltast destroy a slinger but trust me, it is pretty nasty. Plus those peltasts helps you ease up on the Hoplites, you shouldn`t make one kind of unit when you are facing a combo. You will most likely to get beaten by it(exception to RC VS Hipp+Toxotes, or Hoplites/Ulfsarks VS spears+slingers)

Hoplites should be your meatshield(main army), and the peltasts must be ur supplementary army which will take care of eggies CAs/slingers.

Quoted from Holy_Punk:

Even Zeus Hops cannot catch CA. They can stand up to it well and will win, but adding some Hipps will make things better.

I agree with Holy Punk about adding some hipps addition to ur hoplites.

Quoted from NIB:

To sum up, if you cant micro, just mass hoplites and you will be fine. If you can micro go for peltast+hoplites.

Just because you can`t micro, it doesn`t mean you shouldn`t try not to. If you can`t micro then you better learn how to micro if you want to get better at this game.

Quoted from Holy_Punk:

Psychologically pressure opponent - three kinds of units make him feel you are powerful (what would scare you more, pure Hops or Hops with Tox?).

There are exceptions to that actually. If he/she knows how powerful Zeus` Hoplites then I`m sure the enemy will be scared as hell.
Also if your opponent sees three kinds of units, he might think that, you are overusing your resources and you will collapse if he hits your supply lines. At most cases, he will win, because you used up all your resources on units and not upgrades to make the ones better than they already are.


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[This message has been edited by LoneWolf1 (edited 08-14-2003 @ 01:19 AM).]

Holy_Punk
Mortal
posted 14 August 2003 01:30 AM EDT (US)     25 / 29       
LoneWolf1 wrote

Quote:


There are exceptions to that actually. If he/she knows how powerful Zeus` Hoplites then I`m sure the enemy will be scared as hell. Also if your opponent sees three kinds of units, he might think that, you are overusing your resources and you will collapse if he hits your supply lines.

I was talking about particular battle, not winning the game in general. Three units make you look stronger, because
1. It makes opponent think of counting three units.
2. It makes opponent microing his units more, putting pressure on him.
3. It makes him think (hopefully not unreasonably) that you have three lines of units, for Greeks it means at least 9 buildings, giving him idea of how strong your economy is.
4. It just makes him a bit more nervious looking at different units. I don't mind pure Jarls or Hops. Having Jarls/TA or Hops/Tox slightly different story. I know that ain't going to be simple spamming of Prodromos or Hypastists for me, but actually choosing right counters in right proportion and microing them. More pressure.

And ,of course you are right, you have to protect your villies "at all costs". . However, if you are facing a good opponent he'll try to hit them anyway.

Holy Punk.

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