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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy Discussion » Osiris vs. Thoth -- legit Isis strategy?
Topic Subject:Osiris vs. Thoth -- legit Isis strategy?
posted 12 August 2003 06:36 PM EDT (US)         
I'm a newbie, but I've been reading the forum for a little while now. Mainly have just played against the AI and with my roommate over our LAN, so don't bite my head off if this wouldn't work online vs better opponents.

When playing with Egyptians, specifically Isis since he has both the Hathor + Thoth options which this strategy utilizes... I notice the general sentiment seems to be Osiris over Thoth, and Nephthys over Hathor.

I started experimenting with the Hathor-Thoth route, and wonder if any of you agree it may be better for online games.

- Myth unit: Osiris' (Mummy) is better than Thoth's (Phoenix), but neither are fantastic, and neither are the reason you pick that god.

- God power: Son of Osiris is clearly better than Meteor, although Meteor if used right I don't think is *that* bad of a god power.

- Technology: Here is where I feel Thoth destroys Osiris. Osiris' (Camels +20% speed, attack HP; two Pharoahs; Mummy upgrade; some boat damage upgrade) don't hold a candle to Valley of the Kings (Midgol units train 66% faster), and his other two techs (Elephants +20% HP, +10% attack; villagers +10% gold, wood, farming) are pretty solid as well.

Camels train in 9 seconds normally, according to the site, and Chariot Archers in 6 seconds. That's relatively fast as it is, but with the Valley of the Kings upgrade, you can train Camels in 3 seconds and a Chariot Archer in 2 *seconds*. That's lightning fast. With only 2-3 Strongholds, you can spit out a constant stream of Camels/Chariots faster as 4-6 barracks can spit out, say, Hoplites (14 secs per), and way faster than a few Hill Forts can make, say, Jarls + Huskarls. If you have a strong economy and can manage your army decently well, you should be able to run over anyone with that kind of training speed.

So my question really is, are Spears/Slingers + the critical Medjay upgrade of Hathor (which is why I chose him over Nephthys, who normally I'd agree is the superior god) enough to keep an opponent at bay until then? Essentially you need tons of gold, but not much else to spit out Mercs pretty quickly on the defensive, and then once you are able to start massing camels/chariots, you can go on the offensive.

So... no good? Medjay'd mercs + Spears/Slingers not enough to save an Egyptian player until Mythic and Thoth's merc-like Camels/Chariots?

And, strategy aside, what are people's thoughts on Osiris vs Thoth?

posted 12 August 2003 10:25 PM EDT (US)     1 / 11       
Well, if you think about it, Valley of the Kings isn't that great. You get 66% faster migdol units for 600G and 50F. I can research a tech that gives me 50% faster migdol units for 400G 0F. What tech is that? Build another Migdol. The migdol also fires at enemies.

Thoth's real tech is Book of Thoth.

Osiris' Desert Wind is probably better than the elephant techs because one is more likely to utilize lots of camels and they are more versatile (main unit and raider).

That said, I like Thoth too and go him probably 40% of the time.

Rating: Isis 1750, Ra 1700
"Ancestors last for a minute, but Crocs last forever..."
posted 13 August 2003 02:49 AM EDT (US)     2 / 11       
true enough, but your 50% faster by building an extra Midgol isn't quite correct--that's only assuming you are running with only one Midgol. By my figures, Valley of Kings is actually as if not more cost-efficient than simply building extra Midgols.

1 Midgol + VoK = 1000 G + 50 F
2 Midgols = 800 G

1 Midgol + VoK = 3 camels every 9 seconds
2 Midgols = 2 camels every 9 seconds

is the extra 200 G worth it? Maybe, probably, but let's call that one a wash. However, for every additional Midgol, it really becomes beneficial--because what are the chances you'll build only 1, really?

2 Midgols + VoK = 6 camels every 9 seconds
3 Midgols = 3 camels every 9 seconds

only 1 more Midgol, but you're pumping out double the troops... now THAT is for sure worth the extra 200 G.

3 Midgols + VoK = 9 camels every 9 seconds
4 Midgols = 4 camels every 9 seconds

so there IS a big difference... but maybe VoK is not reason enough to go Thoth.

posted 13 August 2003 03:03 AM EDT (US)     3 / 11       
It might be viable if you have one heck of a SOLID trade route. Most high-rating eggys stick with barracks units due to their low gold costs, especially when compared with Midgol units.
posted 13 August 2003 04:06 AM EDT (US)     4 / 11       
and not many games make it to mythic, and those that do dont last to long there or have been decided by that time.

so i dont know if it would be to good to rely on a myth tech to help you win.

you write that you would rely on rax units and mercs until mythic.
would that be upgraded rax units?
cause then you would have to upgrade both on rax and midgol and that is expensive.

and relying on mercs for defence will also cost quite a lot.

i also play egypt, but i only use mercs when i can see that a tc will be lost or a similar situation.
not for regular defence.

posted 13 August 2003 04:12 AM EDT (US)     5 / 11       


specifically Isis since he has both Hathor+Thoth

Isis is a girl!!!

posted 13 August 2003 09:51 AM EDT (US)     6 / 11       
Sounds like a pretty good strat, but I just want to know, don't Midgol Strongholds cost gold? I know HF's and Fortress' cost favour (5), don't Midgols too?
posted 13 August 2003 09:59 AM EDT (US)     7 / 11       
Well, if the game makes it to mythic, and you plan your gold income wisely, Thoth's Valley of the Kings can win you any fight!
Combined with the 2 conscription techs, Camels/Elephants/CAs build so fast that it is virtually impossible to attack your base as long as you have the money! I have pushed back assaults which would have killed an Osiris base quickly with this Tech - just by constantly non-stop clicking the Camels/CAs buttons until my opponent gave up.

Likewise, Elephants runs are far more efficient if you know the moment you free the pop you can instantly rebuild the counters to what your opponent slaughtered the Elephants with...

Master of unnecessary knowledge...
posted 13 August 2003 12:28 PM EDT (US)     8 / 11       
If I get to Mythic, and the game's won for me by then, I go Thoth. Meteor really helps destroying the last enemy buildings - and Elephants are good for finishing him off, too.

If it's not decided yet, I usually go Osiris. Son of Osiris is awesome and helps a lot, extra pharaoh boosts economy, and Desert Wind improves one of my best units. With good trade/mining, some Camels are a must, being a counter to archers and cavalry.

Solver, a proud Age community veteran.
The Jackal
posted 13 August 2003 08:04 PM EDT (US)     9 / 11       
Of the two, I definitely prefer Osiris. Let's break it down:

Book of Thoth vs. New Kingdom

The book gets you 10% more of whatever resource your villager is collecting, but a second Pharoah gets you 20% more of whatever resource he's empowering. Resources empowered by the pharoah effectively last longer, making that 6000 gold pile look more like 7200. Also, Your New Kingdom pharoah will help you mince MUs should you send him to the front. Overall, I have to like New Kingdom, since it's more flexible, and in Mythic, your economy's either working or it isn't. 10% more probably won't help you turn the corner.

Desert Wind vs. Tusks of Apedemak

I give this matchup to Desert Wind, hands down. Elephants are nice and all, but they're too slow and ponderous to do anything other than help your siege take down buildings faster. Besides, this is Mythic, and you're using catapults to level the enemy's capital.

Funeral Barge vs. Turtle

Here's where Thoth shows his muscle. If you're in a mythic water battle, it's time to end it, and put the opposing navy in his place. Only Posiedon is going to be able to field a unit that can take your turtles, everyone else just has to start spamming ramming ships and pray.

Mummy vs. Phoenix

Of these two highly expensive myth units, I definitely favor the Mummy. They're neck deep in cool, and make expensive enemy MUs and Fortress units vanish in a puff of flies, only to be replaced by an irksome ancestor. Only one or two will take some core units out of the enemy army, whereupon they'll continue to pitch in with some extra killpower. The phoenix, on the other hand, is a slow but mobile (and oxymoron, yet true) raiding unit, nothing more. Good for disrupting remote resource operations and running behind cover when a task force arrives to deal with it, but little else. Basically, Nidhogg light, suffering from all the same advantages and drawbacks.

Son of Osiris vs. Meteor

I'm going to break ranks here and say that I like Meteor better. I know SoO is an alarmingly powerful unit that will remove a great deal of the enemy's army, but you can't heal him and he's not that hard to destroy, and I spend an inordinate amount of my time trying to keep his dumb ass alive. Meteor, on the other hand, can kick a big hole into the enemy encampment, which, if properly followed up by a suitably hostile army, can end the game in a hurry.

Ultimately, however, I tend not to pick my gods based on their god powers, but on the upgrades and units they offer, since once you've used the GP, all you're left with is the upgrades.

posted 13 August 2003 09:57 PM EDT (US)     10 / 11       
Shouldn't your Midgols cost 360?

Because if you are using Hathor you can get Sun-dried mud bricks. Which makes buildings cost 15% less gold.

posted 14 August 2003 01:40 AM EDT (US)     11 / 11       
**Sounds like a pretty good strat, but I just want to know, don't Midgol Strongholds cost gold? I know HF's and Fortress' cost favour (5), don't Midgols too?**

Yes, I think they cost 10 FA.

**Book of Thoth vs. New Kingdom**

The Book of Thoth is a lot more beneficial, if you are not playing against a civ that is making strong MUs at mythic.

New Kingdom might be better, when you need one pharaoh at the market and the other one at the battlefield attackin/healin.

**Desert Wind vs. Tusks of Apedemak**

Desert Wind sounds like better deal. It helps you improve those camels to the max. +20% more HP, speed and attack sounds quite nice. Like they said, you got catapults as siege in mythic.`

**Funeral Barge vs. Turtle**

Not many naval combat occurs during mythic because people need the pop to attack/defend against enemy. But in this case, those cheap turtles would dominate the sea. Food isn`t much of a problem during mythic, especially for eggy.

**Mummy vs. Phoenix**

A really hard choice here. Against norse, I wouldn`t mind having couple of Phoenixes at the front but Mummies are quite nice for getting extra nasty ancestors to turn the tide of the fight, and for that I would go wit the mummy.

**Son of Osiris vs. Meteor**

I really don`t need rocks fallin from the sky to devstate an area and get fixed afterwards. I would pick SOO in this case, because even if it is after a big battle, if my SOO is alive, he can also heal my units until I can bring additional priests to do that.

I need to find a way to use my SOO better though, but I would still pick SOO over Meteor any day.

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