You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Strategy Discussion

Hop to:    
loginhomeregisterhelprules
Bottom
Topic Subject: A Guide to the Phoenix
« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
posted 26 August 2003 04:04 PM EDT (US)   
A Guide to The Phoenix

Most people know the Phoenix as the fiery bird who rose from the ashes and was born again. A symbol of immortality and life after death.

In Age of Mythology, we know the Phoenix as a slow, expensive, loud, Norse killing flying unit that is killed easily by ranged units.

I have always been interested in Phoenixes as soon as I encountered them in the game. They are one of the more "interesting" units because of the ability to be re-born from an egg wherever the Phoenix dies.
But I think there are more to Phoenixes than just MUs that attack ground units and die to ranged units.
I have done a few tests to show how to use Phoenixes to their full potential, and more importantly, how NOT to use them.

First, let's look at their stats:

Phoenix
Cost: 200 gold, 30 favour, 5 pop spaces
HP: 400
Speed: 3.60
Hack Armour: 15%
Pierce Armour: 55%
Hack Damage: 30
Crush Damage: 30

So in general, quite slow, good attack, nice armour, but expensive in favour and population.
The small unit window shows it's main attack as crush damage. I found this strange since it says nothing about doing well against buildings in it's description or details.

I decided to do some tests to see how well they did against an un-upgraded Greek house.

Test 1: 1 Phoenix vs 1 Greek house

House stats:
HP: 450
Hack Armour: 30%
Crush Armour: 5%

Phoenix deals approximately 50 damage each hit.
Phoenix takes 27 seconds to destroy the house in 6 hits.

So what does this mean? The Phoenix has an attack of 30 hack damage and 30 crush damage, but then why does it do around 50 damage to a building?
Does this mean that Phoenixes have a secret bonus against buildings? Or is it a bug? To find out, we need to test the Phoenix against a human unit.

Test 2: 1 Phoenix vs 1 Spearman (un-upgraded)

Spearman stats:
70 HP
7 Hack damage
40% Hack armour
20% Pierce armour

Phoenix deals approximately 28 damage each hit
Phoenix take 10 seconds to kill spearman in 3 hits. (This is because spearman tries to avoid the attack by moving to a different position)

So the Phoenix is strong against buildings and human units. But in time/HP ratio, it is stronger against buildings. But why?

Because we have not been told about any bugs or bonuses with the Phoenix, I wondered if the Phoenix does both Hack AND Crush damage to a building.
The logic works like this:

Hack attack (30) + Crush attack (30) = Final attack (60)

Final attack VS Greek house

Final attack - Greek house's final armour (35%) =
60 - 21 = 39

So why was the final attack against the house 50?

I am coming to the conclusion that there must be a bonus against buildings that we haven't been told about that, either that or my maths is terrible

Anyway, back to the Phoenix compared to other units. Because they can only be attacked by ranged units, they seemed to be the best units to test it 1 on 1 using the basic ranged unit for each culture.

Test 3: 1 Phoenix vs 1 Toxote

Toxote deals Phoenix 3 damage per hit
Phoenix deals toxote 27 damage per hit

Phoenix kills toxote in 3 hits

Quite obvious really, 1 toxote isn't going to harm the Phoenix too much. Add in a ranged hero though and it's toast for the Phoenix

Test 4: 1 Phoenix vs 1 Chariot archer

Chariot archer deals Phoenix 5 damage per hit
Phoenix deals chariot archer 22 damage per hit

Phoenix kills chariot archer in 5 hits.

Again, not really a surprise, but the CA was better than the toxote. But they are more expensive. Have them massed though and a Phoenix would be easy for them

Test 5: 1 Phoenix vs 1 Throwing axeman

Throwing axemen deals Phoenix 5 damage per hit.
Phoenix deals throwing axeman 21 damage per hit.

Phoenix kills throwing axeman in 6 hits

Best of the three. Cheap, easy to mass and high in hack armour. So then why do the Norse have such a problem with Phoenixes?
Because they have no ranged heros and weaker buildings basically. The only things the Norse can attack Phoenixes with are attack buildings, TAs and ballistae.

One thing I haven't mentioned about the Phoenix is the fact they have splash damage. From my greek house tests (three next together) I've found that the Phoenix does approximately 10-15 splash damage to any building next to the building or unit where it is attacking.

Compared to the other Mythic MUs, the Phoenix may not seem the ideal unit to have. Avengers do VERY well against human units, quite well against MUs and Mummies speak for themselves with their special attack.

Compare the Avenger to the Phoenix against buildings however, it's a different story.

Test 6: 1 Avenger vs 1 Greek house

Avenger deals 20 damage to house each hit.
Avenger takes 23 seconds to destroy house in 23 hits.

It's attack is MUCH faster than the Phoenix (1 attack per second!!!), but it is no where near as good as the Phoenix is at destroying buildings. But then again, Avengers were designed to attack melee units, which it excels at, and the Phoenix was designed for......everything except ranged units and ranged heros I suppose.

Conclusion:

Expensive, loud, slow, no upgrades.
All true, but then look at the pros.
Great building killers, only attacked by ranged units, can be summoned from an egg in the middle of a battle.

As Isis, waiting until Mythic to cast Eclipse could let you destroy a whole forward base if cast with some massed Phoenixes. Although this strategy would be expensive and risky, it would be extremely useful, especially against the Norse (until the X-Pack comes )

I hope you've learned some new information about the Phoenix, and if you haven't, I'm very sorry about wasting 5 minutes of your time for making you read my article
And that I hope you'll use Phoenixes more in games on ESO (just keep them away from ranged heroes!!!)

And if anyone can answer the question why Phoenixes do so well against building without a bonus, I would love to hear it

EDIT: I have used damage per hit because it is way too hard to calculate damage per second. Like with lots of units in AoM, the Phoenix doesn't attack every second (unlike the Avenger) so I've used damage per hit as a rough guide on their attack.
Also, thanks to some help from the mind people here, and a "Eureka" moment, I realised what I did wrong when calculating the armour and attack. The armour and attacks are seperate, so it does do the attack I said - the armour. Hooray


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

[This message has been edited by ArtemisChimera (edited 08-29-2003 @ 05:19 AM).]

Replies:
posted 26 August 2003 04:34 PM EDT (US)     1 / 32  

Quote:

And if anyone can answer the question why Phoenixes do so well against building without a bonus, I would love to hear it

Cause they do crush dmg as well as hack.


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

posted 26 August 2003 04:47 PM EDT (US)     2 / 32  

Quote:

Final attack - Greek house's final armour (35%) =
60 - 21 = 39

So why was the final attack against the house 50?


You subtracted the house's hack armor from the entire attack. You should only subtract it from the hack attack. So the total damage per second should be 30 + 30*(1.00-0.35) = 30 + 20 = 50, which is what it does.

A little known fact about the Phoenix: the respawn egg will be placed as long as the ground below the Phoenix is empty. This means that often, if a Phoenix dies over a battle, you'll miss the egg, so you should try to keep them to the side somehow.

Also: towers get a large bonus vs. flying units. (Forts don't however). While Phoenixes do well vs most buildings, don't try them against towers.


Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.

[This message has been edited by Matei (edited 08-26-2003 @ 04:48 PM).]

posted 26 August 2003 05:02 PM EDT (US)     3 / 32  
i'm confused.
but all in all its a nice article.

People with creative minds can create their own signatures, unlike me.
posted 26 August 2003 06:32 PM EDT (US)     4 / 32  

Quote:

Phoenix deals approximately 50 damage each hit.
Phoenix takes 27 seconds to destroy the house in 6 hits.


Quote:

Avenger deals 20 damage to house each hit.
Avenger takes 23 seconds to destroy house in 23 hits.


Quote:

It's attack is MUCH faster than the Phoenix (1 attack per second!!!), but it is no where near as good as the Phoenix is at destroying buildings.

Didn't you contradict yourself? The Phoenix takes 27 seconds to destroy a house while the Avenger does it in 23. It seems irrelevant how many "hits" it takes.

The problem with Phoenixes as building killers is that most buildings worth killing shoot back. Towers kill it quickly (with bonus) and TC's and castle type pack a wallop. The phoenix will die before it can destory the building.


I'd be interested in knowing how far the splash damage goes against human units. Does it roughly correlate with the graphics? Is it bigger? Is it smaller?


AOM:TT Nick:CADENtheCRUEL, CADENtheBLUE
Rating: Isis 1750, Ra 1700
"Ancestors last for a minute, but Crocs last forever..."
posted 26 August 2003 06:53 PM EDT (US)     5 / 32  
yeah they do crush armor.I like that smashing sound of crush attack i.e mountain giant smashing his club on a building

|My Site|Recs|SaM|-Fenrir_Ghost - Matches - Challenge Me
I am life.I am luxury.I am the envy, that brings such ugly.I dont have a two-way, nor a cell-phone.My thoughts do not touch yourself alone.I am society.I strive to be the positive inside me.My opinion's are lively, used to describe me.Look at your negative, and how you live it.Dismiss the explicit in your mind and visit the bright side of community, and how you enrich it.
I am the Luxuries of Life, therefor my Life is Luxury
posted 26 August 2003 07:25 PM EDT (US)     6 / 32  
Can Nidhogg fight other flying units?

I didn't know that only towers got the bonus vs flying units, I thought tc's & forts also got it, so that's a good little tidbit to know, thanks



posted 26 August 2003 08:19 PM EDT (US)     7 / 32  
Your numbers are all jacked for the simple fact that all attacks are per second, not per hit. It has also been shown that units with slow attack animations- SOO, Greek siege, etc. do less damage per second than they should....
posted 26 August 2003 10:00 PM EDT (US)     8 / 32  
I think that's why he chose to list damage as per hit. The Phoenix is very slow and thus possibly not listed correctly. He has the important information which is how long it takes to destroy a house. From there you can compare damage/second.

AOM:TT Nick:CADENtheCRUEL, CADENtheBLUE
Rating: Isis 1750, Ra 1700
"Ancestors last for a minute, but Crocs last forever..."
posted 27 August 2003 01:31 AM EDT (US)     9 / 32  
To Luther:

The pesky can fight against other flying units and strongest of them all in AOM.(Not in AOMX!!)

That pesk kills phoenixes with ease and can outrun them quite easily. I'm not sure how fast the roc is but the pesk should be able to chase after them! They can also be Loki's best defence at home!

Good Post, but the gold is sometimes scarce during mythic and food and favour would be a lot more reliable. So gettin Avengers might be a better idea as Set(since he can pick between Thoth and Horus)


Proud Member of the FANG CLAN
ESO NAMES:LoneWolf1, Stryder1, RazorFang
Contact me from LoneWolf1_@hotmail.com

I'm Turkish and proud of it

posted 27 August 2003 02:34 AM EDT (US)     10 / 32  
It takes 6 phoenixes to kill a Nidhogg. Probably if you micro well you could do it with less. Its because of the lousy hack armor (15%). Makes it an easy target for throwing axemen.

I am always disappointed when I make them because they just don't deliver. Maybe the only thing they are really good for is raiding wood choppers and miners, or perhaps on defense if your opponent has gone really heavy with non-ranged units (quite possible vs Poseidon for example). But mostly they aren't worth it. I make them anyway sometimes since they look so cool. Maybe you'll get lucky and panic the opponent...

posted 27 August 2003 03:22 AM EDT (US)     11 / 32  
Artemis you can try Phoenix vs. Chiron(Hypollita) I wonder what will happen really
posted 27 August 2003 06:27 AM EDT (US)     12 / 32  
I actually realised the mistakes I made in the article this morning

The 2 attacks are seperate which makes the 2 armours seperate, not combined. This means that my findings actually worked. Hooray

With the Avenger, it destroys the house quicker than a Phoenix, but it's not as powerful. Using more than 1 Phoenix to attack buildings is more sensible than using more than 1 Avenger because they should be attacking human units.

Quote:

Your numbers are all jacked for the simple fact that all attacks are per second, not per hit. It has also been shown that units with slow attack animations- SOO, Greek siege, etc. do less damage per second than they should....

Like Caden said, I tried this but it's really hard to work out the attack per second because they don't attack per second. Slow units make it harder to calculate attack rates. The Avenger attacks once every second, so it's easier to work out. The Phoenix attacks every 3-4 seconds so working out it's attack in damage done per second is pointless.

Quote:

Artemis you can try Phoenix vs. Chiron(Hypollita) I wonder what will happen really

I actually did a test with Phoenix vs Hippolyta, but didn't add it into the article.

Here's what I found:

Hippolyta deals Phoenix 57 damage per hit
Phoenix deals Hippolyta 13 damage per hit

Hippolyta takes 16 seconds to kill Phoenix in 7 hits


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

posted 28 August 2003 09:14 PM EDT (US)     13 / 32  
Very Interesting...

Yeah, making an analysis on attack ratings is ridiculously hard in AOM because lot has to do with seconds, and wierd decimals and stuff. Theattack listed in some simulation programs similar to SoM do in fact use attack per second but the regular attack ratings for units in AOM are per hit. Think about it- a colossus attacks what, like once every 2 seconds? Clossies do 50 (crush) damage. That means that they would do 100 damage per hit. No way. The attack ratings listed are definately per hit. Anyway, its obvious, just look at your unit's attack when they are fighting. Each hit, it does the amount of damage shown (of course, it is reduced by armor).

THE ULTIMATE BEST WAY TO USES PHOENIXES:
If your enemy has lots of tree walls (forests providing a natural barrier) bring some Phoenies in and have them attack guys near the trees. AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, sweet environmental destruction...


I told you I'd be back.
posted 28 August 2003 09:18 PM EDT (US)     14 / 32  
The phoenix is actually a better house destroyer than an avenger if the houses are grouped together. The avenger will destroy the first house the fastest but the second and third houses he will lose. Remember the poenix does splash damage so it would be attacking 3 or so at once. Someone should test this theory.
posted 28 August 2003 09:31 PM EDT (US)     15 / 32  
to luther

umm ya nidhogg can attack like all units i think as can any flying unit that attacks so like all 2 of them :P but its weird because there attack animations are the same so nidhogg attacking a flying unit still breaths its fire straight down and so does the pheonixes. its quite funny to watch really.

oh and thatnx for this article it got me thinking and i think i am going to try a pheonix-ancestors-eclipse thingy. cause that would really kill em


Death Comes Quikly in Space, unless it comes very slowly - Time Magazine
posted 28 August 2003 10:47 PM EDT (US)     16 / 32  
Avenger destroys the house sooner, that really settles it right there for me. Phoenix's only for either fun or if the game is already decided.

The following statement is true. The previous statement is false.
posted 28 August 2003 10:52 PM EDT (US)     17 / 32  
rofl the damages are per second, not per attack
posted 29 August 2003 00:36 AM EDT (US)     18 / 32  
I think Phoenix is a good unit to harrass the enemy with. I always use them for diversions and hit-and-run-tactics. It's loud noise is enough to draw enemy's attention. have 2 or 3 of them drawing enemy's range support from their town, then ambush those range unit with hoplite, spearman, or ulfsark, while you seige the town. Even if you can't over-run their town in one attack, you can still use phoenix to delay enemy's pursuing force while you make a run for your own town
posted 29 August 2003 06:55 AM EDT (US)     19 / 32  

Quote:

Also: towers get a large bonus vs. flying units. (Forts don't however). While Phoenixes do well vs most buildings, don't try them against towers.

is it vs all flying units??

I know they do bonus damage vs nidhogg, but I didn't know it does vs other flying units too. Are you sure about this??

posted 29 August 2003 07:37 AM EDT (US)     20 / 32  
Nice article. But I still get disappointed whenever I use Phoenixes. It feels like they are not fully worth their high cost. They look really nice, though.

All attacks in AoM are per second. Units do not loose hit points per second, but the listed attacks will be multiplied if a unit attacks slower. For example, if a Phoenix would attack every 1.5 seconds, it would deal 30 x 1.5 = 45 crush/hack damage per hit.

I don't think a Phoenix does both hack and crush damange to buildings. That would make no sense.

posted 29 August 2003 08:26 AM EDT (US)     21 / 32  

Quoted from ArtemisChimera:


With the Avenger, it destroys the house quicker than a Phoenix, but it's not as powerful. Using more than 1 Phoenix to attack buildings is more sensible than using more than 1 Avenger because they should be attacking human units.

Umm... if the Avenger excels at fighting melee units but still does better at fighting buildings than the phoenix, is it then really sensible to use phoenixes over Avengers against buildings, just because phoenixes suck against melee units?

The splash damage argument is another thing (and not part of your arguing). Not that I would consider it useful to use phoenixes because of that, because as Caden says most buildings are defended by other buildings (or themselves), and the slow speed of phoenixes will make them reach their intended target way later. If you factor in the time to get there as well, avenger will have no problems destroying even several buildings before the phoenix does.

Quoted from SilverOsirisAOM:


Yeah, making an analysis on attack ratings is ridiculously hard in AOM because lot has to do with seconds, and wierd decimals and stuff.

That makes it difficult for you? Actually, it is quite easy, because the game itself provides a perfect means of measurement for you: the clock which is toggled by pressing the F11 key.

I have run lots of simulations using self-drawn maps. All you need to do is using a repeated trigger that quickly gives your target unit like 1000 baccanalia upgrades (yes, that can be done) so that it has enough hitpoints to survive heavy punishment. Have your intended attacker attack the target unit and playtest the scenario. Hit Pause and write down the clock time and the target hit points. Unpause the game and go watching TV for a few minutes. Then come back, pause again, note target hp and time on the clock again, and divide the hp lost by the seconds elapsed. You'll get the precise damage done per second.

The only annoying thing is the random factor that is applied to every single hit. For that reason, it doesn't suffice to test for just ten seconds, because one hit may do 3 damage, while the next does 7. What you want to know is the average damage per second done (that is also the damage listed in all known lists, as well as in the game itself, although most attack values listed in the game are wrong due to bugs ES doesn't seem to be willing to fix). By running the test over a longer period of time (a few minutes at least), the random deviances will average out, and you will get pretty accurate data.

Quoted from SilverOsirisAOM:


The attack ratings listed are definately per hit.

Nope, they aren't. Check out the damage done by e.g. Greek petroboli. They do way more damage per attack than listed for two reasons. First they shoot more than one projectile per attack, and second every single projectile does more damage than listed for a petrobolos. However, the listed damage for a petrobolos is the actual damage per second done by one petrobolos projectile, the petrobolos shoots only every few seconds, so a single projectile impact must do the damage for more than one second, and that is what is does.

Quoted from SilverOsirisAOM:


Anyway, its obvious, just look at your unit's attack when they are fighting. Each hit, it does the amount of damage shown (of course, it is reduced by armor).

I wonder whether you have actually done that yourself. By looking at your unit's attack during combat you can see pretty little because of the random factor that modifies the damage of every single hit. What you consider obvious is actually not the case. The only way to get to accurate data leads through the hassle of running reasonable tests.

posted 29 August 2003 09:15 PM EDT (US)     22 / 32  
Ok dood im just guna forgeght abowt al that ---- yo just gav mei- i raly dont caer. Mostle bekuz of wut yu sed in yor post abowt the cloc!!!! THAR IS RILLY A CLOK?????????????????? F11??????? KOOL. Ima gon tri it. I hav AOM oepen rite nou...

I told you I'd be back.
posted 29 August 2003 09:28 PM EDT (US)     23 / 32  
Doesn't it say something in the Code of Conduct about English only....

If intelligence is defined as the ability to learn things, isn't it rather embarrassing with adults that can't spell?

-EmJay

posted 29 August 2003 10:48 PM EDT (US)     24 / 32  
sry

I told you I'd be back.
posted 30 August 2003 05:06 AM EDT (US)     25 / 32  
Whoa SilverOsiris! Were you drunk? Or is that just you sober and you're drunk the rest of the time?

ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

« Previous Page  1 2  Next Page »
Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy Discussion » A Guide to the Phoenix
Top
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register
Hop to:    
Age of Mythology Heaven | HeavenGames