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Topic Subject: Myth Unit Ratings
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posted 03 February 2004 10:53 AM EDT (US)   
MU Ratings
By ManticoreKiller

Hi,
Iím new on the forum and this is my first post/article. Iíve had AOM for about one year now and I still find new things to admire. This was re-emphasised when I finally got the Titans X-pack a month ago. For me, the biggest Ďwowí factor in AOM was and still is the Myth Units. It is however, a fact that in the Ďoldí AOM, the Mus were too expensive to use online. This changed with the X-pack which cut MU costs across the board. MUs are now an important part of AOM gameplay rather than an expensive Ďcoolí icon. Iíve always wanted to compare the MUs to find the best ones in as scientific a manner as possible. In this article, my aim is to provide the AOM community with the most exhaustive MU ratings system attempted. After weeks of messing around, I finally got a fair mathematical model to test MUs with. Before I actually get into the ratings, Iíd like to make how I rate the MUs as clear as possible. . The ratings are based on MU scores. Furthermore, all MUs considered have been upgraded with their Myth Upgrades. I did this because I cannot overemphasise the importance of MU specific Myth Upgrades. They are usually cheaper than the MU itself and most of them have a HUGE impact on its performance and its score. MUs are rated based on age- so we wonít have (for example) any Classical Age MUs competing with any Mythic ones. Finally, Greek MUs are Poseidon, Egyptians Set, Norse Odin and Atlantean Oranos for testing purposes. The score for a particular MU is basically a sum of three things-

Combat Score: This score is derived based on the MUís performance in a series of 5 tests. They are-
1. 1MU vs 3 unupgraded Zeus Hoplites
2. 1MU vs 3 unupgraded Toxotes
3. 1MU vs 2 Dryads
4. 15/16 population worth of MUs vs 4 Zeus Hoplites, 4 Toxotes and 1 Sentry Tower
5. 1MU vs 1 Sentry Tower
During each test, the Time (in seconds) for the MU to complete the test, % of hitpoints lost (range 0-1) and the Success Factor (1 if the MU passes the test and fraction of the test completed if it dies before passing it).
Once all these are taken down, the score for that test is calculated using the formula-

Score[TestNumber]=(SuccessFactor+Balance)/(Time+(10*%hp lost))*100

Here Balance is a number (Range 0-0.3) which is set to a value reflecting the usefulness of the MU special attack or ability. For example, MUs which can instantly kill all non hero units (ex Medusae) have a balance of 0.3. Iíll explain any positive balances when I come to them in the ratings themselves but by default, this value is 0. Ranged units not expected to kill buildings are compensated by a range score (coming up). Also, in test 5, ranged units are given a maximum of 100 seconds to destroy the building failing which a success factor based on the hitpoints lost by the building is calculated. Furthermore, for flying units, infantry and the dryads are walled off to prevent them from running away and thus skewing the scores. Once the MU registers a score on all 5 tests, a combat score is calculated by adding them up Ė
CombatScore=Score[1]+Score[2]/2+Score[3]+Score[4]*2+Score[5]/2

The halving or doubling of particular scores are to make sure each test has equal significance in the final score. For example, quite a few MUs can take out 3 toxotes (Test[2]) in less than 10 seconds. This would give them a score in Test[2] of about 12-14. On average, most MUs take 20-25 secs to complete Test[1] (vs 3 Zeus Hoplites). They would get a score of 4-6. Thus, all scores are made to range between 0 and 8 by this system without losing any of the tests their importance.

Value Score: The value score of a Myth Unit reflects its value in terms of resources. It is derived mathematically-
Value Score= 2500/(Rescource Cost+(Favour Cost + Population Cost)*10)

The resource cost is its cost in Food, Wood and/or Gold multiplied by a weightage. Food and Gold are required for infantry and age advancemet so they are multiplied by 1.5. Wood is not so important so it is multiplied by 1. This generally ranges from 0-8.

Range Score: This score rewards MUs for ranged attacks (not special attacks). It is basically a quarter of the MUs attack range.
Range Score= Range/4

Now, Lets get to the ratings. Please note that specialist MUs like naval MUs, Caladria, Scarabs and Behemoths were not included in these ratings-

Classical Age Myth Units

The results of this age were a real surprise to me but in retrospect, the best unit won.

1.Hieracosphinx
Combat Score-18.50496473, Value Score-6.57, Range Score-0
Total Score-25.07496473

This is one unit where upgrades have made a huge difference. I tested a sphinx upgraded with both available upgrades. It won this age without any Balance bonuses. It performed excellently in all areas excelling against ranged units (test 2), other MUs (test 3) and buildings. Its special attack is very powerful for a classical MU. In addition, it is very fast, has good hp, great armour and is fairly cheap. The only minus is its 4 population slots. It truly deserves its first place.

2. Giant Killer Einherjar
Combat Score-18.4252429, Value Score-5.65, Range Score-0
Total Score-24.0752429

I gave this unit a 0.15 Balance Bonus (see score calculations) because of its special ability. This ability is particularly strong with groups. This ability has added significance in AOMX because it can boost the Titanís attack to 103 when grouped with it. This unit is excellent against buildings plus it topped test2 (vs archers). It has decent hp and armour. The only reason this is not number 1 is its poor speed and the fact that, like most Norse MUs, it is slightly on the expensive side.

3. Shieldmaiden Valkyrie
Combat Score-19.25340277, Value Score-4.8, Range Score-0
Total Score-24.05340377

The upgrade makes this unit a real infantry, and archer killer because it increases it attack by 50%. Its ability to heal other units gives it a 0.25 Balance bonus. Due to this, the Valkyrie actually managed a higher combat score than the Sphinx. Its heavy armour ratings and hp were a real plus. The one thing that denied this unit the winnerís spot was its poor value score and its weakness vs buildings.

4. Hammartroll
Combat Score-12.4202069, Value Score-7.36, Range Score-4
Total Score-23.78020269

The performance of this unit really surprised me. Its biggest USP is its value score which really puts this unit ahead of 4 other units with scores between 23 and 24. Its awesome performance in test 3 (vs MUs) is the biggest contributor to its combat score. It also gets a 0.1 Balance bonus on its ability to heal itself based on the damage it causes. It also has decent HP and armor. A minus is its slow speed. It emerges as the best classical ranged MU.

5. Elder Cyclops
Combat Score-19.40841115, Value Score-4.06, Range Score-0
Total Score-23.46841115

Firstly, the Elder Cyclops is OP, no doubt about that. No surprise then, that it tops the combat scores albeit by a narrow margin. It excels vs buildings. Its special- an instant kill vs human units only gets a 0.1 Balance bonus because it takes too long during which the Cyclops is very vulnerable. Its also too slow to be effective in groups. It represents horrible value with is huge cost. In short, good in patches but not all round.

6. Warrior Automaton
Combat Score-12.77189759, Value Score-10.63, Range Score-0
Total Score-23.40189759

The classical Atlantean MUs seem to be designed with value in mind. Looking at the huge value score this one gets, its easy to believe. Also, for a unit that takes only 2 pop slots, it has decent combat stats. It does well vs MUs and archers. It has great hp (for a 2 pop unit) and great armour. Its amazing special ability (to heal other Automatoi) and also to bring others back to life earns it a 0.2 Balance bonus. It topped the group test (test 4) where I could use as many as 8. Actually, this is my favourite classical MU.

7. Guardian Anubite
Combat Score-16.22237969, Value Score-7.08, Range Score-0
Total Score-23.30237969

The Anubite excels in fast surgical strikes especially vs infantry and archers. Itís performance vs buildings is what brought this one down. Itís low hp and armour ratings also means that it takes more damage than it should. Its special, though useful, is not enough to qualify for a Balance bonus.

8. Bull Minotaur
Combat Score-16.08561401, Value Score-6.17, Range Score-0
Total Score-22.25561401

Think of this as a more expensive, less powerful, slower Einherjar with a less useful special. Look at its rank. Put two and two together. There you go.

9. Wadjet
Combat Score-10.95096, Value Score-7.08, Range Score-4
Total Score-22.03096

This did better than I expected, particularly vs archers and infantry. Not bad given the low expectations I had. I gave it a 0.1 bonus because of its hp regeneration.

10. Promethean (with Alluvial Clay)
Combat Score-9.5949446, Value Score-10.63, Range Score-0
Total Score-20.22494446

Cheap. Full Stop. Good vs buildings , bad vs anything else. Really crappy hp and armour. The next patch adds +3 crush damage so Iíll take another look then. I have one question though- why give a unit a capability vs buildings but subsequently destroy that by giving it just 25% pierce armour? To be fair, I even considered the combined hp of the two offspring while calculating %hp lost.

11. Centaur Ptolemarch
Combat Score-7.865635194, Value Score-7.14, Range Score-3
Total Score-18.005635194

Only decent vs archers. Too weak to be competitive. Good for raiding. Crappy range too.

Heroic Age Myth Units
The results of this section ran a lot more to form. With only one real surprise, everything added up really well. This is how the heroic MUs stack up-

1. Petsuchos Ra
Combat Score-17.21906546, Value Score-6.41, Range Score-6.5
Total Score-30.12906546

No Surprise. This unit has it all. Range, killer damage, value, reasonable hp and armour, 100% accuracy, and even some crush damage to kill buildings with. Monster range lets it attack defensive structures without getting counter attacked. Need I say more. Its actually a good 2 points in front of its nearest rival. OP- you bet!

2. Hydra
Combat Score-24.62857, Value Score 3.54, Range Score-0
Total Score-28.16857

The real issue with this unit was whether to test the 1 headed hydra or to go with the full 5 heads. I eventually (rightly, I think) settled for the former because growing extra heads is not an upgrade, itís a special ability. To make up for that, I gave it a 0.2 Balance bonus. Had I gone in for the 5 headed version, I have no doubt that it would have won this age as well as beaten all the Mythic MUs. One very important point to remember is that a hydra grows 4 extra heads by killing 12 units in combat. Unless they were all villies (bully!) or weak human units, itís almost certain that the hydra in question would sustain a considerable amount of damage. Since Greeks who take anything but Apollo in Heroic have no means of healing damaged units, a 5 headed hydra would not have much hp available. Be that as it may, even with just 1 head, the hydra is a sensational melee combat unit. Itís good against everything. Its only weaknesses are its cost and its slow speed. Incidentally, in the group test (test 4), one of the 3 hydras grew a second head.

3. Nemean Rex
Combat Score-22.5364135, Value Score-3.82, Range Score-0
Total Score-26.3564135

After a poor showing in the Classical ratings, the Greeks are roaring back, quite literally! This is the one surprise unit in the Heroic ratings. I always figured this was a kind of poorer sister to the Norse Battle Boar. It even beat that much favoured unit. Itís only downside is its expense in terms of gold. It ruled archers (test 2) thanks to its monster armour levels (the upgrade talking again). It did very well vs infantry (test 1), MUs (test 3) and even buildings thanks to its crush damage. Itís special attack is pretty powerful vs weaker units. It really surprised me.

4. Stymphalian Bird
Combat Score-17.55421826, Value Score-4.9, Range Score-3.75
Total Score-26.20421826

I expected this unit to do well but not quite as well as this. It has great range, attack and even hp. More importantly, it flies- a feature which earns it a 0.1 Balance bonus. It even beat the much stronger Phoenix (see the Mythic Ratings) in overall score. Itís not as expensive as it seems because most of the cost is wood. What came as a pleasant surprise is its reasonable ability vs weak buildings. On the whole, not bad at all.

5. Battle Boar
Combat Score-21.88730999, Value Score-3.65, Range Score-0
Total Score-25.53730999

This unitís special attack is a problem as it disperses target units. On the whole, it performs well enough against everything. It specifically performs very well vs archers and buildings. It has good hp, mythic level armour ratings and good speed. All in all a good performance but not as good as I thought it would be. Its still my favourite Heroic MU though.

6. Scorpion Man
Combat Score-19.11299, Value Score-6.09, Range Score-0
Total Score-25.202999

Average score for an eminently average unit. Good vs weak human units, poor vs buildings, great value (wood only). The special attack is just too weak.

7. Frost Giant of Thrym
Combat Score-19.84831757, Value Score-4.38, Range Score-0
Total Score-24.22831757

Before screaming at the injustice, note that it only lost out to the Scorpion Man due to its poor value. On the whole a good combat unit with a great special which earned it a 0.15 Balance Bonus. Good hp and armour. The upgrade (Rime) really improved the base unit. I really believe that ES should look at making this a 4 pop unit. Its 5 pop slots as well as its slow speed also counted against it.

8. Mountain Giant
Combat Score-20.16901289, Value Score-3.2, Range Score-0
Total Score-23.36901289

Really terrible value makes this lose out big time. Its great vs buildings and archers but thatís all. Too slow to be effective.

9. Manticore
Combat Score-13.5021, Value Score-4.23, Range Score-3.5
Total Score-21.2321

Not as bad as itís ranking suggests. Itís good in groups. Solid ranged support. Just too expensive (even in wood) for what it does.

10. Satyr
Combat Score-9.85177, Value Score-5.58, Range Score-4
Total Score-19.43177

Good value and ok vs MUs. Other than that, even with the Gemino upgrade, donít ask. To get further confirmation as to how bad it actually is read ArtemisChimeraís guide.

Mythic Age Myth Units
This is it, the crŤme de la crŤme of AOM. The top 5 are covered by less than 1 score point. I would like to point out that instant kill MUs generally have a weak normal attack. That is why I have used more than one enemy in all the tests for all the units in AOM. Things really do balance out.

1. Fire Giant
Combat Score-25.87283982, Value Score-3.29, Range Score-3.5
Total Score-32.66283982

Good at everything, weak at nothing. Expensive, but so is a Ferrari. Iíll take that. I donít think the Ė5 crush damage announced in the new patch will have much of an impact on its score, but given how close things are at the top, it will almost certainly lose itís top ranking.

2. Guardian Of Io (Argus with upgrade)
Combat Score-28.8745867, Value Score-3.7, Range Score-0
Total Score-32.5745687

Hard to believe but post 1.02 patch this innocuous looking blob could well be the meanest MU in AOM. Instant killer (0.3 Balance Bonus) which has a good normal attack as well. Hitpoints may seem low but armour is really good. Good value too. Can even do ok vs buildings. The upgrade gives it the fastest recharging instant kill attack in AOM.

3. Avenger
Combat Score-28.6793532, Value Score-3.49, Range Score-0
Total Score-32.1693532

Exceptional combat unit does really well vs everything. It did as well as I thought it would do. Whirling special attack is really good against groups of enemies.

4. Chimera Tyrant
Combat Score-28.94120712, Value Score-3.16, Range Score-0
Total Score-32.10120712

This actually got the highest combat score ever and it surprised the hell out of me. Rips apart anything you care to throw at it. The upgrade is HUGE as it increases its attack and special attack by 30% not to mention its hp to 960. Best upgrade in the game. Full Stop. Massed(as I found out in test 4) the special attack is like a mass instant kill, believe me, its that good. Slightly let down by a very high gold cost even though it takes just 4 pop. Wow!

5. Mummy Vizier
Combat Score-24.88904378, Value Score-4.17, Range Score-3
Total Score-31.06904378

This did very well indeed for a unit which, without itís special, canít even kill a Wadjet. And what a special! Instant kill (0.3 Balance Bonus) and a free meatshield as well as combat unit. It was the minions that did the building killing in the group test (test 4). After AOMX, very good value as well.

6. Medusa Matriarch
Combat Score-23.94031655, Value Score- 3.35, Range Score-2.5
Total Score-29.791031655
Straightforward instant kill (0.3 Balance bonus) MU with a reasonable normal attack. Would have competed with the top 5 if I had considered the monstrous rage upgrade. Very expensive when compared to the Mummy.

7. Lampades
Combat Score-23.47557, Value Score-3.7, Range Score-2.5
Total Score-29.67557

Most confusing unit in the game. Instant kill (0.3 Balance Bonus) but instead of killing targeted unit makes it a Ďchaosí unit i.e. it attacks everything in sight. This raised the question whether I should count a unit dead if it turned- for want of a better expression, Ďchaoticí. In the end I decided to do so but balanced this by counting the damage done by the Ďchaoticí unit to the Lampades. Otherwise, this unit is very, very similar to the Medusa. Looks cool though. One interesting use is to turn very strong enemy MUs Ďchaoticí. If u do this in an enemy town, wow, what a diversion. Also causes splash damage when killed. One could consider using this as a Ďsuicideí attack unit on large enemy armies or towns. All in the name of chaos.

8. Fenris Wolf Brood
Combat Score-20.1523016, Value Score-6.17, Range Score-0
Total Score-26.3230136

This unit is all about groups. The larger the group (upto 8), the better its speed and attack. Individually it is slightly weak. Its group skills get it a 0.2 Balance Bonus. Exceptional value. One word of advice is to use the box formation with your wolfpack to maximize damage bonuses.

9. Hekagigantes
Combat Score-22.38597572, Value Score-3.33, Range Score-0
Total Score-25.71597572

On the face of it this unit should be right up there with the Avenger and the Fire Giant. What prevents this is the fact that it takes too much damage from other units, does not have a bonus vs MUs and disperses its enemies with its special. Even the patch does not improve its armour, just its hp. Best building killer in AOM though.


10. Phoenix
Combat Score-20.509295, Value Score-3.84, Range Score-1
Total Score-25.349295

Not even a double Balance Bonus (0.2 for flying and for splash damage) could keep this bird flying. Its just too slow firing and its range is too small to be that useful. Pity, it used to be my favourite Mythic MU in the early days.

11. Gold Colossus
Combat Score-20.74121291, Value Score-3.33, Range Score-0
Total Score-24.0712191

Too slow and not good vs human units or other MUs. Itís ability to regenerate hp gets it a 0.1 Balance Bonus. It also wipes out buildings with ease. Not enough to save it.

Conclusions
The biggest conclusion I drew from these ratings is the fact that (barring a few exceptions) ES have done a fantastic job balancing the units and the civs. Just look at how close things are at the very top. My second conclusion is that upgrades really matter a lot in most cases. Looking at it objectively, take the Chimera. For nearly the same cost, one could have 8 Chimerae or 7 Chimera Tyrants + its upgrade. 7 Chimera Tyrants have a 29 hack damage advantage, a 960 hitpoint advantage and a 4 pop advantage over 8 un-upgraded Chimerae. This is not true for all MUs but in general, using the upgrade is a very good idea.
Anyway, I hope you enjoyed reading this article as much as I enjoyed researching and writing it.

Thanx
ManticoreKiller

Replies:
posted 03 February 2004 11:09 AM EDT (US)     1 / 55  
Welcome to AoMH, this looks like a nice guide, I don't have the time to read it right now, so i skimmed through, looks good so far.

Member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Schwartz
posted 03 February 2004 12:13 PM EDT (US)     2 / 55  
Very interesting article.

You have obviously put a lot of effort and time into these tests and ratings, and it seems to have paid off.

However, there are a few things I'm particularly interested in.

Quote:

This score is derived based on the MUís performance in a series of 5 tests. They are-
1. 1MU vs 3 unupgraded Zeus Hoplites
2. 1MU vs 3 unupgraded Toxotes

Surely this is a little unfair. A Mythic MU such as the Chimera will obviously beat the Hoplites and Toxotes with no problem at all. They have no upgrades. A more fair way of testing this would be adding appropriate upgrades to each unit. E.g, against a Chimera, give the hoplites and toxotes all upgrades that are available up to and including the Mythic Age. These would include line upgrades, armoury upgrades, and possibly Myth tech upgrades.

Interestingly, you only made Mummies and Medusae number 5 and 6 in your Mythic ratings. I find this extremely bizarre as their instant kills (and also Argi and Lampades) are the most powerful weapon against units. Sure Fire Giants and Avengers have brilliant attacks, but do they give you a free minion after killing a unit?

I can see you have put a lot of thought, time and effort into these ratings, but for me it doesn't reflect how good the Myth Units really are.
It's all very well having this information on paper, but how you apply it into real-game situations is a lot harder. Particularly with the variety of units there are in AOM, and the different ways of playing.

Altogether very interesting though, and welcome to AOMH


ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
Rating - 1662
Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

posted 03 February 2004 02:55 PM EDT (US)     3 / 55  
This is a really great post, but I think you should consider some special situations as well. Right now this only counts what the unit does "on average" on a general level. But very often myth units are better used for specialized tasks. So perhaps you can do a similar thing (but just with a different set of combat tests) for some of the following:
- Raiding Ability, that is, how many villagers it kills per second if you put it up against, say, a gold mine with 5 villies. The unit's speed would also be important here (maybe use Speed/5.0 as a multiplier or something)
- Anti-building Ability, basically try it against an area containing upgraded towers, a TC or hill fort, and maybe some barrackses, and see how fast it can kill them (if it can). This is where things like Mountain Giants and Collosi shine, I'm pretty sure 2-3 Collosi can take out 4-5 hill forts and still be at 90% health.
- Anti-soldier Ability, basically have two equal mixed armies facing each other and in one add the MU and in one don't (or add human units equivalent to the MU).
But overall, a very thorough comparsion of the more common myth units, great post.

Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
posted 03 February 2004 03:05 PM EDT (US)     4 / 55  
I hope you can also score them on buildings and other MUs.
Also record the time they live under 1 hero(need 2 tests,pierce attack hero and hack attack hero).

Good job

posted 03 February 2004 04:15 PM EDT (US)     5 / 55  
Great article indeed! Could you, however, not have any decimal places and include BB-code to bold/italicise instead? This would really help,

Quote:

25.07496473


could be 25.07 or something like that.

.¸¸.· · .¸¸.·´ §hïvå | RágeOfHaemòn · .¸¸.· · .¸¸.·
« . ° ¤ Scenario Designer | Woad Creations ¤ º . »
posted 03 February 2004 05:03 PM EDT (US)     6 / 55  
Nice Guide. I like how you compared within each age and combined all civs.

"Wisdom begins in wonder."
-Socrates

[This message has been edited by WeaponX00 (edited 02-03-2004 @ 05:04 PM).]

posted 03 February 2004 05:34 PM EDT (US)     7 / 55  
Nice work, but I don't think you put enough emphasis on things like range and speed. If I'm using a centaur against 3 greek Hops, I'm going to win without losing a single hitpoint.
posted 03 February 2004 07:36 PM EDT (US)     8 / 55  
Heka:

>[Low score because it] disperses its enemies
> with its special.

Can't believe you think that this is a disadvantage. This can be one of the best specials and should get a bonus in your calculations.

1-2 Hekas can blow apart a meatshield long enough for the rest of the army to rush the archers..

1-2 Hekas can knock all of the villager off of a wonder/titan gate.

I appreciate your contribution to the community, but I still think colossus and heka are two of the strongest MUs. And centaurs are the best classical raiding unit in the game...

posted 04 February 2004 02:17 AM EDT (US)     9 / 55  
Hi,
Thanx for ur responses. I'll try and reply 2 some of them

1."A Mythic MU such as the Chimera will obviously beat the Hoplites and Toxotes with no problem at all. They have no upgrades. A more fair way of testing this would be adding appropriate upgrades to each unit. E.g, against a Chimera, give the hoplites and toxotes all upgrades that are available up to and including the Mythic Age. These would include line upgrades, armoury upgrades, and possibly Myth tech upgrades.

Interestingly, you only made Mummies and Medusae number 5 and 6 in your Mythic ratings. I find this extremely bizarre as their instant kills (and also Argi and Lampades) are the most powerful weapon against units. Sure Fire Giants and Avengers have brilliant attacks, but do they give you a free minion after killing a unit?"

Basically, this is just a comparison test of all MUs. Had I upgraded the hops, they would probably be able to kill almost all the classical MUs. I wanted to use the same scale of comparison for everything. I'm sure u would agree that a Sphinx getting a higher score than an Avenger would be pretty hard to digest. A Chimera is a Mythic MU because it is more powerful than a Wadjet- so they would wipe the floor with the same hoplites that gave the Wadjet an **s whipping.
Incidentally, I did give all instant kill MUs a 0.3 bonus factor which improves their score. The fact is that with the probable exception of the Argus, and a Monstrous Rage Medusa, none of these units are all that good at combat per se. Anyway, if u look at the scores, the Mummy and the Argus really only lost out by 5th or 6th place decimal points. I did consider the damage done by the Mummy's minions.

2. "I think you should consider some special situations as well. Right now this only counts what the unit does "on average" on a general level. But very often myth units are better used for specialized tasks"

The whole idea is to compare on a general level. I'll think about some of the tests u mentioned.

3."I hope you can also score them on buildings and other MUs"

I already have - tests 3 and 5. As for the hero suggestion, I thought about that too but using MUs against heroes is really only a weapon of last resort.

4."Great article indeed! Could you, however, not have any decimal places and include BB-code to bold/italicise instead? This would really help"

Without the 7 decimal places, there would be a 5 way tie at the top. Thanx for the BB code suggestion.

5."I like how you compared within each age and combined all civs"

I think I xplained this in the post.

6."Heka:"
I like the Heka too. However, the situation where its special is useful is just one of the many situations possible in the game. Look at it this way- if the Heka did not disperse units with its special, it would cream them in no time at all. Furthermore, the Heka would take more damage from the ranged units while walking to take out the units it dispersed. Besides, the biggest factor in the Heka losing out was its weak Armor. I think ES could make the Heka better by increasing the amount of damage taken by each unit from the special by about 100%

7. Range And Speed-
This really counts in the group test (test 4). The MUs have to move to their targets. Range is given a pretty big weightage in the final score. That's why the Fire Giant won. The Centaur loses out because it's range isn't really enough.


posted 04 February 2004 08:11 AM EDT (US)     10 / 55  
Manticore, what Chimera was saying, was that you should give the units upgrades that are appropriate to the age the MU appears in (eg Heavy up and Bronze ups vs a Heroic MU).
Now that I read through, i noticed that you said the HekaGigantes was the best building killer in the game, it surprised me I always thought the Mountain Giant was better (also, Mountain Giants have a special attack vs dwarves, try it out )

Member of the Orion Clan
Orion_Schwartz

[This message has been edited by jschwartz173 (edited 02-04-2004 @ 08:27 AM).]

posted 04 February 2004 08:47 AM EDT (US)     11 / 55  
Nothing personal, but I do not think this is a good guide at all. It claims to be as "scientific" as possible, but the formulas lack a true scientific base - they are invented based on what seems plausible to you. As the consequence, they have severe weaknesses.

  • Unit speed does not factor in at all in your calculations. Not a surprise the famous centaur has poor results if you combine it to the slow hammartroll. But speed is VERY important in this game. A slow speed can effectively cripple an otherwise great unit (the Colossus being a good example. You mentioned this in your Colossus description, but it has no influence on your calculated values).

  • The "Value Score" is pretty much pointless. It is only a display for the sum of the overall cost of one copy of the myth unit, enveloped in a mathematical formula to make it look more impressing. A higher score means a lower resource cost, that's all. But "value" in the true meaning of the word is what the unit is actually worth, not what it costs. A cheap and crappy unit will get an excellent "Value Score", although you get what you paid for: crap. Remember that some myth units (like the hydra) offer more firepower in one unit, but that unit is expensive and uses up much pop space. Other myth units (like the centaur) are cheaper and train faster, but offer less hitpoints and do less damage, so you get more of them for the same price but also need more of them to get the same combat value. Your "Value Score" gives the false impression that the cheaper unit was better. A true value score must be the quotient of effectiveness and cost.

  • The way you calculate the "Combat Score" indicates you are looking for the universal unit, that is good at everything - from beating infantry and archers to destroying buildings - with no support from other unit types. As the consequence, archer type units like the centaur or the manticore suck big time, because they are useless against buildings, and - being ranged units themselves - they require a meat shield to be effective. Using such units against buildings or against an enemy melee force without meat shield protection would mean making a big mistake. You also had no siege myth units in your comparison - they naturally would have failed horribly in your tests (with the only exception of the tower test). A real combat score must examine how effective a unit is when it is used appropiately. There may be a deduction of the score if situations that allow proper use of the unit are rare - or a bonus if the unit does still fairly well in situations it was not made for. But these must only be small modifications to the core value that is based on proper use of the unit. It is up to the player to produce the unit he knows he will be able to make good use of.

  • The formula of the Range Score is quite simple, and so at least this score actually measures what it is supposed to measure: the quality of the unit's range. However, adding a quarter of the range to the two other scores that are calculated in a totally different way is very highhanded and lacks any scientific basis. And so does the "Total Score" that is the result of your calculations.

    Conclusion
    Some value of your comparison lies within the textual comments that you wrote about each unit. These comments take into account such important details like unit speed. Your numbers, however, are completely useless and suggest unit values that have nothing to do with reality.

  • posted 04 February 2004 10:31 AM EDT (US)     12 / 55  
    Hi,
    Some More Replies-

    jschwartz173- The MG might be better than the Heka vs weaker buildings but that is largely because of its special. Try this in ur editor- place three hill forts. Place a Heka, a Colossus and a Mountain Giant in front of each one. Playtest and get all three to attack at the same time. U will see that the Heka wins by a pretty big margin. Of course, a Scarab or a Behemoth might (I haven't tested) be better but I doubt it.

    DeathAndPain- Firstly, I appreciate any criticism or suggestions- only make things better. Let me make it clear this is not a guide. It's just a comparison test. That means using the same yardstick. I don't expect anyone to switch to Horus from Osiris just because the Avenger beat out the Mummy. At least- I haven't. I have, however, tried to take all factors into account. Let me explain-

    Hitpoints and Armour - This counts big time in % of HP lost
    Attack Damage (all types)- Obvious
    Cost- Obvious
    Range- Obvious
    Speed- I might have forgotten to add that all MUs must move a small distance to their targets in all tests and a fairly large distance in the group test.
    Special Attack- see the Balance Bonuses I have given. This is the only arbitrary factor I decided.

    I knew I'd get some stick for the Centaur but look at the facts. Both the Minotaur and the Cyclops are too expensive to use in Classical. Hermes' Ceasefire GP is awesomely useful. Therefore, taking the Centaur in Classical is a bit of a no brainer.

    I would not like 2 claim this is perfect, but I have tried to get the best all round MU. Undoubtably, some MUs do better at some things than others. While most ranged units suck vs buildings, they get a range score to compensate them for that. Those like the Petsuchos and the Fire Giant which can be used against buildings get a double advantage. I should have used a meatshield for the ranged MUs, but short of making a wall, I could not figure out how without screwing the times. Besides, survivability counts- even for ranged units. In short, the MU which is good at everything though not necessarily the best at any one thing gets a good score. In fact, I have all the scores in each test (so u can see which unit is the best vs Infantry etc.)- just be too much to put up.

    By the way- all times and stats are on an Excel file. I don't quite know how to post that though.


    posted 04 February 2004 12:16 PM EDT (US)     13 / 55  
    Intersting responses Manticore.

    However, I still feel that testing out MUs from different ages against units with absolutely upgrades at all is a little unfair. Giving them line upgrades and armoury improvements really do make a difference, and as I have found from experience, make tests more reliable.

    Also, obviously Mummies and Medusae are not brilliant fighting units, but then again they're not supposed to be. Like the Argi and Lampades, they should be used for taking out expensive, strong, powerful units. They don't excel against "regular" units, and so this is still a little unfair.

    It's all very well giving units a "combat" score, but there are so many different type of MUs, that I don't really feel that there is such a thing as an "average myth unit score", no matter how much you balance things.


    ESO user name - ChimeraArtemis
    Rating - 1662
    Favourite Major Gods - Isis, Gaia, Hades, Loki

    Creator of the Egyptian Myth Unit Guides - Phoenix, Wadjet, Scorpion Man, Scarab
    And the Atlantean Myth Unit Guides: Stymphalian Bird, Satyr, Lampades Heka-Gigantes, Man O'War

    posted 04 February 2004 06:40 PM EDT (US)     14 / 55  
    Numbers, numbers, numbers... some people seems to love them...

    To mee this guide tells nothing. Many important parameters are left out (speed, special abilities, crush damage etc), others are calculated in strange manners.

    Really, donīt let yourself be fouled by the simplicity of numbers.

    posted 04 February 2004 06:49 PM EDT (US)     15 / 55  
    Good Job. I'm happy to hear that most of the top Myth Units are egyptian, and are available to Ra!

    Eggy's Rule!


    Favourite Civ: Ra
    ESO Rating: 1790
    posted 04 February 2004 06:51 PM EDT (US)     16 / 55  
    Yeah, Ra will be the gossip of the lands and will conquer over all major gods and everyone will worship Ra...I'm worshipping another god if that happens...such as Hades or Oranos or Odin.
    posted 04 February 2004 07:09 PM EDT (US)     17 / 55  
    "I knew I'd get some stick for the Centaur but look at the facts. Both the Minotaur and the Cyclops are too expensive to use in Classical."

    LOL

    posted 08 February 2004 10:15 AM EDT (US)     18 / 55  
    Great Guide!!
    posted 08 February 2004 11:03 AM EDT (US)     19 / 55  
    I have two questions:
    1) Where the hell are all the water MU's?!
    2) You HAVE to add the upgrades for the hoplites, etc. when fighting MU's of the appropriate age. This test has to be based on realism, that is, only the extremely idiotic would send 5 unupgraded hoplites against, for example, a Chimera in a supremacy game. The test is, for want of a better term, incomplete. There are some things you just can't express in numbers and grades. However, I can see you put a lot of work into this, so... bravo!

    Welcome to the boards!

    posted 08 February 2004 02:12 PM EDT (US)     20 / 55  

    Firstly, I'd like 2 thank everone who read this post. I never expected so many replies to my first post. Anyway, I'd like to say I've got some really good suggestions-
    My intention was not to see how good a MU was against some units, it was simply to compare them. That given I've decided to update the ratings by using Medium Hops/Toxs for Classical MUs with medium upgrades, Heavy for Heroic and Champion for Mythic. I'll put the updated ratings up in 2-3 weeks. Other changes include a new 'raiding' test where a MU has to go to a gold mine kill 4 vills and come back to its starting point. Also, the cost of MU upgrades will be taken into account while calculating the value score. This should address the speed question. As for water MUs, I was waiting for the response to this post. I'll design similar tests for them on water.
    posted 08 February 2004 02:17 PM EDT (US)     21 / 55  
    I look forward to your very informative guide!!
    posted 08 February 2004 03:52 PM EDT (US)     22 / 55  
    Yeah, great guide. But often things are different on the battlefield.

    Rating - ~1700

    [VnX_Lime]-[Lime_the_Great]

    posted 08 February 2004 04:27 PM EDT (US)     23 / 55  
    how long did all this reaserch and typing take you ...... 5 days?
    posted 09 February 2004 02:42 AM EDT (US)     24 / 55  
    Knightof_Vahalla- This took about 4 hrs total spread over 4 days. Basically, I like numbers and Maths is a kind of a hobby of mine. Hell, I'm even a member of Mensa. I had real fun doing all the calculations mentally so it didn't take me so long. The article was no prob courtesy speech recoginition s/w.

    Lime the Great- U sure r right. Things really r different on the battlefield. But some things do help. Before I did this guide, I hardly ever used the Nemean Lion (the only time I can remember was in the spc). Now I use it more often and all those Turma spammers can eat my shorts. 80pc+ pierce armour (with its upgrade) makes it nearly immune to Turmas.

    posted 16 February 2004 11:15 AM EDT (US)     25 / 55  
    great work, you obviously worked very hard on this. i Agree on the upgrades point of view but no offence this still does not determine for me whether some MU are better than other ones....
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