RAX units only take up 2 pop slots while Heroic units take 3-5 pop slots. I find that the RAX units counter more effectively than the Heroic units (maybe because I can build more of them) and I can usually have 35+ of them early in the game. BUT Heroic units (if theres a nickname for them please tell me lol) seem to be stronger if there fighting the right units.
P.S. I am horrible at microing: is it easier just to use the number tags on certain units? Or just double click one of the units to select all of them?
Thx for the help.
[This message has been edited by Mighty Noldor (edited 05-15-2005 @ 11:03 AM).]
vs. norse, not entirely so, but an aggresive ra midgol spammer with fair mix of units is much harder to take out than a ra with just rax units.
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seem to be stronger if there fighting the right units.
So, in truth, it isn't really heroic units vs. rax units, it's more dependant on what makes a strong mix vs. what and what kind of economy supports what. Chariot archers are probably a very good round unit for support in almost any mix of units you use, and you can almost never go wrong with upgraded elephants.
Quoted from chunky_monkey:
Ok I usually play as Ra. And I either FH (using rain power) or spam tons of RAX units.
Quoted from chunky_monkey:
The question is which group is better.
Quoted from chunky_monkey:
RAX units only take up 2 pop slots while Heroic units take 3-5 pop slots.
Quoted from chunky_monkey:
I find that the RAX units counter more effectively than the Heroic units (maybe because I can build more of them)
Perhaps you should not make any slingers because these need good micro for effective use, and you said that this is not one of your strengths. Avoid spearmen; camels are a lot better. Horus spears may be decent, but still Ra camels with Osiris upgrade are the overall better choice against cavalry.
Quoted from chunky_monkey:
P.S. I am horrible at microing: is it easier just to use the number tags on certain units?
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When I see my Ra opponent spam rax units, I am usually very happy, because I know I have already won (in most cases).
I disagree and it really depends on situation.
vs Atlatnean - Yes, go FH because Egyptian have tough time vs long range Cheroballista + meatshield.
vs norse - advance fast and hit norse forward base as soon as you can with spear and axe works very well. Try to beat norse very early with faster training time advantage. Ta - 16 sec training time? RC - 18 Sec
BTW, you must attack him very fast before your opponent can mass RC & Ta.
vs Greek - depends, for example, Zeus will kill your base with hop + MU if you go FH.
And second TC bloom + Rax units defense work very well sometimes.
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The migdol units, not only because you get your Ra bonus on them.
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But the latter are much stronger than these odds suggest.
True, migdol units are better if you go FH. It is because migdol units are powerful, fast, get free medium upgrade, training faster per population, good on hit & run and raiding. You know after you go FH, your opponent most likely have more military units than you. You need to build a migdol to secure your gold source. You need to train military units very fast to defense. You need very fast raiding units to disturb your opponent's economy.
However, in late game. Rax units are more pop and cost wise than Migdol units.
I find a good post by IAmRa that it mentioned how rax units are better than migdol.
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I play mostly Ra..though recently i have decided to give Set a whirl..anyways on the Migdol or Barracks units disuccion...can be a tricky 1 sometimes
Migdol Units-Are FAST have better stats then Barracks units but are also more "expensive" and in all reality...just really aren't worth the investment you pay for them because Migdol units are not "hard" fighting units...they rely on speed not brut strength...if u can't constantly raid your opponent sucessfully...u will never gain ground with Migdol units...the other downside to Migdol units are they are not good for "pushing" your opponent back because u can't afford to lose very many of them...they are not spamable units like Barracks units are. and it cost 400 gold and 10 favor just to build the Migdol stronghold
Barracks units-Weaker in stats then Migdol units, But "cheaper" and more cost and pop effective...Barracks only cost 75 gold a piece...so u can make quite alot of them...Barracks units are good for "gaining ground" and are very economically "freindly" and can be recycled very easily
So basically the "moral" of this post is...i wouldn't use very many Migdol units...they just are not worth the cost...why spend 50 food and 70 gold on a cav counter...when u can spend 50 food and 20 gold and save 1 pop slot...but don't worry i will explain later why this 50 gold savings is important and how to deal with Jarls with spearmen as well...Egypt is all about using "cheap" Barracks units and recyling them and pushing forward with them...Egypt always loses more troops then their opponent does but still comes out ahead "cost effectivly" due to these troops costing less money and Levy Barracks soldiers for 300 food is a "steal"
Reasons not to use Migdol units-Is the GOLD cost...this gold can be put to much better use then wasting it on a Camel...when u can make a spearmen...u say what better use...the answer is MERCENARIES and MERCENARY CAV...that is your answer...u make 3 Camels you pay 150 food and 210 gold for 9 pop spaces...u can make 4 spearmen for 150 food and 80 gold...u do the math u just saved 130 gold....that's 1 Mercenary Cav...add this up for a period of 15 gaming minutes...or however long a game lasts...and u will see...that relying on Barracks units/Mercs/Myth units/and Siege towers...is alot "cheaper" and better then Migdol units...did i mention less pop requirements as well...this game is simple...he has has the most troops wins..u go all Migdol...go Camel+chariot or Elephant+Chariot...i'll go Spear+Sling...and i will beat you "cost and pop effetivly"...wanna know why?....why your burning 70 gold a unit...im only burning 20...therefore...im going going to even the odds bye over-running you with Mercenary's...i cna make more Mercenaries then you can...simply because im spendling less gold for my military then you are...not to mention im creating for 12 Barracks maybe even 13 or 14 bye mythic in a long game...compared to your 4 maybe 5 is stretching it max Migdol Strongholds
Cost of Barracks.vs. Cost of Migdol Stronghold-Barracks cost 75 gold a piece...Migdol Stronghold cost 400 gold and 10 favor...i can build 12 Barracks for 900 gold...only 900 gold!...it cost you 800 gold and 20 favor just to build 2 migdols...u will need ATLEAST 4 migdols to keep up with 12 Barracks...how much will that cost you? the answer is 1600 gold and 40 favor! wow..considering your paying between 40-70 gold a pop per migdol unit...to me paying 30 at most-20 at the least...im saving losts more gold then you..which means..im throw Mercs at you till the cows come home and still win out.."cost effetivly" thus i get more econ upgrades, thus i advance ages faster then you.
If Egypt got from the migdol a real "punch unit" like the Jarl...i may be tempted to use it...even if it was less cost effective...but this isn't the case...the Camel is too "fragile" to be spaming them..and dies to easily...Elephants cost too much food and 70 gold on top of the too much food..will drain your food like a shop vac...the only unit "semi-useful" out of the Migdol Stronghold is the "chariot archer"...making a few of these a "support" units is okay...but i wouldn't rely on the Migdol Stronghold
Best way to Play Egypt is Barracks units+Preists+Myth unit+Siege Towers+Mercs...it's the way to go...and u will win "alot" more games then you will lose playing it this way...try it sometime...see how many more mercs u can spam....watch how easy it is to recyle an army from Barracks units...watch and see how much better in econ shape you will be not hosing your gold on a Camel...even though Mercs die after a short time...they are still a "better" investment then the Camel because...they least kill 3-4 units before they die, 2 they are not weak and fragile like the camel, and they beat their direct counters...the Camel...is just useless...the chariot can be "useful" as a support unit..meaning a handful behind some Spears+slings is fine...but don't go crazy on them...they cost 3 pop remember
Just play Ra...as any other eggy civ..Spears+slings+Myth unit+Siege towers+Mercs...
Only build Migdols to Secure goldmines, and for cover fire for your troops when advancing on a forward position on your opponent...but atleast 90% of your army should consist of Barracks units...u will thank me later...like i said..when u can create twice as many Mercs as someone who is hosing gold on Migdol units, and u will like how much better shape your econ will be in...and Barracks are cheap to build...you cna't go wrong with this i think
oh and Sekhemut's Slings of the sun tech ROCKS...Slingers become just as good as Greek Toxtoes against ANY infantry(except Huskarls)..it's turns your Slingers into Counter infantry and counter archer thus giving it a dual role, Sekhemuts' Citadel is very "under-rated"..and it the Ptah+Sekhemut god path is a very good 1...Ptah's Barracks techs+Sekhemuts Slinger of the sun and Siege tower Techs...fit right in with the Spear+Sling+Myth unit+Siege towers+Mercs way of playing..and Citadel adds 10 pop spaces...outnumbering your oppoent...is important...the more barracks units you can make...the better your chances of winning are...it's all about numbers with Egypt...once u get a population advantage...you gotta press it...or u will lose
In mythic...i sugesst you "Strongly" consider Horus...I have had more Sucess picking Horus then i have Osiris...the Avenger is awesome..and only cost food...Horus makes Spearmen UBER..add 100% bonus to cav and more hack armor, plus adding 20% more hps' to Spearmen and 10% more hack attack couple that with the line upgrades and ptah's spearmen pierce upgrade and armory techs...and the Spearmen suddenly becomes the most"cost friendly" unit in the game come mythic...did i mention..only 50 food and 20 gold to build it...
Spearmen-Backbone of Egyptian Army
Slinger-cheapr support unit for Spearmen
Axemen-Great against infantry, make lots of these against Norse
Chariot Archer-has it's place as a "support unit"
Preists-a must can heal and are good against myth units and are ranged
Mercenary Cav-Now these guys will add the "punch" Migdol units and Barracks units lack..use these when going on a major offeensive or in a big battle...these guys will help Egypt Barracks army over-power opponent..as they are just tanks...think of the as pre-nerfed Odin Jarls that cost ZERO pop and only 120 gold
Myth unit-Anubite/Wadjet/Sphinx/Petsuchos/Mummy/Avenger take your pick...but use 1 of these guys in conjuntion with your barracks army depending on the egyptian god u choose
Siege Towers-Why use Elephants as a meatshield?..when u can use these...they can take a beating...and trash buildings...really makes your oponent have to micro more then you...can give u an edge in a major battle sending them around the back
this is how i play "most" of the time...every once in awhile imake more Mig units then normal...but recently i have changed to barracks and am having more sucess so it seems to be the way to go.
My conclusion - I would say Yes go mig units first always if you go FH. Then I would consider to add Rax units as my pop is full because barrack are more pop and cost wise while late game raiding is not as effective as early.
[This message has been edited by a192 (edited 05-18-2005 @ 00:23 AM).]
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vs norse - advance fast and hit norse forward base as soon as you can with spear and axe works very well.
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Try to beat norse very early with faster training time advantage. Ta - 16 sec training time? RC - 18 Sec
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I find a good post by IAmRa that it mentioned how rax units are better than migdol.
Quoted from IAmRa:
because Migdol units are not "hard" fighting units...they rely on speed not brut strength...if u can't constantly raid your opponent sucessfully...u will never gain ground with Migdol units
Quoted from IAmRa:
Barracks units-Weaker in stats then Migdol units, But "cheaper" and more cost and pop effective...
The other migdol units do similarly well if used properly. Chariots need a meatshield, but will then do well against any type of enemy unit (except archer counters for obvious reason). They can fight infantry and to a certain degree even cavalry even without meat shield due to their high hack armor. On top of that, they have their speed, so they can retreat any time if the tide turns against them. They are clearly more pop efficient than rax units as well.
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I never heard about IAmRa, but he does not really see mto know what he is talking about
It doesn't matter whether he is famous or not to me. He has his good arguements. That's it.
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He does not seem ever to have heard about elephants...
Quote: Cost effectiveness can be discussed, but rax units, especially spearmen, are the most pop inefficient units in the game (except against the units that they hard counter, i.e. axemen vs infantry and slingers vs archers). Spearmen, the mainline infantry unit, are a hard counter to nothing (unless you reach mythic age and research the Horus upgrade). They lose to all other mainline infantry that costs 2 pop (ulfs, hops, murmillos) as well as most other units. Meanwhile, the elephants, which are supposed to be countered by infantry, defeat all of the above cost- and pop-wise (despite their pop cost of 5). Sorry, he is right. Spear & sling units beat camel & CA combo pop and cost wise in AOM if same micro skill. For example, If you are talking about vs other civ's mainline infantry, then axe must be added instead of using spear.
Oh, I forgot to mention that it is a post around 1-2 years before.
He talked about AOM instead of AOMX.(Mainly focus on RA's camel & CA combo vs Rax units) On that time, WE is not OP.
Spear deals 3.85 damage to cavalry & 3.5 damage to others per population
Camel deals 4.6 damage to cavalry & 2.6 damage to others
per population
Sling deals 6 damage to archers & 1.5 damage to others
per population
CA deals 2.8 damage to all units per pop
As you see from stat above, if you micro well and hit right unit, sling + Spear always beat CA+camel
But I agree that:
1) Beefed WE in AOMX makes a big different.
2) Extra 10% hp of camel and CA from RA bonus in AOMX helps a lot
3) Rax units need crazy micro while Mig units are easier to use and micro with good speed.
4) There are some situations that camel+ca are better combo, for example, vs Atlantean, vs Skadi norse,...
Without having tested it, I can believe that a spear/slinger combo will defeat a camel/chariot combo, because spears are (very soft) counters to cavalry, while slingers are hard counters to archers. Quote: He talked about AOM instead of AOMX.(Mainly focus on RA's camel & CA combo vs Rax units) On that time, WE is not OP. As a matter of fact, whatever you plan on doing with (non-Horus) spearmen: Ulfs, hoplites, and murmillos could do it better for the same pop (except that they are somewhat slower).
But it did exist. The WE is not a TT unit. Your IamRa neglects their existence completely.
Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
and although rax units are hard counters, this further reinforces that you should build more of them later, when you find out what the enemy is doing. also, it is important to understand that midgol units can face a variety of units, not just the units they counter, and still come out on top. this is completely the opposite with rax units.
my conclusion is that you should use rax units for defense early on, and then switch over to the much more versatile midgol units. but of course, make rax units accordding to your opponents army.
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In your comparison, you only compare attack per pop slot. You neclect details like hp per pop slot or unit armor.
Spear HP=35, hack armor=40, Pierce armor=20
Sling HP=32.5 hack armor=15, Pierce armor=20
CA HP=30 hack armor=30, Pierce armor=20
Camel HP 41.7 hack armor=15, Pierce armor=30
I can't see any significantly advantage of Mid units.
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Take a Norse, for instance, who is using a RC/TA combo. In this situation, your spear/slinger will fail miserably, because RC counter the slingers (camels do not counter archers, although many think they do), and the TA rape the spears. Ok, slingers counter TA and spears counter RC, but RC are just so much more pop efficient, and it is not easy for the slingers in the second row to get into range of the TA without being slaughtered by the RC in the middle.
True. That's why most ppl think rax units are very hard to use. It need crazy mirco. You probably can't beat RC + TA
pop wise easily without myth tech.
BTW, I query CA+camel beat ulf+RC pop wise?? Actually, camel do not counter RC very well in same pop too.
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But it did exist. The WE is not a TT unit. Your IamRa neglects their existence completely.
I defense for RA again. You check the stat of WE in AOM version 1.04 or before, then you will understand what happen.
WE hack atk=12, hack armor=10, medium+heavy+champion upgrade= +30% hp only
Who bother WE?
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As a matter of fact, whatever you plan on doing with (non-Horus) spearmen: Ulfs, hoplites, and murmillos could do it better for the same pop (except that they are somewhat slower).
Quote: as Ra, unless you focus heavily on mythic upgrades for rax units, it is very hard to make them as effective as Midgol units(without myth ups). this is due to their already weak stats. even with myth upgrades, you may still find it hard to fight off an experienced player. I disagree that you said rax units with myth upgrades may still find it hard to fight off an experienced player. I don't doubt Mig units beat rax units in many situations but rax units with all myth upgrades beat Mig units in most situation. Quote: rax units are hard counters, this further reinforces that you should build more of them later, when you find out what the enemy is doing. also, it is important to understand that midgol units can face a variety of units, not just the units they counter, and still come out on top. this is completely the opposite with rax units. As I said, I always go mig units first after FH. Then I will build more of them as the time is moving on. Usually, I will replace camel in late game. CA still is a must unit to me for raiding goldies.
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Spear HP=35, hack armor=40, Pierce armor=20
Sling HP=32.5 hack armor=15, Pierce armor=20
CA HP=30 hack armor=30, Pierce armor=20
Camel HP 41.7 hack armor=15, Pierce armor=30
I can't see any significantly advantage of Mid units.
Camels have 49 hp vs hack damage (per pop) if you factor in hack armor, while spears have 58. On the other hand, camels have 60 hp vs pierce damage per pop while spears only have 41! Both units are primarily designed for use against cavalry. As you already pointed out, camels do substantially more damage against this type of unit. And - speaking about versatileness - camels do much better against archers, since they have faster speed and better pierce armor, and since spears lose to all other mainline infantry, they are not pop efficient against these, too. On top of that, camels have their far higher speed.
So whatever angle you look from, spears are nowhere near being pop-efficient.
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True. That's why most ppl think rax units are very hard to use. It need crazy mirco.
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It is last topic we discussed. Spear better vs archer, better vs siege...Anyway
Quoted from Reckless_Boomer:
my conclusion is that you should use rax units for defense early on, and then switch over to the much more versatile midgol units.
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Compare ranged to ranged and melee to melee. The hp difference between CA and slingers is minimal, but the CA has much better hack armor, much faster speed, and does almost 2x more damage against all non-archer units than slingers! Even against archers, the slinger only does 2x more damage than CA, making the slinger a very specific counter unit. Against TA slingers get an even lower bonus.
sling is better vs archers & TA only. No doubt that CA is one of best units and I agreed that CA is a must to me as I said before.
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Camels have 49 hp vs hack damage (per pop) if you factor in hack armor, while spears have 58. On the other hand, camels have 60 hp vs pierce damage per pop while spears only have 41! Both units are primarily designed for use against cavalry. As you already pointed out, camels do substantially more damage against this type of unit. And - speaking about versatileness - camels do much better against archers, since they have faster speed and better pierce armor, and since spears lose to all other mainline infantry, they are not pop efficient against these, too. On top of that, camels have their far higher speed.
But Camels is questionable. Yes, I just check recently stat of MfG_Xzanthor, one of current top Ra players, he uses CA+spear combo too. Quote: ...in order to compensate for having the worse units. If the opponent also has crazy micro, along with her superior units, the rax Eggy will again lose. Micro is no resort when evaluating unit values (except that you can expect some basic micro that can be called "proper use of the unit").
vs cavalry =>
vs archer =>
vs infantry =>
If you consider the following factors as well, like cost wise, bonus vs siege, myth tech and the cost of building train them... spear is far better than camel.
However, consider the great speed of camel. Camels are still worth to create early of the game.
The problem is crazy micro helps rax units a lots but it improves mig's performance little bit only. Camel always stand in front line while CA attack from behind, they already hit the right target even without micro. To compare with spear + sling combo, sling will attack front line unit automatically. As discussed before, sling is good vs archers only which always stay at the back while CA are good vs all units.
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