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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy Discussion » thors fully upgraded ulfsarks
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Topic Subject:thors fully upgraded ulfsarks
nick2
Mortal
posted 14 May 2005 06:12 PM EDT (US)         
i am changing the question of this thread sorry if the past replays confuse you (i dont wanna spam threads for every question i have)
i really cant help myself i am about 1660 but i use BO's other people give me and once those BO's hit there top rating they can get i dont really know how to change them to make them beter so is it best to start from your own head and make one or what

[This message has been edited by nick2 (edited 05-23-2005 @ 05:48 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Lord of terroR
Mortal
posted 14 May 2005 06:45 PM EDT (US)     1 / 21       
you dont

if you want a balced army do this

Freya(cav)
Bragi(ulf)
Baldr(killer RC and siege)


The power of hell is coming...
FoH; Forces of Hell
XprtGamer
Mortal
posted 16 May 2005 07:42 AM EDT (US)     2 / 21       
No one speicfily goes for ulsarks ppl usally have a mixed lot of armies. like ulfsurks backed up by TAs. It's a bad tactic to go for ulfsurks all the way. U are suppose to raid with RCs not ulfsurks and thor doesn't rush he raids.
X2C_41nT2L82Qu1T
Banned
posted 16 May 2005 07:54 AM EDT (US)     3 / 21       
Lol gamer how many mistakes can you make in the word ulfsark. Ulsarks, ulfsulks, ulfsulks, ulfsulks... read that out loud...

'and they OWNED' I hope so it was an EASY COMP, rofl.

Shiva
HG Alumnus
posted 16 May 2005 08:27 AM EDT (US)     4 / 21       
Calm down, X2C.

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XprtGamer
Mortal
posted 16 May 2005 08:36 AM EDT (US)     5 / 21       
dude who cares.
=P
xentelian
Mortal
posted 16 May 2005 12:59 PM EDT (US)     6 / 21       
Ulfs with Swine Array under Bragi do double damage vs Cavalry. That is the major one to have for ulfs. I stink as Norse but I know that much. Besides, who wouldn't want flaming weapons as a Norse player?
Pug
Mortal
posted 16 May 2005 03:27 PM EDT (US)     7 / 21       
Getting them upgraded is the trick.
nick2
Mortal
posted 16 May 2005 03:37 PM EDT (US)     8 / 21       
x2c or w/e your name is read teh very first like idk how to quote i said "i played and easy comp (not for practice)... ok if your gunna insult people get it right.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 17 May 2005 04:23 AM EDT (US)     9 / 21       
Insult or not, he got a point. You can own an easy comp with any unit (well, perhaps not with siege ). That says nothing about the value of your ulfs.

Actually, FU ulfs are good, but a good opponent will notice your god path and know your are fully into infantry (ulfs and Bravery huskarls). This means if he emphasizes inf counter production, he will easily be able to counter your troops unless you decide to make units that do not benefit from your myth upgrades at all (such as cavalry).

Lord of terroR is right, better than showing your opponent in advance which single type of unit he must counter in order to beat you, you better bet on a more versatile strategy by choosing the god path that he outlined. You still get good ulfs, but you also have something to resort to against his inf counters.

Freyja and Baldr are good choices because they prepare your RC to take out his inf counters (while Baldr's Ragnarok will provide more infantry to make use of that advantage). Pretty much all inf counters (except Atl fanatics) are vulnerable to cavalry, especially with the Baldr upgrade.

However, I have seen one single game in which the elite player P3n3m4 went this god path, obtained FU ulfs and defeated a Ra player with ulfs and huskarls only. A ulf/huskarl mixture has the advantage that it counters all migdol units, and migdol units are what Ra has his bonuses upon. However, P3n3m4 told me later that this was only successful because he knew in advance that the Ra player would make no axemen whatsoever. He probably knew that player I suppose. A smart Ra would mix in some axemen and then defeat that mixture hands down.

Quote:

Ulfs with Swine Array under Bragi do double damage vs Cavalry. That is the major one to have for ulfs. I stink as Norse but I know that much.


Yet even that knowledge is of limited truth: They do not do double damage; they just get a bonus of their base damage (9 hack) against cavalry. This means double damage if your ulfs are totally unupgraded, but is far less later in the game.

This also means that medium ulfs with swine array and no armory ups will defeat unupgraded elephants (which have the "medium" upgrade built-in) hands down, but once both sides have champion, the elephants will win (even if the ulfs also have call of valhalla). The ulfs can only gain back the edge through Thor's special armory ups. Loki can resort to myth units (although Loki surely is not first choice in mythic age anyway), but Odin, well, he does not even get Bragi, and his special jarls will fail against the phants. I have no idea how elite Odins counter phant spammers unless they manage to obtain enough favor for mass MU.


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
TOAO_Power
Mortal
posted 17 May 2005 08:06 AM EDT (US)     10 / 21       
Frost Giant+ Jarl.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 17 May 2005 10:06 AM EDT (US)     11 / 21       
After reaching heroic age rather early (you are well advised not to go there too late against an FH Isis or Ra), you can be happy if your favor suffices for one more giant. The Eggy can keep spamming elephants, limited only by resources that keep flowing in, while you need to fight in order to gain favor, and fighting requires suitable battle situations.

Now do not say the standard response to everything: "raid". Of course raiding makes sense against everyone, but you cannot rely on being able to successfully cut your opponent off his resources that way, especially not a defensive race like Isis or Ra.

I agree that the combo that you named looks like the best Odin can do, but I doubt it suffices.

Also note that frost giants require Skadi, which means that the jarls, without Njord's Ring Giver, are even weaker (although they would lose to elephants with Ring Giver as well).


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

[This message has been edited by DeathAndPain (edited 05-17-2005 @ 10:18 AM).]

xentelian
Mortal
posted 17 May 2005 11:09 AM EDT (US)     12 / 21       
My Quote:

Ulfs with Swine Array under Bragi do double damage vs Cavalry. That is the major one to have for ulfs. I stink as Norse but I know that much.

Yours:
Yet even that knowledge is of limited truth: They do not do double damage; they just get a bonus of their base damage (9 hack) against cavalry. This means double damage if your ulfs are totally unupgraded, but is far less later in the game.

Perhaps after some testing, if all the VS stats are indeed on base values, I will change tooltips techs to:
swine array ulf does 9 extra hack vs cavalry and
axe of vengeance axemen do 10 extra hack vs buildings
raiding cavalry sons of slepnir does 16 extra hack vs archers
as it will make more sense to some people than the +?% stuff
I cannot change line upgrades or armory upgrades though to specific values because it affects more than one unit.

Have you tested any of the vs stuff to be certain?
I agree with you 90%, but since I have not gone through testing everything personally (only pulling stats from proto and techtree) ?!?

[This message has been edited by xentelian (edited 05-17-2005 @ 11:34 AM).]

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 19 May 2005 02:45 AM EDT (US)     13 / 21       
After having a discussion about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of Bragi ulfs vs elephants, I did those tests in the editor, yes. And as I said, I found that with Swine array alone medium ulfs easily counter unupgraded elephants. But in order to beat champion elephants or even Thoth elephants, you need champion ulfs with swine array, call of valhalla and being one full set of armory upgrades ahead of them. So if we assume FU elephants (i.e. elephants with Thoth and full iron gear), then you need all of Thor's special armory ups on top of Bragi to defeat them pop-wise. (Well you do not need Dragonscale shields against elephants.)

Needless to say that I cannot guarantee this for all other myth upgrades (although I expect it will work just the same), because I have only tested the ulf vs phant situation.

Quote:

I cannot change line upgrades or armory upgrades though to specific values because it affects more than one unit.


I do not think that would be necessary anyway, because it is common knowledge that these are based on base values (except armor upgrades). It is the special multipliers that mislead people.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
a192
Mortal
posted 19 May 2005 04:03 AM EDT (US)     14 / 21       
It looks DeathAndPain is correct by logic. Same as Flaming Weapons, all human soldiers +100% base damage instead of total damage X2.
But somehow I always feel swine array ulf kill WE very very fast. Plus, it is very confusing that data file stated Swine Array -> DamageBonus vs. AbstractCavalry += 1.00x.

Another tech makes me feel query is "Slings of the Sun" ->
DamageBonus vs. AbstractInfantry += 0.30x.
Base attack of sling = 3, so sling with "Slings of the Sun" vs TA = 3*(3.3) = 9.9??
I always feel sling with this tech do better than that vs Ta in real game. Maybe I am wrong.

Phil Jackson
Mortal
posted 20 May 2005 03:22 AM EDT (US)     15 / 21       
I think the uber-ulfies is kind of a rip off because after you've poured all those myth techs into them and chosen a particular god path, they arent THAT much better than greek or atlantean infantry. To have to put all those resources into something that won't be good till late in the game with an aggressive civ. is not so exciting.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 20 May 2005 03:53 AM EDT (US)     16 / 21       

Quote:

But somehow I always feel swine array ulf kill WE very very fast.


Unfortunately "feeling" just does not cut it often enough. I was also surprised to see that Champion elephants defeat Bragi ulfs pop-wise when the latter have no Thor special armory ups, but it is a fact.

Same goes for your slinger vs TA example. Without having tested it, 10 damage are a real lot for a ranged unit! Especially against a target with low hp and low pierce armor such as TA.

Still I feel the need to mention that I have not yet bothered actually measuring the damage done by Bragi ulfs. I just examined their effectiveness vs phants. That damage can be measured though; I have done it often enough (for other units). It is not easy because of the random factor in every single hit, but it can be done. I just wanted to mention this just in case other factors are responsible for the effectiveness of champion phants (such as the champion upgrade being especially efficient for phants).


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
a192
Mortal
posted 20 May 2005 04:11 AM EDT (US)     17 / 21       

Quote:

Unfortunately "feeling" just does not cut it often enough. I was also surprised to see that Champion elephants defeat Bragi ulfs pop-wise when the latter have no Thor special armory ups, but it is a fact.

Ok, I see why after I tested it - WE have serious pathing problem. For example, 2WE vs 5 ulf. Two WE are very difficult to hit one ulfsark same time while 5 ulf can focus fire on one WE easily. In addition, when I pull off one wound ulfsark out, WE takes time/micro skill to find another target to attack.
2 Champion WE almost = 5 Bragi ulf (no Thor special armory)with micro
But 10 Bragi ulf beat 4 WE in pop easily.

Same as Sling vs TA, when a group of Sling vs a group of TA, due to snow ball effect, Ta lost badly to Sling with "Slings of the Sun".

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 20 May 2005 04:34 AM EDT (US)     18 / 21       

Quote:

But 10 Bragi ulf beat 4 WE in pop easily.


I used 6 WE vs 15 Bragi ulfs when I conducted the tests, and still the phants won when champion vs Bragi champion without Thor ups. I did not use any micro though. I see your point that a little micro can make a great difference in ulf vs phant combat. Then again, it is not easy for the Norse player in a larger battle to identify which of several adjacent ulfs a phant is attacking, then selecting that ulf with the mouse (not mis-clicking at that small unit in the process), and then ordering the ulf away, a command which will possibly be executed after some lag that occurs in many games. I mean, all this must be done before the ulf dies to the phant, and ulfs die pretty quickly to phants... I am not saying that it cannot be done, only that it is tricky and not as easy as it sounds.

Quote:

Same as Sling vs TA, when a group of Sling vs a group of TA, due to snow ball effect, Ta lost badly to Sling with "Slings of the Sun".


The snowball effect mainly plays a role when melee units fight ranged ones, because the ranged units can fire earlier and focus their fire more easily (so that the first melee units die way earlier than the first ranged units, which means that the overall damage dealt by the melee units decreases much earlier). It does not make much difference when analyzing ranged vs ranged (although it may have a small impact in this case because the slings have better range).

I mean, when comparing 1 sling vs 1 TA, the sling will win, which means that there are no losses (other than some health) to the slinger "army" in the whole combat. The slingers can hardly perform better as numbers increase on both sides.

When comparing melee vs ranged it is different: 1 hop will defeat 1 TA, which is a suckage result for the TA, but 20 hops will die horribly to 20 TA, which is much better for the TA.


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
nick2
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 05:49 PM EDT (US)     19 / 21       
how do i change the titale of this thread NOTE: i changed the question up top
DarkKnight_
Mortal
(id: PW_DarkKnight)
posted 23 May 2005 06:18 PM EDT (US)     20 / 21       
Only mods can change it, what do you want it changed to? Also, little suggestion...please use punctuation.

DK
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 May 2005 04:41 AM EDT (US)     21 / 21       
Changing a thread the way you plan to is not the way to go, nick2. The previous responses will not vanish, and nobody will be able to understand the thread anymore since it is no longer clear what ppl are responding to. Personally I think it should not be possible to edit a text at all when it has replies (and/or is beyond a certain age).

Also remember that others may have the same question later (and will search the forum). The answer might be in your thread, but they still will not find it if the thread has been tampered with in such a manner. Instead, you should not hesitate to go the normal way and open a new thread with suitable topic description for every single question you have.

However, before doing so you should make sure to search the forum with appropiate key words in order to find out if someone had the same question before and already got it answered (some ppl still ask for build orders for certain gods *sigh*).

Asking new strategical questions that have never been asked before can never be considered spam, no matter how many of them you may have.


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
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