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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy Discussion » Tower strangle
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Topic Subject:Tower strangle
fubudis
Mortal
posted 22 May 2005 09:27 PM EDT (US)         
I'm not exactly sure if this is a lagit strategy, but would an early tower strangle that prevents expansion work? It could work with gods like Heimdall i think it is that gets that one upgrade that lowers the cost of towers and makes em more powerful. Towers are just a poo to kill in classical as well so it could work. I'm not sure of an exact BO for this and ive never seen it happen or anything it was just an idea i got from playing WCIII a while back. any comments welcome

If you give a man a match, he will be warm for an hour. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
AuthorReplies:
Pug
Mortal
posted 22 May 2005 10:30 PM EDT (US)     1 / 28       
its too resource heavey to do it off the bat, but sometimes norse rushers will put a tower up over a gold mine being mined. After you have an econ going though you can run around and put towers up at gold mines and fortify your own base.

There is a loki heimdal tower push strat, but i dont ever see it used and cant find a bo for it.

Lord_Spike3
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 00:46 AM EDT (US)     2 / 28       
itz a little off topic but i love ur signature fubudis

lol spike


All men dream, just not some as much as others. Some men dream of great things in the dark of night, but when morning comes they see that these things are out of their reach and forget them. Other men dream in the day, these men are dangerous men indeed, for they dream of change and conquest and fight for it with unmatched strength. These are the Chaos Knights
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 03:09 AM EDT (US)     3 / 28       
@fubudis: Tower strangling sounds tempting against Eggy, because these need a remote gold mine right after completing their FH, or they will run out of gold (unless they do not happen to have a second mine in their home base). So if you manage to keep them off all remote gold mines, you have already won. (They could set up a trading route, but that lasts too long. They need at least one more mine before relying on trade.)

Trouble is, villies get a fat bonus vs towers, so lone towers will go down in no time. You will have pretty much no troops, because you are spending your money on tower spamming. That is why it will not work.

But Pug is right, if you make it deeper into the game you can try to tower off as many mines as possible. I suggest surrounding these towers with wall connectors. These will offer much better protection than any other building that you could place around your towers because they have tons of hp along with 60+% hack armor and only a small surface for melee units to attack at. Along with that, they cost only little gold. So a few wall connectors for a few pieces of gold can easily double the value of your tower. That way you also negate the villie's bonus vs towers, because in order to benefit from that, they must first make it to the tower.


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Fanatic_Kaster
Banned
posted 23 May 2005 03:17 AM EDT (US)     4 / 28       
When Krushing, I timeshift towers just out side there Fish/Farm/Gold and at Rax to give me something to fall back on.
Its quite effective
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 04:02 AM EDT (US)     5 / 28       
It makes little difference if you timeshift or build them there: You will have to pay for the towers either way (unless you strip your home base of your initial towers and be wide open for raids, that is). And towers are nowhere near being effective against rax... They will start shooting at the rax once no other target is in range and keep shooting at the rax when new units pop out of it. Your enemy has his production capacities at his rax and will normally be able to overpower you there and then tear down your tower.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Fanatic_Kaster
Banned
posted 23 May 2005 07:31 AM EDT (US)     6 / 28       
@DeathAndPain Sorry I should of been a bit more Specific:


Quote:

And towers are nowhere near being effective against rax


I meant my Rax, that I timeshifted.

Quote:

(unless you strip your home base of your initial towers and be wide open for raids, that is


Open my base for raids? I'm talking about 1Vs1 here.

Its very effective, I copyed the tactic from one of Cerebra1's Replays lol.

fubudis
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 09:33 AM EDT (US)     7 / 28       
I realize that this strat is resource heavy but thats why i pointed out that upgrade that heimdall gets that makes ur towers much cheaper and a lot stronger in terms of HP so they are harder to destroy. Just a thought though. I can test it out and get back to you.

If you give a man a match, he will be warm for an hour. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Fanatic_Kaster
Banned
posted 23 May 2005 10:42 AM EDT (US)     8 / 28       
Well all I know is every time I've timeshifted my towers to strangle the enemy and protect my Turma I've had success
nick2
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 04:35 PM EDT (US)     9 / 28       
i played WC3 too but the ratios and costs are TOTALLY DIFF casue you need 15 vili at most in WC3 and the do mroe damage in a ratio . it just doesnt seem viable to do it in AOM or titans
Brtnboarder495
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 04:47 PM EDT (US)     10 / 28       
Your better off maxing out your pop first, and then if you can afford it just plop down a few towers. But you are better off leaving an RC or ulf at each gold mine you have scouted out to keep the enemy from gold mining there. That way, if your unit encounters miners, you can send a larger raiding party over. It may be a bit of a "waste" of pop to some, but it's a good technique.

Gameranger: _NiGhThAwK_
Pug
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 05:14 PM EDT (US)     11 / 28       

Quote:

leaving an RC or ulf at each gold mine

Ive had an RC at a gold mine and cause of its crappy los there were vills on the other end of the mine mining away. Kinda funny actually.

I build barracks near gold minds. Kinda like mini bases at all gold locations. (mid classical timeframe id say). Before that a house or wall section comes in handy.

fubudis
Mortal
posted 23 May 2005 09:17 PM EDT (US)     12 / 28       
OK. I played a few test games and found a strat that worked sort of well. I'll show the BO that I used on tundra with pretty much optimal conditions. (Sorry i can't post the replay.) It worked pretty well against though it was against an easy comp. But i had about 3 toewrs up by 6 min and had 2 hesirs hesirs and an ulsfark with more hesirs coming. Also, advancing through heimdall works well because of his safe guard upgrade giving your towers 1100 HP and making them cost 175w and 75g. Thus, you can focus on econ and make towers and heisrs. K so here is the BO.

Start-I'm odin.
2 villagers to food
research hunting dog upgrade
next vill to food
2 more vills to food (now have 5 on food with hunting dogs upgrade)
Build a house when ever its needed, pretty obvious.
Next vill to a near by wood tree
One to gold
One to wood
one to gold
4 more to food
1 to wood
1 to gold
1 to wood
Build the temple as soon as you can.
Now we have 9 on food 4 on wood and 3 on gold with only 1 oxcart. We advance and hit classical around 4:30-5:00. Not half bad IMO.
By this time you should have TONS of food from allthe vills on food with the HD upgrade, so build 2 hesirs and more villies. Research safe guard at your TC ASAP. you should have enough favor if you have been slaughtering stuff with hunting. Kill some random animals with your hesirs to get more favor as well. BTW the temple shuold be in the middle of hte map for easy access to their base.
getting hand axe and mining pick is pretty important so get those soon then just disperse the villagers being build to mostly wood then to gold after about 7 on wood w/ a cart. You can get quite a few towers up quickly with no Rax necesssary because of the hesirs at the temple. Where to build the towers is up to you. I just surrounded his base with them and it was pretty funny actually. If somthing seems wrong with this BO just tell me and ill see if i can explain/change the thing that's wrong/fishy.


If you give a man a match, he will be warm for an hour. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 May 2005 04:25 AM EDT (US)     13 / 28       

Quoted from fubudis:

It worked pretty well against though it was against an easy comp.


Exactly which strategy that any sane player could think of would not work against an easy comp?

To put it differently: Why did you not test your strategy the hard way: in a rated match?

Quoted from fubudis:

But i had about 3 toewrs up by 6 min and had 2 hesirs hesirs and an ulsfark with more hesirs coming.


And what do you do about my RC group that has reached your home villies by 6 min, bypassing your forward towers?

And hersirs are no pop-efficient units (you are not Loki). They are helpful against MU and when you need military on the map quickly (so you can use the temple), but otherwise do not max out firepower.

With a few towers you cannot strangle anybody. You would need lots of them. If your towers are widely dispersed, it is easy to take them down one-by-one. If they are grouped, so that they protect each other, the enemy can always expand into a different direction. By the time you have made enough towers to cover every mine and TC he can get to, he already has a second TC and is in heroic age. Meanwhile, your rear econ has been thoroughly raided.

Again, tower strangle does work and is a proven strat once you have a pop-limit army (that will also help erecting the towers) and have a solid forward build. But you cannot do it without units and hope to win through towers alone, accompanied only by a few paltry hersirs.

I agree, however, that your approach may work well against weak players, because most weak players have in common that they hesitate a lot before daring an attack. If your opponent leaves you time to complete your work, then you have most obviously won. Then again, any tactics works against weak players, as well as easy comps...

Quoted from pug:

I build barracks near gold minds. Kinda like mini bases at all gold locations. (mid classical timeframe id say). Before that a house or wall section comes in handy.


Wall sections are best. They are cheap, build very quickly and are a pain for your opponent to remove (600hp@60+% hack armor). Optimal is four connectors around the mine against Greek and Eggy so that they cannot properly place their mining camp.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
fubudis
Mortal
posted 24 May 2005 09:19 AM EDT (US)     14 / 28       
Oh well, it was just an idea. Raiding my base wouldnn't super easy though because of the upgraded towers but that's not ahuge facotr. Thanks for your feed back. and BTW, i never build the towers alone i start at the front of their base and work my way around. If they do manage to expand in a direction, i have my ravnes find them and then ill kill em with somthing. and the only reason i use heisrs, is because of that annoying free MU the enemy gets as well as they are the strongest calssical builder and won't die easy to tox or TC fire. well not as easily as ulsfakrs. also i want to conserve wood. But w/e. it was just a thought. thanks again.

If you give a man a match, he will be warm for an hour. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
fubudis
Mortal
posted 24 May 2005 09:51 AM EDT (US)     15 / 28       
I just thought of somthing... Wouldn't this strategy totally screw over an Isis FH? Considering this is a very popular strat this option for a BO could be viable in this situation. All of Isis's classical units except the sphinx, have low pierce armor and no damaged bonus's against buildings. Just a thought though.

If you give a man a match, he will be warm for an hour. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
fubudis
Mortal
posted 24 May 2005 08:02 PM EDT (US)     16 / 28       
K i retested the strategy out on a hard computer this time. I advanced around 4:30 and had upgraded my towers and had safe guard with 3 hesirs up as well as an additional forward tower with a decent econ. I quickly built up more towers and by 10 minutes i had his base locked in. Even before that, i had secured his base pretty much with barracks and stray towers surrounded by houses. it worked pretty well actually. sorta a joke strategy if youre bored. but ok thats about it. any more suggestions welcome.

If you give a man a match, he will be warm for an hour. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
X2C_41nT2L82Qu1T
Banned
posted 24 May 2005 09:10 PM EDT (US)     17 / 28       
First suggestion: dont double post and especialy not triple post like that.

Second: dont test a strat on comps that cant play.

Etendorf
Mortal
posted 24 May 2005 09:17 PM EDT (US)     18 / 28       
Towers aren't worth cost wise unless you are using them to fire into your opponets base resource location or are almost at pop, because towers can add damage while not taking any population space.

You need one always within range of another usually, and even then, I've seen skilled players take them down very easily with a mix of units and few viligers.

Try instead to balance your economy to stay very aggresive with food units and get heroic. My last few games my eco looks something like 17 food, 6 wood, 8 gold so I can get both alot of rc and a few valks with a 9 to 11 minute advance, in which building hillforts is much more cost effective then afterwards.

The only exeption would be if you get locked in a classical fight with a hip building greek or later in heroic dealing with camels/elephants or prodromos and research crennelations. That can pwn them, especially with safeguard researched, as I think two towers covering each other with cren up and safeguard can do some pretty fine damage to them while they try to take them down. It becomes less effective it seems the more pierce armor ups they get, although it should be noted that prodromos die very severly to tower fire(as they suffer from both low pierce armor, hitpoints, and the 2x bonus of cren), when it hits them.


Nick: Eten.
Gods: All of them!
Vanilla.
fubudis
Mortal
posted 24 May 2005 11:33 PM EDT (US)     19 / 28       
etendorf, thanks for your reply. it seemed logical enough.

X2C, I can post as many times as i want on this thread on account of I made it. Also, the first 2 posts were rather inconclusive so i wanted to rap things up. Don't just come into my thread and bash me. Try at least to give a bit of constructive criticism instead of just, "Don't test against comps who can't play". gee, thats just brilliant...

But w/e. It was more a fun strat than a lagit one i guess ill stick to raiding.


If you give a man a match, he will be warm for an hour. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Sam_Ham
Mortal
posted 25 May 2005 02:28 AM EDT (US)     20 / 28       
Use the edit button instead.


Sometimes you need to scare the lambs,
tell tales of evil bad wolves.
Because if there is nothing to fear,
they might think for themselves.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 25 May 2005 04:02 AM EDT (US)     21 / 28       

Quoted from fubudis:

I just thought of somthing... Wouldn't this strategy totally screw over an Isis FH?


No way. You said you have three towers at 6:00. Isis will be in heroic soon afterwards. If she finds one free gold mine once she hits heroic (and she will, as you cannot totally lock her up before her fast heroic completes), then she will erect a migdol there and spam elephants. These elephants will have no problem tearing down your towers and will laugh about your hersirs.

Also remember that villagers enjoy a fat 2.5x multiplier vs towers when you try to keep them off resources. They have the base damage of a hoplite and can quickly tear down a tower. You need heavy fortifications (such as other buildings in front of your towers) to prevent them from doing it, fortifications that you cannot have everywhere quickly. Even wall connectors require time and mouse micro to erect.

Furthermore, no matter what you think about his manners, X2C_41nT2L82Qu1T got a point. Testing strategies against the CPU makes absolutely no sense. The CPU is omniscient concerning your units and buildings, but lacks some basic intelligence when it comes to countering a strategy. This is no real game situation. Why do you not just go rated with your strat? Either you will find that it is great, or you will learn why it sucks by watching how the crap is beaten outta you.


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Etendorf
Mortal
posted 25 May 2005 10:53 AM EDT (US)     22 / 28       
I think villigers only have a 1.5 multiplier vs. towers, not 2.5, and thus do pretty much the same damage of a hoplite.

I'm not sure if I said it right, but once you are going a bit, hiemdall towers put aggresivly can be very effective, just not right off the bat.

And for an Isis FH, I'd say towering specifically the some gold mines might possible work, but it's a gamble atm because I've never seen it done before. Probably because at ~8 min Isis is going for that first midgol there, so you would need to have spend the 300 res on the up, then another 600 resources on just two towers and the time it takes to build the towers by 8 minutes. Then, it's still shaky because they could potientally just move to another gold mine and you'd be 900 resources down from any attempt to keep them off gold there.


Nick: Eten.
Gods: All of them!
Vanilla.
sychronizer123
Banned
posted 25 May 2005 11:29 AM EDT (US)     23 / 28       
Ok, in this ipost i will show why this strat is not viable unless against someone who SUCKS.

First, as kronos. To build a tower it cost 200 wood and 100 gold. To timeshift a tower if cost 200 wood and 100 gold. To upgrade them to watch towers cost 200 wood and 100 gold. Let's say you starts krushing. It is impossible to manage an economy with 6 villagers. First the initial 200 wood and 100 gold for upgrade. Second you have to timeshift towers from your own base

Quote:

I think villigers only have a 1.5 multiplier vs. towers, not 2.5, and thus do pretty much the same damage of a hoplite.

It's 2.5. If you don't believe me go look it up.
Second, the villager has a huge bonus against towers. 2.5x! That's more than the hoplite. So if your krushing with this strat, let's say your opponent is stupid enough to let your timeshifting tower go unnoticed, he'll send a villie destroy it. In no time he'll have an army and fight back your army of three oracles and a prommy, and your ****ing screwed!

Now let's say you were norse and tried that strat.

Quote:

I can post as many times as i want on this thread on account of I made it. Also, the first 2 posts were rather inconclusive so i wanted to rap things up. Don't just come into my thread and bash me. Try at least to give a bit of constructive criticism instead of just, "Don't test against comps who can't play". gee, thats just brilliant...

Fundabus or whatever. You come up with a strat that you test on a comp and say it's possible? Comps can think.
They just do what they do nomatter what. For example in archiac you keep using a villie to attack their temple under construction. They'll never make to to classical. Even if you have 3 towers at 6 minutes. ( which is pretty hard on your economy). They could bring all their villies and decimiate it in a matter of seconds. Since you spent all that resources on towers. you need brilliant walling skillz but you can wall around gold mines sadly. Plus you wont have resources to build large buildings around it even if you are 2k.


Quote:

And for an Isis FH, I'd say towering specifically the some gold mines might possible work, but it's a gamble atm because I've never seen it done before. Probably because at ~8 min Isis is going for that first midgol there, so you would need to have spend the 300 res on the up, then another 600 resources on just two towers and the time it takes to build the towers by 8 minutes. Then, it's still shaky because they could potientally just move to another gold mine and you'd be 900 resources down from any attempt to keep them off gold there.

Lol. three towers by 8 minutes? First you forgot a/e. Second theres the sphinx? It'll destroy your builder or your building while their timeshifing. And yes, any decent scouter would have found at least another gold mine by the time it hit 8 freaking minutes. Plus, wouldn't a good isis player moved to the large gold mine around 6 minutes?

Quote:

But w/e. It was more a fun strat than a lagit one i guess ill stick to raiding.

Fun, fun. Um, i don't think having my opponents villager beat my hard earned resources to waste is fun. Maybe when I'm bored I'll try it on some sub 1700 and see what happens.

I just tested the strat out with the BO you gave me. The guy was 1570 and he crapped me lol. He just sent all his villies to destroy my towers. Even he had common sense.

Quote:

Its very effective, I copyed the tactic from one of Cerebra1's Replays lol.

You forgot he's 2k...

[This message has been edited by sychronizer123 (edited 05-25-2005 @ 11:31 AM).]

Pwned
Mortal
(id: You_Are_Pwned)
posted 25 May 2005 12:05 PM EDT (US)     24 / 28       

Quote:

Ok, in this ipost i will show why this strat is not viable unless against someone who SUCKS.

Not true, Isis can do this quite well on maps like Ghost Lake. It only works against Attie though, you advance around 4:00 with a bad eco then cast plague of serpants on the gold mine inside his base.

Then put a tower up with pharoah + two vills on this gold mine, there's no way he can get to this gold mine now. Then make sure you have LoS on the gold mines around his base and use towers + anubites + slingers to stop hom from getting another gold mine.

DoJo_Milo posted some games of it on AoTS.


ada
Etendorf
Mortal
posted 25 May 2005 12:41 PM EDT (US)     25 / 28       

Quote:

It's 2.5. If you don't believe me go look it up.

I try too.. I just keep finding conflicting information and it's starts to get pretty confusing. I suspected that I must be wrong, because anymore I'm not sure if a hop gets 1.5 vs. buildings are 2x even.

2.5 must be it, because I remember vils do something like 20 hack damage vs. a tower...meaning one vil takes a tower down in around 25 to 30 seconds...

Quote:

Lol. three towers by 8 minutes? First you forgot a/e. Second theres the sphinx? It'll destroy your builder or your building while their timeshifing. And yes, any decent scouter would have found at least another gold mine by the time it hit 8 freaking minutes. Plus, wouldn't a good isis player moved to the large gold mine around 6 minutes?


no, only two still costs you 900 res. no, I didn't forget, I'm not that dumb, but they won't cast it just for towers, or towers and hersir mix, unless they are dumb. No, sphinx suck vs. hersir, which is pretty common in ~5 for norse vs. Isis FH at least; Also, I play mostly AOM, they don't usually even have a sphinx.
No, Isis players won't expose their gold like that in a FH, they'll only try to take one at 6 with at least a semi-FH, in which case dealing with them is a whole lot easier than the typical FH. 8 minutes is rather typical for a FH, they still get heroic sooner, but have a strong enough eco for midgol, tc, and constant unit production at least to be quite safe. Anything to fast makes them fall behind vs. a boom with some just a few heroes for defense, because they can't afford enough mil or second and third tc's soon enough .

As long as you keep eggy of their third gold mine at least, which towering can do, you can win. Like I said in the first place, it's usually better to just go heroic and double hillfort the mines instead of using towers, and then fight for their 3rd tc trying to keep them from establishing a solid trade route with that kind of pressure, and waiting their second gold mine out.


Nick: Eten.
Gods: All of them!
Vanilla.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 26 May 2005 08:53 AM EDT (US)     26 / 28       

Quoted from sychronizer123:

you need brilliant walling skillz but you can wall around gold mines sadly.

Why would it take brilliant walling skills to do a few double-clicks around your towers (placing two wall connectors on the same spot, for a total of 1200hp @60+% hack armor with villies getting no bonus vs this, all for extremely little gold)?

Quoted from Etendorf:

I suspected that I must be wrong, because anymore I'm not sure if a hop gets 1.5 vs. buildings are 2x even.


The truth is that hoplites get no bonus at all vs buildings. The only thing you can have is Zeus, which grants your hops 2x vs buildings as a god ability (in return for which other gods have other abilities). However, villies have their bonus vs towers by default; you need no god abilities for that.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
sdw12umdjc
Mortal
posted 26 May 2005 07:17 PM EDT (US)     27 / 28       
I tried a heavy tower strat versus two hard computers a few times advancing with Hathor to get cheaper buildings. The cheaper towers helped to build one or two more towers but that's not a big enough advantage to make a difference against an actual person in my opinion. The only benefit from using this strat was good map control. This strat is probably best used by putting up one or two towers/forts at distant gold mines and huntables in late classical and early heroic.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 27 May 2005 04:17 AM EDT (US)     28 / 28       

Quote:

This strat is probably best used by putting up one or two towers/forts at distant gold mines and huntables in late classical and early heroic.


żżż You cannot put up forts in late classical, and any villager group will use its 2.5x bonus to tear down your "one or two towers" in no time if they want to gather at that location.

Putting up a migdol near a gold mine in heroic is standard Eggy tactics.


Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
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