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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Why Set Isn't A Problem (Facts)
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Topic Subject:Why Set Isn't A Problem (Facts)
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JetSolo
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 00:00 AM EDT (US)         
I ran across a great point that forumer:

LKS_Cyanide wrote on MFO : http://www.mrfixitonline.com/readTopic.asp?PostingId=1263387


Quoted From LKS_Cyanide:


"Why SET isn't a problem. Part II.

Civilization Win Pct Games Used
Greek
Zeus 44% 13,254 12%
Hades 46% 11,094 10%
Poseidon 52% 12,114 11%
Greek 47% 36,462 32%

Egyptian
Isis 50% 11,234 10%
Ra 44% 4,496 4%
Set 55% 10,500 9%
Egyptian 51% 26,230 23%

Norse
Odin 53% 16,412 14%
Thor 51% 13,815 12%
Loki 51% 21,039 18%
Norse 51% 51,266 45%

Source: Aom.Holbert.org April 20, 2003 (WEEKLY STAT QUERIE)

As you can see, the winning percentage for SET is 55%, however, only 9% of all those who play, choose Set. If anything, check out the Norse. 53% for Odin...and it's being played by people who are considerably less skilled than those who are playing SET. (As evidenced by the 14% of those who are playing that civ.)

If anything, the evidence suggests that ODIN is more overpowered than SET is.

A good explanation would be that for ODIN to grab early map control, all he has to do is send his Ulfie forward and not get detected. For SET to grab early map control, well, it requires a hell of a lot more micro'ing.

What about the accusations that only the top 20 players are all SET? Well, let's take a look at the PROOF, shall we?

Top 25 Avg 1736 90% 15 16:19 5:43 12:43 21:17 4.73 7.72 8.09 6.32 0.11 Set (22%) 2003-04-20
1. KGB_Skipper 1761 94% 17 14:33 6:00 11:34 19:12 4.73 7.35 6.91 7.55 0.10 Isis (59%) 2003-04-20
2. ZM_YouLose 1750 100% 17 15:51 6:54 11:43 19:40 4.10 6.28 6.90 3.81 0.13 Set (100%) 2003-04-20
3. FOPT_Trial273 1749 100% 14 14:16 5:05 13:16 21:19 4.92 7.85 8.74 6.57 0.15 Loki (100%) 2003-04-20
4. IamWalker 1748 60% 28 22:09 5:47 12:08 27:02 4.48 7.65 8.55 6.43 0.10 Set (64%) 2003-04-20
5. KGB_Brim 1743 93% 16 15:22 5:47 13:30 22:21 4.46 6.64 7.89 6.24 0.08 Isis (50%) 2003-04-20
6. SethTraining 1743 100% 14 13:32 5:49 12:05 16:59 4.40 7.99 7.35 4.27 0.08 Set (100%) 2003-04-20
7. Schattendrache 1741 86% 15 15:53 5:27 11:47 21:48 4.28 8.08 7.67 5.10 0.07 Ra (67%) 2003-04-20
8. BPSK 1736 93% 16 16:15 5:15 12:27 14:42 5.40 8.29 10.35 6.64 0.12 Thor (100%) 2003-04-20
9. Skipper_TBE 1735 100% 12 13:27 5:52 12:08 17:34 4.80 7.26 5.87 6.69 0.17 Zeus (67%) 2003-04-18
10. limpbizkit_com 1735 89% 19 13:43 5:29 19:38 23:31 4.25 5.50 7.30 6.43 0.15 Thor (79%) 2003-04-20
11. Zg_GoBo 1734 94% 19 15:50 5:34 12:51 21:50 4.98 8.42 8.09 6.99 0.10 Isis (37%) 2003-04-19
12. Anne_Nurmi_be 1733 100% 16 18:53 6:30 13:30 23:21 5.04 8.89 8.88 7.32 0.11 Set (75%) 2003-04-18
13. L_Clan_MuambA 1733 100% 11 13:30 5:15 12:05 16:24 4.15 5.30 8.46 5.44 0.10 Thor (100%) 2003-04-20
14. TSoW_Yang 1732 73% 19 21:36 5:32 13:41 22:54 5.43 9.37 9.32 6.99 0.10 Pos (68%) 2003-04-20
15. SysRq 1732 100% 12 14:00 5:47 12:04 16:15 4.17 6.91 6.57 4.94 0.08 Pos (17%) 2003-04-18
16. L_Clan_XP 1732 100% 12 11:40 5:13 12:37 0:00 4.34 7.28 6.28 5.65 0.11 Odin (67%) 2003-04-20
17. IamYaMa 1731 100% 9 16:06 5:17 11:06 16:47 4.69 6.36 7.65 6.73 0.11 Thor (56%) 2003-04-20
18. camarapa 1730 87% 8 16:32 5:19 13:28 24:03 5.04 7.05 8.25 8.50 0.12 Thor (88%) 2003-04-20
19. Twist_Of_Fate 1729 92% 13 16:54 5:39 15:06 19:27 4.00 5.97 6.41 5.52 0.11 Odin (46%) 2003-04-20
20. Qu4rTz 1729 100% 9 20:51 6:06 12:15 23:31 5.38 8.78 8.99 7.53 0.12 Set (44%) 2003-04-19
21. Caliss_ST 1728 91% 24 19:45 6:06 10:50 20:39 5.61 9.90 10.91 6.42 0.12 Ra (79%) 2003-04-19
22. ArgoNaut_ZenZin_ 1728 60% 20 16:01 5:14 14:56 21:16 4.64 8.11 7.12 6.49 0.13 Odin (80%) 2003-04-20
23. BORN_TO_KlLL 1727 100% 11 11:23 5:21 13:09 23:10 4.67 8.01 7.05 5.50 0.11 Odin (100%) 2003-04-20
24. BaMBOoFoReST 1727 100% 10 14:16 5:33 15:27 26:17 4.25 6.86 7.19 6.62 0.04 Pos (100%) 2003-04-19
25. Andy2k3 1727 100% 10 13:56 5:35 13:32 0:00 4.27 6.83 5.73 6.45 0.09 Pos (100%) 2003-04-20


Source: AOM.Holbert.org (WEEKLY QUIRIE), April 20, 2003.

22% of all games played in the top 25 ARE SET. Well, well, that *could* explain the 55% winning rate of SET in the grand totals. Only FOUR of the top 25 are persistant SET players. In fact, there are more THOR (5) Whores than there are SET whores. Odin too has quite the following.

I think the mass stats speak for themselves. If anything, maybe RA or ISIS need to be given the Dr. Doolittle Ability too!

Other notes: Greeks continue to Suffer. RA has been decimated (4% utilization!) however, the ISIS revival lives on! "

Now, I didn't write this but I would say the evidence is convincing.


[This message has been edited by JetSolo (edited 04-23-2003 @ 00:04 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 09:59 AM EDT (US)     31 / 109       
Yes, and if Set converts animals to attack, they have to sacrifice hunting too!><

- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
Phat Fox
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 10:03 AM EDT (US)     32 / 109       
Its not like you are gonna convert all your alimals and bring them back to your base for food. You are goin to run then in to harass villies and DIE!

AOM Titan Info.
Rating: 1650+
Civ. : #1 Thor #2 kronos #3 Odin
ESO : Blunt_69 aka CV_KiNGPiN
futurehermit
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 10:09 AM EDT (US)     33 / 109       
lol, i got hope's back in this...

monkeys need to have their frickin' hack armor reduced to below an ARMORED TROOP'S HACK ARMOR! good grief... it's a MONKEY!

and don't cry to me about not having cavalry. spear/sling own any hip/tox army already. throw in charging rhinos (u ever see a hip try to handle a rhino?) and u gotta problem...

set will STILL be great if u reduce the monkey's hack armor, and do something *slight* to hamper the animal-massing ability of set in archaic. hey, if u're not creating regular troops in classical, that just ain't right... everybody else has to

oh yeah, i saw hope beat set by bolting the priest in archaic. that's a really good counter to set. however, zeus is pretty weak unless in the hands of a pro like hope.

(i know u'll respond by saying set is weak unless in the hands of a pro too; however, seems to me like set adds about 100 pts to ur non-set rating... u DEF. can't say the same thing about zeus...)

fh

hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 10:12 AM EDT (US)     34 / 109       
First of all, Set is weak unless in the hands of a pro too ;p.

AND gameplay over realism. Even PW_Darknight agrees with me on this one and the ES people too ><

Oh yeah, Monkey die in one hit to villagers, 1 hit or two to Military >< they have only 45 hps!>< (even less?i forgot)


- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!

[This message has been edited by hades27 (edited 04-23-2003 @ 10:13 AM).]

futurehermit
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 10:24 AM EDT (US)     35 / 109       
umm...

yes gameplay > realism, no question...

however, when 20 monkeys wander into ur base r u gonna take 20 villies off resources to kill them?

and 45hp x 20 is a lot of hp in early classical.

they need their hack armor reduced. WHY do they even HAVE that much hack armor in the FIRST place? villies kill them with pierce, right?

fh

hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 10:33 AM EDT (US)     36 / 109       
If they monkeys go into your base, the Towers will finish them off before you can finish saying DIE!. Also, you dont have to take 20 vills, just take ONE vil and use it to kill animals.

They have hack armor so infantry dont kill them too fast, thus, making SET weakest of all Civs!><


- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
ColdWind2Valhala
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 11:19 AM EDT (US)     37 / 109       
99% of people who say set is overpowered are prob norse whiners who can't forward build, then they have no clue what to do, lol

[This message has been edited by ColdWind2Valhala (edited 04-23-2003 @ 11:20 AM).]

BSR
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 11:43 AM EDT (US)     38 / 109       
Been here, said this:

1. Archaic conversion times for large animals should be slightly increased,

2. Pop costs for some animals are too low since 1.03, and

3. Some animals (apes) have too much hack armor.

That's all, really. Fix those, and you leave Set viable (and dangerous) but fair.

-BSR

futurehermit
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 11:47 AM EDT (US)     39 / 109       
ummm not to say hope is a whiner but, from what i've seen, hope generally plays zeus, is a 2k player, and has posted here that set is REALLY tough to beat at the 2k level...

if it's a balanced game, this shouldn't be the case. at the 2k level, 1 civ shouldn't stand out as being harder to beat than another.

if set is the WORST civilization...

why are so many people turning to set AND defending him so hard???

most bandwagon jumpers don't bandwagon jump to the underdog

fh

LegolasTheElf
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 12:08 PM EDT (US)     40 / 109       
Correction:
It's an ape of Set not a monkey. This may be stupid but apes are different from monkeys. It looks like a monkey. How would you like a hefty chimp charge you in teh face?
This is beside the point though. Apes are a little overpowered; just increase their favor cost by 1 or reduce their hack armor.
Set is a tough civ to play/beat and this post is a disguised Norse bash as Firestormz said.
It dosn't matter who said it Jet you brought it here.
I play Set and I know why he's overpowered in some ways.

"You see! That is the key! Unity after division! Why did the Greek city states survive, and defeat the mighty Persians? And so it has come to pass... Now humanity is united. But when they look back, all they will remember is your idealism, your cries for unification. The will look back at the present as an age of war and division. That is why you will survive.
And when they build their statues, they will build none for us......."
hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 12:12 PM EDT (US)     41 / 109       
Has anyone looked from a Set players point of view, that Zeus is hard to beat up too? He has bolt which can bolt the _ outta your priest!><

The only thing TOO Threatening about Set, is Archaic elephants + rhinos, otherwise, hes not too Dominate. So the ONLY fix Set really needs, is his Archaic Age. Perhaps slower Conversion time, as what some suggested. DO NOT LOWER Apes hack armor, Set will be too weak then. If you want to kill apes, just send 1 or a couple Villies with your army GEESH. Its not too hard to kill apes, just one arrow ><


- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!

[This message has been edited by hades27 (edited 04-23-2003 @ 12:26 PM).]

goodbaby
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 12:32 PM EDT (US)     42 / 109       
Set is overpowered in experts' hands.In sub 1800 range,Set is not overpowered.
When you take a look on the experts records,you will think "Oh damn,it's impossible to stop" while you look some sub 1800 record of Set,you will think "What's the bonus for Set?2 wolves killed by vills in 1 or 2 shot?".
On mfo there is a record game which Ra player claimed to beat a Set player.They are 1750 or so.After watching it I can point out a lot of mistakes that the Set player made.
Agree with BSR.
Deaconrage
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 12:35 PM EDT (US)     43 / 109       
Why is it that whenever a new patch arrives, people start moaning about an "overpowered" civ? Set is being whined about the exact same way that the Poseidon Hippikon rush was, Loki Hersir rush and the Ra FH. Wonder what the next civ will be that people keep moaning about....
hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 12:39 PM EDT (US)     44 / 109       
Set is dominant on these maps>

Anatolia, Savannah, Watering Hole, Medit

On other maps, Set players are just skillful (like me >< ) and therefore wins.


- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
DeaconRien
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 03:38 PM EDT (US)     45 / 109       
He is not overpowered in General I think,,

Just very strong (ok maybe a little overpowered) in the beginning and on Certain maps where Large animals lurk .

I think you can make an argument that Set in the later ages loses a lot of steam economy wise to other players.

I consider myself a Set player and I usually get a little nervous if I am unable to take control of my opponent by Early Heroic.


Zone Name= DeaconRien
Founding Father of the Deacon Empire

"I am the Dragon, before me you tremble"
-Francis Dolarhyde (Red Dragon 2002)

Aetius
HG Alumnus
(id: Flavius Aetius)
posted 23 April 2003 04:01 PM EDT (US)     46 / 109       
I wish everyone could experience what it's like playing 1850+ games. If some of you guys were able to, then I believe you'd have entirely different opinions on Set. =/

<--Aetius-->
<--Ex Angel-->
<--eX Clan - Support HG-->
<--ESO: eX_Aetius-->
hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 04:04 PM EDT (US)     47 / 109       
[brag] if anyone wants to play VS 1850s++ Set player, I'm here for ya >< Im 1900s with Set. [/brag]

- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
Aetius
HG Alumnus
(id: Flavius Aetius)
posted 23 April 2003 04:09 PM EDT (US)     48 / 109       
Hades...were you not just an 1800 player a few days ago?

<--Aetius-->
<--Ex Angel-->
<--eX Clan - Support HG-->
<--ESO: eX_Aetius-->
hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 04:17 PM EDT (US)     49 / 109       
Yeah, but Ive improved

- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
Aetius
HG Alumnus
(id: Flavius Aetius)
posted 23 April 2003 04:21 PM EDT (US)     50 / 109       
Pfft, you switch to Set and you go from 1800 to 1900 in a couple of days.

<--Aetius-->
<--Ex Angel-->
<--eX Clan - Support HG-->
<--ESO: eX_Aetius-->
hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 04:22 PM EDT (US)     51 / 109       
Because im Skilled with him!><

- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
Atirez
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 05:58 PM EDT (US)     52 / 109       
lmao ^^

quote:
set is dominant on these maps...

If Set is not overpowered then why would they be dominant, for this would mean they have an advantage over other players. So if set is not overpowered it should be just as easy/hard to beat him on Anatolio as it is on say, Ghost Lake.

Not trying to flame, just asking.

Tsunami
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 06:02 PM EDT (US)     53 / 109       
It's lame to say 'when you get to x skill level you'll see'. The only reason you start to have problems at that level is because you have hit your ability ceiling. Your meeting ppl who are finally your own skill level and you lose a few games.

The example of set vs Hades is poor, Hades is almost the worst civ and I could give plenty of examples of recorded game where Hades got owned.

Reduce sets bonuses and he'll be just a useless as the last Egypt civ to get 'toned down' (he has already been). Less than the average number of people play any of the eggies kill off set and it no one will end up playing them.

Animals are only of any use in earlier ages, they make the game more diverse (no cav), and set has a slow econ which the animals barely make up for. While set is still in archaic the Norse and Greek have hit classic and immediately start making military.



Ignorance is never an excuse for not having and opinion
I don't want to alarm anyone, but it's time to panic

ESO names: au_skeuu; skeuu;
Erags
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 07:14 PM EDT (US)     54 / 109       
ok all. Set is overpowered. Unless you're 1850+ or have seen a few recorded games, you don't know what you're talking about. And PLEASE, don't use the vni_rulez vs mr414 example. That was a CHEAP game. Pay attention to the bug abuse going on. Attack with longboats, fight, attack with hersirs. And have you seen the Shiautz vs Cutty_Ranks game? He just boxed him in!

Basically, set isn't going to be overpowered at ALL at lower levels, simply too difficult. I've tried playing Set, and I get like...6:30+ Classical times with poor economy. But once you get higher, and microing is second nature...game over. And lots of players (like me) realize that there's simply no point in them trying to play set until they get better, which explains the 9% percentage (and the fact that those stats are from AoM first came out). IMO, the best thing to do is something someone mentioned in the beginning of this post, not sure who it was..Tone set down a bit, but only a bit. The game is gonna be damn hard to balance perfectly, and if ES is going to have a best god, they might as well make it a more difficult god.

Artemis_Fowl
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 07:37 PM EDT (US)     55 / 109       
Set is definitely overpowered, I say. I mean, those apes are strong. With those apes or other converted animals (awesome scouting)you can easily find the other persons scout and kill him. And if you are playing against a Norse user, well then, its even easier to beat him. I didnt like it when they changed it so set's animals cant be countered by heroes.

BTW, I bet the next overpowered civ will be Hades, though I wish it wasn't.(I'm a Hades player )Lol. I used to play Loki, I thought he was cool, but then the patch came and I switched civs, to avoid flamers against Loki. My order of civ switches is:Hades,Loki,Isis,Hades. My current rating is 1752.(I think)

Jetsolo is always looking for ways to flame against Norse. Make a thread saying you dont like zeus, and he will accuse you of being a heavy Norse user and trying to nerf another civ.


Practice makes perfect,but nobody's perfect,so why practice?
"We strive to utilize a variety of techniques to accomplish a broad spectrum of results towards the bottom line."

Silva_bulet
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 08:30 PM EDT (US)     56 / 109       
Jet.....ah nevermind its not worth my time

On your point that odin is overpowerd because alot of people use him but set isnt becuase no-one used him? Thats screwd what if everyone suddenly started to use say Ra, or thor, then would they be overpowered becuase they're popular....i dont think so.

hades27
Mortal
posted 23 April 2003 09:01 PM EDT (US)     57 / 109       
Apes strong? They die in one hit. Especially vs Villies.

- BITE MY SHINY METAL ASS!!
ESO: IamHades27

Winner of the least favorite forumer AoMH's award 2002!!
LKS_Plutonium
Mortal
posted 24 April 2003 00:27 AM EDT (US)     58 / 109       
I know LKS_Cyanide quite well. We worked together for many years at university in Canada on game theory and stat analysis. When he heard that somebody quoted his whole post from MFO, he was impressed. He conveys his thanx.

When I told him about some of the flames, he told me that that is why he won't post a HeavenGames. The people don't actually read what he types. I asked him if he'd write a reply and come over, but he won't do it. So oh well.

'Nide usually uses SPSS on electoral data; and he's very perceptive at looking for correlations between data sets. This wasn't some of his best work because of the limitations imposed by aom.holbert.org. To do a perfect job, he'd have to use linear regression across the whole of ESO database. The whole table would have to be then loaded into SPSS.

I'm pretty sure ESO does this type of analysis.

However, you have to understand what 'Nide was in no way making ironclad statements. He was merely pointing out quite a few facts from the data.

First off, the assertion that SET is overpowered overall is false, and there are several facts to support this. The fact alone that, if you're a capitalist, you're forced to accept that people vote with their feet. The utilization rate of Odin far exceeds that of SET.

Second off, SET does require more skill than others to play. The data doesn't proove that, but that comes from normative experience. I'm not quite sure what measurements you'd use...as even 'TC Efficientcy' wouldn't be conclusive.

Third off, several ppl say that all games above 1950 are SET. The Weekly top 25 paints a very different picture.

Fourth off, SET's at a greater disadvantage on more maps than it has an advantage on. The average across all the maps is not available, but it would be useful to see the win rates in relation to all the civs, again, this is where linear regression would really, really come in handy.


Feel free to flame all you want. It'll just reinforce our impression of this community.

JetSolo
Mortal
posted 24 April 2003 01:03 AM EDT (US)     59 / 109       

Quote:

When he heard that somebody quoted his whole post from MFO, he was impressed. He conveys his thanx.

No problem, it was the right thing to do. He made some great points and started a good debate on AOMH. Tell him we say "Thanks" for his time in researching these facts.

"Jet"

The Golden Arm
Mortal
posted 24 April 2003 01:38 AM EDT (US)     60 / 109       
omg, so a FREE Rhino Taking out a House, and an Anubite while getting showered with stones and stabed with Spears is FAIR

Man whatever your smoking Jet i want some.


ESO =AoA_Disarm_,pR150n_53X
Other Nicks IamDisarm ,When_Apes_Attack ,Run_With_Scissors ,Testament ,The_Golden_Arm ,
Have no way as way
Have no limitations as limitations - Bruce Lee

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