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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » A question about RA for the ES folks.
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Topic Subject:A question about RA for the ES folks.
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DClay
Mortal
posted 25 April 2003 00:40 AM EDT (US)         
Are you guys going to give the priest a higher empowerment rate in future patch?? Ra is really pathetic. I've been playing exclusively RA for over a week and all things considered (God powers, econ, military) he is just aweful. Ra is the least used civ and for good reason, has the worse winning percentage with only Zeus even close to losing as much as RA. Ra was designed to be an Econ powerhoue with average God powers but now Ra just has a decent Econ , same crappy GPs , and their unit bonus comes from the expensive Migdol. I just find it hard to beleive that you guys STILL think RA is just fine and dandy. There is only one change We want thats all we ask ONE CHANGE. increase the priest empowerment rate 10% is too low. 15% or 20% should be more like it.
AuthorReplies:
Mokon
Mortal
posted 25 April 2003 02:14 PM EDT (US)     31 / 89       
No I play agaist ra which demostrates his eco....... and i listen to ppl like es who say that HE is tried for the best with two others.....

thanx mokon


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  • JetSolo
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 02:19 PM EDT (US)     32 / 89       
    I really don't know why people think is underpowered?

    He can still do a Ra FH in 7:20 constantly.

    The downside to this is that he can no longer get a military as quickly as before, the midgol uprades are just to expensive - when you have to build barraks and upgrade regular units because someone attacked at sub 7 minute times.

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 02:23 PM EDT (US)     33 / 89       
    found it

    Quoted from ES_Vega :


    About the egypt issue: We do hardcore unit tests and economy tests, and still Ra was one of the top 3 civs in the game. Most peeps arent seeing this because probably of the set issue

    I think that the best proof one can give... their the experts at balenceing

    thanx mokon


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  • goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 02:25 PM EDT (US)     34 / 89       
    Isis can do a 5:30 FH,so what?
    FH<> victory.
    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 02:27 PM EDT (US)     35 / 89       
    ra can do a 720 fh with a good military that gets bonuses while isis doesnt get the bonus.....

    Mokon | | | AoE3 Rate 2200~ | | |
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  • goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 02:43 PM EDT (US)     36 / 89       
    I have said,mostly ES has good credit on their words.But this one,I think it's not.

    So do you know what's the purpose of testing? It's prevent bugs happening when it's really used.
    ES developers are experts of game development(AO serier is awesome!) but they cant avoid bugs in the game.They's why patches come out.
    ES game balance engineers are expert ongame balance.That's why when the game is out most people can play it,but it's not 100% balanced.These testers' words have more credit than most other players but again you should know the purpose of balance testing and balance patches is make the game perfectly balanced,that's mean all civs have a 50% winning percentage.Now the fact that Ra/Zeus with 45% winning rate and Poseidon/Set/Odin has 53% winning rate shows the game is not perfect balanced.
    If ES employee's words have 99% creditbility,the fact has 100%.

    I hope ES can also take a look at this post.I hope they can have more communication with the community,with the players,top player,inter player and rookies.They should watch the site http://aom.holbert.org/stats.php?user=AOM&matchType=ZS_Supremacy&timePeriod=ZS_Monthly&qu ery=st&tz=+1 more than anybody else and make patches based on the fact.ES's last patch is quite good but is not perfect.Hope next ES's patch could be better and and the game much more balanced.

    DeaconRien
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 03:30 PM EDT (US)     37 / 89       
    Here guys, let me tell you my experiences with Ra,

    I general play Eggies and Poseidon btw.

    For the last 2 weeks I have been playing a lot of Ra trying to see if he is still viable. My original Rating was 1780 with Set/Poseidon.

    Since I have been playing Ra I win about 35% and Lose about 65%.

    Yesterday (you can go check if you do not believe me) I lost to a Brazilian player (odin) you literally controlled me for our entire 30 minutes game. I thought it was one of my best performances with Ra but somehow I felt Stuck in Neutral, unable to shift it to the next level.

    After the game,, I asked the player (out of my own fustration now) how I lost that game.

    His words paralized me. He said "You played Ra". He began to tell me that I really did nothing wrong.

    My Conclusion with Ra is this- His Classical is horendous. His econ is great but it takes time to get it going and time is not what Ra has (rush). His Classical Units are terrible and so are his God powers. His God powers aren't any better in Heroic too.

    Once in Herioc things get better but still not good enough. His Chariots and Camals are no where near what the use to be. Infact I believe there was just a post in the Strategy section that proved that Camals are rarely a effective counter.

    Mythic is where Ra Shines, Especially with Horus cause of Ra's cheaper Momuments. You should have no problem here researching the necessary techs you need to be competitive.


    My advice.. Play Ra in Team games, he is a better team God then he is a 1vs1 God. I know ES_Vega believes Ra is very good, but the majority of eggie players and inters/experts (I'm afraid) will tell you different.


    Zone Name= DeaconRien
    Founding Father of the Deacon Empire

    "I am the Dragon, before me you tremble"
    -Francis Dolarhyde (Red Dragon 2002)

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 03:36 PM EDT (US)     38 / 89       
    win percentages don't mean much..... let me give u an example...


    Break Down Overall
    ------------------
    Civ 1 is used 30% of the time and loses 20% of the time
    Civ 2 is used 30% of the time and loses 20% of the time
    Civ 3 is used 40% of the time and loses 10% of the time

    So lets just forget about civ 3 but acording to the overall Civ 1 and Civ 2 are balance.

    Break Down by Skill
    -----------------
    50% of newbs use civ 1 and loses 35% of the time
    10% of newbs use civ 2 and loses 5% of the time
    40% of newbs use civ 3 and loses 10% of the time
    10% of experts use civ 1 and loses 5% of the time
    50% of experts use civ 2 and loses 35% of the time
    40% of experts use civ 3 and loses 10% of the time

    However look at the expert games.... They are the ones that matter. The expert games demostrate that civ one is WAY overpowered.

    The situation is similar with Ra. After 1.04 the experts left for loki since loki's rush is good vs Ra and now all the inters and expert think Ra is underpowered...... The newbs which can't adapt to Ra's style are still playing him because they have read all the guides and are giving him the bad win percentages.

    Thanx Mokon


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  • Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 03:39 PM EDT (US)     39 / 89       
    DeaconRien

    once again ra is fine..... he probably just doesn't fit ur style

    thanx mokon


    Mokon | | | AoE3 Rate 2200~ | | |
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  • goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 03:42 PM EDT (US)     40 / 89       
    Mokon you made me laugh.
    First you suppose most players on ES are newbies.
    Then you suppose inters and experts dont think ra is underpowered.

    None of your assumption has proof.

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 03:47 PM EDT (US)     41 / 89       
    yes most ppl on eso are newbs...... the lower the rate the denser it gets until go below 1500

    Quote:

    Then you suppose inters and experts dont think ra is underpowered.

    I did't say that but if you look at how he performs in games its demostrates that he is not underpowered

    thanx mokon


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  • Flavius_Antony
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 03:54 PM EDT (US)     42 / 89       
    Chichiri's records... Need I say more? Go under the records section and then go under Ra. Most of these games are after the Ra nerf! I have been playing Ra exclusively for about a month and have little or no difficulty winning. I currently rank 1750 with Ra but I played L_Clan_Shadowz (2020) in a 2 vs 2 and defeated him with only a little help from my ally L_Clan_Destiny. His GPs are useless if you use them wrong... Duh! Shifting Sands can transport a few enemy villagers to your base so you can kill them or you can transport a raiding *cough* party *cough* into the heart of his economy. Locust Swarm is just plain deadly especially if you win the water and then swarm his farming. I finish with this statement...

    Ra is merely disregarded because he is a challenge to play. He shall return and when he does none shall stand before him!


    ESO: "LKS_Phalanx" "Flavius_Gallus" "Flavius_Antony" "Flavius_Tiberius"
    Rank: Zeus (1850) Isis (1880) Odin (1850)
    NIB
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:15 PM EDT (US)     43 / 89       
    Why ra isnt attractive now:

    1. Rain is pretty useless and most ppl save it for late classical or combine it with locust swarm. Anyway it doesnt help you much since most games are over before that.

    2. Priest empowering is totally useless now.

    3. Midgol units are nerfed and their upgrades cost tons of resources. Sounds pretty silly to me why would some1 change to midgol units even if he is ra. He will have to pay like a trillion resources just to make midgol units decent.

    4. He doesnt have anubis which IMO is the best egyptian classical god.

    As you can see Ra's main characteristics ARE USELESS. So why would some1 use ra and not isis for example or set? I think ES should change priest empower to 15% and reduce midgol unit upgrade costs.

    Why did ES nerf midgol units in the first place. Give their strength back so that camels can actually stand against jarls. Ra isnt as sucky as ppl think but i simply dont see why would some1 use ra and not isis.


    ESO name : Relaxing

    Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

    Matei
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:16 PM EDT (US)     44 / 89       
    Ra has a much better economy than Set and Isis, for sure.

    Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
    NIB
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:21 PM EDT (US)     45 / 89       

    Quote:

    Ra has a much better economy than Set and Isis, for sure

    And why is that??? Isis gets cheaper upgrades. Set is getting free army(those apes are damn cheap). And Ra gets what? Priest empowering is totally useless and only complete noobs make priests to empower resource camps since priest cost way too many resources/population for what the offer. Pharaoh empower is slightly stronger(25% instead of 20%) but still.

    Stop reading old guides about how uber economy ra had. Now ra has crappy economy.


    ESO name : Relaxing

    Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:23 PM EDT (US)     46 / 89       
    NiB he has a very good eco.... Look above i explain it.....

    Oh also foxelite before he left aom still used priest to empower.... is he a newb


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  • NIB
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:33 PM EDT (US)     47 / 89       
    Mokon ok you go ahead and spend 100gold/2 population for a 10% increase. Show me a record of a Ra player that is above 1900 rating and made priests for empowering during the last 1 month.

    The fact that an expert made priests just after they were nerfed doesnt mean that they were any good. Obviously the expert didnt manage to adapt. After all foxelite rarely made any priests for empowering only even before they get nerfed.


    ESO name : Relaxing

    Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:36 PM EDT (US)     48 / 89       
    later on yes they arn't as eff. but early on they are like the fishing ships..... they are an extra bonus

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  • goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:37 PM EDT (US)     49 / 89       
    Well,mokon,let me analyze your logic.
    1.Most people on eso are newbies/rookies.
    2.Inters and experts think Ra is not underpowered.

    Let's split all players into two groups:Newbies and experienced players.According to your words,more than 50% are newbies(unexperienced players).Let's say it's 50%.
    I assume newbies choose god randomly(since they dont know which is better,and if you have different idea,you can tell).so 50% of players choose Ra at a random probability 11%,that's over all players,5.5% will choose to play Ra.
    Unfortunetely,there are 4% player choose play Ra at all.
    Well,I assume it's offset(please notice your assumption 1 already has problem but I discard it).There are still a few players like me playing Ra anyway.There are still some inters and experts playing Ra,but...VERY FEW.
    So why there are few experienced players play as Ra?Much less than any of other civs? Experienced players dont know the power of Ra?Experienced players dont know Ra's bonus well? I dont think so.Even a player like me can tell a lot about Ra and even a player like you cant play Ra at all can tell Ra's bonus very detailly.So what's reason that experienced player dont play as Ra? Dont tell me Egypt is boring or something like that.I tell you the anwser:Ra is underpowered.Just like before patch 1.03,why a lot people play Ra.simple and straight,Ra is powerful.More powerful than other civs so called overpowered.Now it's less powerful than other civ so it's underpowered.

    I like to tell things by truth,by figure,by logic.If you can explain things by such things,you get my credit.

    goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:43 PM EDT (US)     50 / 89       
    Mokon,I have said in the above post that the empowering bonus is very little.Before you get popped.It's a bonus,but not as significant as other civ bonus.For example,-10% cost of cavalry is a better bonus.
    Also please notice in the calculation I made above is assume I have 10 on gold and 5 on wood all the time from 6:00 to 11:00 which is not correct.The really accurate number should be less than that.
    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:48 PM EDT (US)     51 / 89       
    first of all most newbs choose the civ which they see experts play

    second i didn't say 50% of ppl pn eso are newbs i said 50% OF newbs.... even thougt 50% of ppl probably are newsb (1700 or lower)

    Quote:

    For example,-10% cost of cavalry is a better bonus.

    yes it is a good bonus but egy all rdy has that figured in.... their units are very cheap


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  • goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 04:58 PM EDT (US)     52 / 89       
    Mokon,give me the definetion of "Most".
    I think by saying most,means >="50%".

    I dont want to talk about the cheap units,since by cheap,they are weak.By weak,you can say they counter,for counter,i say you can counter counter..... etc.

    Talk about your logic please.
    So what's your defenition of "Most".

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    yes most ppl on eso are newbs...... the lower the rate the denser it gets until go below 1500

    Quote:

    Then you suppose inters and experts dont think ra is underpowered.

    I did't say that but if you look at how he performs in games its demostrates that he is not underpowered

    thanx mokon
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Matei
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 05:30 PM EDT (US)     53 / 89       

    Quote:

    Isis gets cheaper upgrades. Set is getting free army(those apes are damn cheap). And Ra gets what? Priest empowering is totally useless and only complete noobs make priests to empower resource camps since priest cost way too many resources/population for what the offer. Pharaoh empower is slightly stronger(25% instead of 20%) but still.


    Set's free army is not an economy. In fact he has almost undoubtably the worst economy in the game. Isis's cheaper techs applies mostly to millitary units, and the most you'll save on economic upgrades is 100-200 resources over the entire game (and only about 50 by late Classical). Having Hunting dogs cost 10 less gold and wood is hardly a major economic boost.

    Ra's Pharaoh empower rate is 25%, which is a great boost throughout Archaic, but in addition he can create Priests at the same time as he is creating villagers and thus gather resources even faster. This is similar to making fishing boats and villagers at the same time - it leads to exponential growth. When he reaches full pop and decides that 2 villagers are better than 1 empowering priest, he can just send the Priest attacking, but until then it's a nice boost. He also gets an economic GP that provides a huge boost to farming over a pretty long period of time (it may be considered similar to Prosperity, though usually you get 1000 more food from Rain and maybe 500 gold from Prosperity, depending on when you use them).


    Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.

    [This message has been edited by Matei (edited 04-25-2003 @ 05:33 PM).]

    goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 05:48 PM EDT (US)     54 / 89       
    Please notice normally you create at most 2 more priest to empower which gives you 1.5 vill seconds.It works for a limited time.The way is similar to the fish boats but the amount is far less.
    RoD_ReaVer
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 05:48 PM EDT (US)     55 / 89       
    ra is still the weakest (hades right next to him) because of his minor gods, he dont get serpents or ancestors so he has little defense or bonus power....
    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 05:53 PM EDT (US)     56 / 89       
    defense stinks..... offense is the way to go

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  • iamgameguy
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 06:12 PM EDT (US)     57 / 89       

    Quote:

    Chichiri's records... Need I say more? Go under the records section and then go under Ra. Most of these games are after the Ra nerf!

    on his sie he says that ra has nothing in classic and not to try a FH...what does that leave you with? a fast mythic?

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 06:13 PM EDT (US)     58 / 89       
    ra can do fh and classical fighting fine........

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  • goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 06:14 PM EDT (US)     59 / 89       
    Not kidding,but I really find when Ra reached Myth age,it's very hard to stop Ra.
    Of course it's impossible to do it in 1v1.
    In 3v3 game,I can do a fast mythic age at 11:00 or so and cast tornado+locust warm+ shift sand on one opponent and the rest game is virtually a 3v2 game.
    goodbaby
    Mortal
    posted 25 April 2003 06:16 PM EDT (US)     60 / 89       
    A civ with 4% use and 44% winning rate is fine,then poseidon/odin/Set with more than 10% use,53% winning rate is not fine.
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