You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Strategy and General Discussion
Moderated by Yeebaagooon, TAG

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.202 replies, Off-Topic
Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Bruce Shelley's religion comment
Bottom
Topic Subject:Bruce Shelley's religion comment
« Previous Page  1 ··· 4 5 6 7  Next Page »
MurphGuitar
Mortal
(id: Sir William of Pork)
posted 22 August 2001 04:25 PM EDT (US)         
Quote:
Keep in mind that Christianity and the other active religions today are mythologies.

This was copied and pasted directly from Mr. Shelley's Gamespot UK interview. Is anyone else surprised by this? I'm an atheist, and I certainly agree with him, but I'm still surprised he said it. Could it have been a typo? Do you suppose he meant something different when he said "mythology" that what we typically consider it to mean?


Defy me at your peril

[This message has been edited by Sir William of Pork (edited 08-22-2001 @ 04:26 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
eifersucht
Mortal
posted 05 September 2001 08:28 PM EDT (US)     151 / 202       
Quote:
What about the bombardier beetle? Christian scientists have used that species to show that evolution can't explain all animal life, haven't they? How could the chemicals and mechanisms the beetle uses to make explosions have evolved in stages? And how could a mutation have caused the mechanism to just appear at once? I accept evolution myself, I've just always wondered about that.

Yes, it is quite a famous example.
First point is actually addressed in my response to the eye/irreducible complexity bit above. [Basically the idea of 'removing the scaffolding'].
A more detailed response to the bombadier beetle is present in Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker": [Btw, this makes even more sense if you read the entire book, or better yet, all of his books. He really is brilliant at expressing possibly confusing concepts in a clear and concise manner]
Quote:
Anti-evolution propaganda is full of alleged examples of complex systems that 'could not possibly' have passed through a gradual series of intermediates. This is often just another case of the rather pathetic 'Argument from Personal Incredulity' that we met in Chapter 2. Immediately after the section on the eye, for example, The Neck of the Giraffe goes on to discuss the bombardier beetle, which


"squirts a lethal mixture of hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide into the face of its enemy. These two chemicals, when mixed together, literally explode. So in order to store them inside its body, the Bombardier Beetle has evolved a chemical inhibitor to make them harmless. At the moment the beetle squirts the liquid out of its tail, an anti-inhibitor is added to make the mixture explosive once again. The chain of events that could have led to the evolution of such a complex, coordinated and subtle process is beyond biological explanation on a simple step-by-step basis. The slightest alteration in the chemical balance would result immediately in a race of exploded beetles."
A biochemist colleague has kindly provided me with a bottle of hydrogen peroxide, and enough hydroquinone for 50 bombardier beetles. I am now about to mix the two together. According to the above, they will explode in my face. Here goes...

Well, I'm still here. I poured the hydrogen peroxide into the hydroquinone, and absolutely nothing happened. It didn't even get warm. Of course I knew it wouldn't: I'm not that foolhardy! The statement that 'these two chemicals, when mixed together, literally explode', is, quite simply, false, although it is regularly repeated throughout creationist literature. If you are curious about the bombardier beetle, by the way, what actually happens is as follows. It is true that it squirts a scaldingly hot mixture of hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone at enemies. But hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone don't react violently together unless a catalyst is added. This is what the bombardier beetle does. As for the evolutionary precursors of the system, both hydrogen peroxide and various kinds of quinones are used for other purposes in body chemistry. The bombardier beetle's ancestors simply pressed into different service chemicals that already happened to be around. That's often how evolution works.


And here's a pick of it for anyone who is unfamiliar with this amazing animal.

Historical data show a strong correlation between US involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorst attacks against the United States. - CATO Institute, 1998
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted might not see him. We draw the magic cap down over our own eyes and ears so as to deny that there are any monsters - Karl Marx
…crasez l'inf‚me


Clarissimus
Mortal
posted 05 September 2001 08:38 PM EDT (US)     152 / 202       
Quote:
The creationist/evolutionist divide is not a christian/atheist divide. It is a fundamentalist extremist/most people divide. The vast majority of christians accept evolution.

Gallup has conducted polls about this. There were four options:

The Creation Position: God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.

The Theistic Evolution Position: Man has developed over millions of years form less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation.

The Atheistic Evolution Opinion: Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. No God participated in this process.

No Opinion.

These were the results:

1982: 44%/38%/9%/9%
1991: 47%/40%/9%/4%
1993: 47%/35%/11%/7%

I know polls have some error, but I don't see your "vast majority." Also remember that the theory of evolution contradicts the bible dozens of times.

Maybe you don't care about the BBT or the origin of life, but shouldn't a theory be wholistic? I'm not asking to be omniscient (unlike someone I know), but if you have no idea how your idea got started, how do you know it got started at all?


Responses to your responses
8.
A partial eye is no good. Without an optic nerve to the brain (or some such devise to relay the info), a lense, pinhole, etc. is useless and will give no advantage.

9.
Why aren't there partially-organs today? Shouldn't almost every species have a half-artery or partial limb? Has evolution today stopped?

10.
The duckbilled platypus has no place on the evolutionary tree. There are no fossils or living animals like it.

11.
Sure, altruism to a species might make sense, but you didn't give answer to altruism to other species.

13.
Apes' grunts and dolphin's squaks are communication, but not language. True language has vocabulary and grammar.

Your claim that language had 200,000 years to evolve is circular reasoning. And why would it evolve and then devolve?

14.
Feral children do not speak. Humans speak only when taught by other humans. Who taught the first human to speak?

15.
Let me rephrase this one. Maybe you didn't understand. I wasn't trying on confuse anyone.


15. Codes and Programs
Codes are produced only by intelligence. The genetic material that controls the proceeses of life is a code. It needs an elaborate system of transmission, translation, and duplication to be useful.

16. Information
No isolated nontrivial system has ever been observed to spontaneously increase in information content. All scientific observations are consistant with this generalization.

The Arguments for Evolution Are Outdated and Often Illogical

17. A Common Designer
Similarities between forms of life do not have to imply a common ancestor, they may imply a common desinger. Experiments have shown that sometimes simliar structures are controlled by different genes or developed from different parts of embryos.

18. Vestigial Orangs
TAs medical knowledge has increased, functions have been discovered for every organ (such as the appendix.)he absense of true vestigial orgnas implies that evolution never happened.

19. Two-Celled Life?
Single-celled exists, but there is no known life with 2,3,4, or 5 cells. Even life from 6-20 cells are parasites and need a host with complex functions such as digestion and respiration to live. Where are the transitional forms.

20. Embryology
As an embryo develops, it does not repeat an evolutionary sequence. It is know known that Ernst Haeckel deliberately falsified his drawings.

21. Rapid Burial
Fossils all the world show evidence of a rapid burial: animals are buried in mass graves in twisted and contorted positions. Sometimes fossils are buried over more than one layer of sedimentary rock (I am looking at a photograph of one right now.) The fossil record is not evidence of slow change.

22. Parallel Strata
The earth's sedimentary layers typically lie parallel to each other. If these had been deposited over millions of years, erosion would have cut many channels. One can conclude that almost all the sedimentary layers were deposited rapidly, not over long periods of time.

23. Fossil Gaps
If evolution happened, the fossil record would show continuous and gradual changes from the top layer to the bottom layer. Actually, many gaps appear throughtout the fossil record. The fossil record has been studied so thoroughly that it is safe to assume that these gaps are real; they will never be filled.

[This message has been edited by Clarissimus (edited 09-05-2001 @ 09:07 PM).]

eifersucht
Mortal
posted 05 September 2001 09:02 PM EDT (US)     153 / 202       
Quote:
Gallup has conducted polls about this. There were four options:

This was on Americans only, right?

I should point out that creationism really only exists in the US (With a few small patches in Australia, somewhere, but nowhere near as large).

Quote:
Also remember that the theory of evolution contradicts the bible dozens of times.

So does the bible, yet most christians believe it.


Historical data show a strong correlation between US involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorst attacks against the United States. - CATO Institute, 1998
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted might not see him. We draw the magic cap down over our own eyes and ears so as to deny that there are any monsters - Karl Marx
…crasez l'inf‚me


fhertlein
Mortal
posted 05 September 2001 09:06 PM EDT (US)     154 / 202       
I love Black Sabbath more than you do WoadRaider.
Clarissimus
Mortal
posted 05 September 2001 09:08 PM EDT (US)     155 / 202       
Quote:
Quote:
Also remember that the theory of evolution contradicts the bible dozens of times.


So does the bible, yet most christians believe it.

Too bad you can't name any to support your statement.

eifersucht
Mortal
posted 05 September 2001 09:44 PM EDT (US)     156 / 202       
Quote:
So does the bible, yet most christians believe it.

Too bad you can't name any to support your statement.


1. Support of my statement.
2. I don't believe that evolution does contradict the bible. Only those who are ridiculously simple and take the bible literally have a problem
Why literalism is flawed:
Language is imperfect. Complex concepts are restricted due to having to fit them to words. This is why art exists. Art attempts to bypass language and simply inspire the same feeling/thoughts in the respondant.
Anyway, basically, the more complex the concept, the harder it is to put into words. Explain love to someone who has no idea what it is. Explain the feeling you have when betrayed by someone who trust.
Now, those who are literalists are basically saying that morality, spirituality and god are extremely simple concepts. That is clearly absurd. They are the biggest questisons, the most difficult. That is why christians talk of the need for the 'holy spirit' to help them 'understand' the bible. Do they mean they are unable to read, or understand simple words? No! They mean they are trying to get to the deeper meaning.

For an example of this concept, look at what appears to be a straightforward concept: "Thou shalt not kill".
Do you take that literally? Can you kill insects? How about an animal, in self defence? A human in self-defence?

Does it mean 'thou shalt not murder'? If so, what is 'murder'? It is usually something along the lines of "an unjustified killing" or "an illegal killing". Now you have to examine what is 'unjustified', and whether illegality is a reasonable measure of morality. If illegality is the key, then god is sanctioning any legal system that exists, which clearly cannot be the case.

So lets say it's dealing with 'unjustified killing'. You now have to examine the basis of justification, which is a more complex moral question than you began with. It clearly is asking for the use of reason in your morality, even if in interepreting other biblical passages.

Basically, the point is that the surefire way to not understand God is to be a literalist. Literalists think that god tries to decieve man with evidence opposed to his word. Literalists think god is petty and stupid enough to create a poor situation then unjustly deal with it. They degrade god to be on their level, rather than to try and lift themselves up to his.


Historical data show a strong correlation between US involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorst attacks against the United States. - CATO Institute, 1998
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted might not see him. We draw the magic cap down over our own eyes and ears so as to deny that there are any monsters - Karl Marx
…crasez l'inf‚me


[This message has been edited by eifersucht (edited 09-06-2001 @ 09:39 PM).]

Cian McGuire
Member
posted 05 September 2001 10:34 PM EDT (US)     157 / 202       
Quote:
Maybe you don't care about the BBT or the origin of life, but shouldn't a theory be wholistic?

Einstein searched for a Universal Theorum, should we take his lack of success to mean that all related theories are flawed as well?


In vino veritas
eifersucht
Mortal
posted 05 September 2001 11:39 PM EDT (US)     158 / 202       
Quote:
Maybe you don't care about the BBT or the origin of life, but shouldn't a theory be wholistic? I'm not asking to be omniscient (unlike someone I know), but if you have no idea how your idea got started, how do you know it got started at all?


Of course not. Are the laws of motion invalid for the same reason?
The purpose of science is to explain phenomena. It should be broken into areas that are necessarily connected.
Evolution is correct regardless of how the universe came into existance.
Quote:
A partial eye is no good. Without an optic nerve to the brain (or some such devise to relay the info), a lense, pinhole, etc. is useless and will give no advantage.

You didn't read what I provided. A partial eye is not a moden eye with 1 part removed. It is a less advanced eye.
Quote:

Why aren't there partially-organs today? Shouldn't almost every species have a half-artery or partial limb? Has evolution today stopped?

1. There are partial-organs. The wings I showed are partial.
2. WTF is this about a half-artery? Nobody says any such thing has ever existed. There is no reason for it to exist, either. I'm not sure why you even mention it...
Quote:
The duckbilled platypus has no place on the evolutionary tree. There are no fossils or living animals like it

It's isolated. It is meant to be different. That is the point. I'm not sure about the validiity of the no fossil claim.
Quote:
Sure, altruism to a species might make sense, but you didn't give answer to altruism to other species.

Does it occur? If it occurs, it is unlikely to be more than 'englightened self-interest' (eg, the little fish that follow sharks benefits the shark). There will be no case of an animal (knowingly) making itself worseoff for animals of other species.
Quote:
Apes' grunts and dolphin's squaks are communication, but not language. True language has vocabulary and grammar.

Your claim that language had 200,000 years to evolve is circular reasoning. And why would it evolve and then devolve?


1. 'Communication but not language' is early language. The basis of modern language. As you would expect.
2. How is it circular
3. I never said it would devolve.
Quote:
Feral children do not speak. Humans speak only when taught by other humans. Who taught the first human to speak?

The first human almost certainly couldn't speak.
Quote:
15. Codes and Programs
Codes are produced only by intelligence. The genetic material that controls the proceeses of life is a code. It needs an elaborate system of transmission, translation, and duplication to be useful

The claim that codes are produced only by intelligence is baseless. It is an unsubstantiated statement.
Quote:
Similarities between forms of life do not have to imply a common ancestor, they may imply a common desinger. Experiments have shown that sometimes simliar structures are controlled by different genes or developed from different parts of embryos.

This isn't an arugment against evolution, nor does it imply creation. It is something that can be explained away.
Quote:
18. Vestigial Orangs
TAs medical knowledge has increased, functions have been discovered for every organ (such as the appendix.)he absense of true vestigial orgnas implies that evolution never happened.

There is a function for junk dna?
Anyway:
1. Evolution doesn't require vestigal organs. It explains why they may exist, not why they must exist.
2. Vestigal organs do exist. The cavefish is blind but has eyes. Vestigal organ...
Quote:
19. Two-Celled Life?
Single-celled exists, but there is no known life with 2,3,4, or 5 cells. Even life from 6-20 cells are parasites and need a host with complex functions such as digestion and respiration to live. Where are the transitional forms.

The transitional forms may well be extinct.
Quote:
20. Embryology
As an embryo develops, it does not repeat an evolutionary sequence. It is know known that Ernst Haeckel deliberately falsified his drawings.


Not an argument against evolution, or for creation.
Quote:
21. Rapid Burial
Fossils all the world show evidence of a rapid burial: animals are buried in mass graves in twisted and contorted positions. Sometimes fossils are buried over more than one layer of sedimentary rock (I am looking at a photograph of one right now.) The fossil record is not evidence of slow change.


1. The 'mass graves and contorted positions' is normal. I'm not sure where you think there is a problem there.
2. Dawson, J.W., 1868. Acadian Geology. The Geological Structure, Organic Remains, and Mineral Resources of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, 2nd edition. MacMillan and Co.: London explains why this occurs. I know creationists tend not to keep up with the latest literature, but seriously, that's going a bit far, don'tcha think?

Quote:
22. Parallel Strata
The earth's sedimentary layers typically lie parallel to each other. If these had been deposited over millions of years, erosion would have cut many channels. One can conclude that almost all the sedimentary layers were deposited rapidly, not over long periods of time.

Huh? Are you kidding me? This makes absolutely no sense at all.
1. They aren't parallel all over the place. Adjacent layers are parralel. There are differences all over the world.
2. There is massive erosion. In fact, many other creationist claims (wouldn't be surprised to see some on this very list) rely on effects of erosion.
Quote:
23. Fossil Gaps
If evolution happened, the fossil record would show continuous and gradual changes from the top layer to the bottom layer. Actually, many gaps appear throughtout the fossil record. The fossil record has been studied so thoroughly that it is safe to assume that these gaps are real; they will never be filled.

We would not expect a continual layer because fossilisation is a rare occurrance. Those conditions being rare, fossils are rare. Rare fossils mean we don't have a fossil for everything. This is exactly as we would expect.
Also, it is not 'safe to assume' that at all. New fossils are continually found, and technology may aid this in the future.
Furthermore, saying that there are gaps in the fossil record implies that what we do have is valid. Is that the case? If not, and they are all hoaxes, then why wouldn't they make the whole bunch? The claim is ridiculous when viewed from any angle.

Tip: Anything that argues 'we don't know yet so it is unknowbale' is almost certainly fraudulent.

Also: For a more detailed look into the geological bits, I suggest you post a topic in OD, and ask for Jayhawk to deal with it. He has a masters in Geo...
[I realise I might be a bit light in my dealing with this].


Historical data show a strong correlation between US involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorst attacks against the United States. - CATO Institute, 1998
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted might not see him. We draw the magic cap down over our own eyes and ears so as to deny that there are any monsters - Karl Marx
…crasez l'inf‚me


SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 05:06 PM EDT (US)     159 / 202       
Referring to the mass burials, some of this gravesites are found on top of mountians. This would suggest a masive flood, hmmmmmmmm.

Eifer you mentioned that the US is one you the only countries that has a significant portion of the population that believes creation. Also you seem to think we are too captialistic and conservative. Yet the US is THE superpower of this world and is the most successful country of the modern and post modern era. Yet you think we seem to do major things wrong with our government and beliefs of certain segments of our population. I guess we were just lucky huh?


God Bless America.

I am the state.

Cian McGuire
Member
posted 06 September 2001 05:20 PM EDT (US)     160 / 202       
Quote:
Referring to the mass burials, some of this gravesites are found on top of mountians. This would suggest a masive flood, hmmmmmmmm.

Not really.


A more plausible view is that the cultures wanted to get the 'souls' of the deceased closest to the heavens, and what better place than on top of a holy mountain?


In vino veritas
SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 06:01 PM EDT (US)     161 / 202       
Cian your telling me cultures took 1,000s of perfectly good animals and killed them at the top of a mountain? There have been mass gravesites with 100's of ppl on them. When there is a flood animals and ppl go for high ground right? I think you might be confused on the definition of plausible.

God Bless America.

I am the state.

Cian McGuire
Member
posted 06 September 2001 06:15 PM EDT (US)     162 / 202       
Sure, make sense to me- what's a better site for a god to see your toil and sacrifice than right up close? On another note, when have primitive societies ever acted in a logical manner (hell, when have societies in general acted logically), especially when worshipping their gods.

Now, those pyramids were something that made sense!

Quote:
I think you might be confused on the definition of plausible.

So let me get this straight.

Plausible is something like God crafted woman from a rib? Or that animals talked? Or that everyone who believes in the teachings of this long dead dude will have a piece of their body that cannot be found go up to a Magical Happy Place?

No wonder I'm confused...


In vino veritas
SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 07:10 PM EDT (US)     163 / 202       
Arg.... the rib thing again. Ok sure it doesn't make sense, but nothing suddenly exploding and making our universe doesn't make sense either. Ok the kind of animals found on these moutains are also large ones like elephants and dinosaurs. Could you imagine them going finding a t-rex and then pulling it up a mountain to sacrifice? I know i know you guys think the dinosaurs were long dead but there have been fosilized human and dinosaur footprints found together so don't give me that. So again i ask do you know the definition of plausible?

God Bless America.

I am the state.

Cian McGuire
Member
posted 06 September 2001 07:47 PM EDT (US)     164 / 202       
Quote:
Arg.... the rib thing again.

Well, yeah, it sorta is inconspicous and all, especially right near the beginning...

Quote:
but nothing suddenly exploding and making our universe doesn't make sense either

Then you obviously have read any of the accepted scientific literature on the subject.

Quote:
Ok the kind of animals found on these moutains are also large ones like elephants...

Sure, why not? They could lift rock squares that were several tons each all the way to the top of the Pyramids, why not drag or lead an animal up the mountain?

...dinosaurs. Could you imagine them going finding a t-rex and then pulling it up a mountain to sacrifice? I know i know you guys think the dinosaurs were long dead but there have been fosilized human and dinosaur footprints found together so don't give me that.

...

I'm stunned speechless.

Are you serious?

Have you ever read anything on the subject? Hell, I even remember a specific section in my kiddie dino book that I read in the eighties with a detailed explanation of that.

So you really believe that One Million Years B.C happened?

Man o man... I don't even know what to do. I guess I'll just let someone else pounce on this nugget.

Quote:
So again i ask do you know the definition of plausible?

Quoted from dictionary.com:
plau∑si∑ble (plŰz-bl)
adj.
Seemingly or apparently valid, likely, or acceptable; credible: a plausible excuse.

In vino veritas
Burrigan
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 08:00 PM EDT (US)     165 / 202       
Oh.

My.

God.

I can't believe this.

Quote:
Could you imagine them going finding a t-rex and then pulling it up a mountain to sacrifice?

They're not going to find a (profanity) t-rex and drag it up a (profanity) mountain. You ever take geology bud? Christ. I can't believe you can blatantly deny the facts like this! You ever read 1984? Well, congratulations, you've mastered doublethink. Humans aren't the cause of everything, you know? Those animals posessed the capability for locomtion, you ever consider the fact that maybe they WALKED up there instead of someone dragging them?

Words fail me.

SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 08:15 PM EDT (US)     166 / 202       
Damn, i just got some ppl started up. Ok, of course a dinosaur can take himself up a mountain, but why do you find a bunch of them on top of a mountian. They seem to be forced up there by water in my opinion. Honestly i have not read any of those books so how about you fill me in? And what is so unbelievible about my statement about the footprints?

God Bless America.

I am the state.

black_beserker
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 08:50 PM EDT (US)     167 / 202       
Ok, about the rib thing, not everything in the bible is literal , especially since it is translated from hebrew and greek. Most of it is true/really happend but also has a lot of symbollic meaning, and some (though not much) is purely symbollic. My Mom went to a bibal study once that explained the rib thing really well, but I don't remember exactly what was said. Woman wasn't necissarily made from a literal rib, but it means that God created woman out of mans own flesh and blood (the same flesh), this is supposed to illustrate to us how in marriage man and woman unite and become one flesh. This is comming out of my life aplication study bible so I am not making it up.

About the whole age of the earth debate, I would like to point out that both the old earth and young earth views are biblically (not sure about this spelling) accurate, it even says this in my study bible (same one). I personally believe in the old earth, and am considering theistic evolution with all this evidence, but not atheistic evolution. I just don't think the earth being only 6,000 years old makes sense. By the way, human LIKE foot prints have been found next to dinosaur foot prints. Human like does not mean human, they could some other unkown animal, forgeries, or something else.

eifersucht
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 09:42 PM EDT (US)     168 / 202       
Quote:
Referring to the mass burials, some of this gravesites are found on top of mountians. This would suggest a masive flood, hmmmmmmmm.

No it wouldn't. It would suggest that mountains were caused by folding and pushing etc etc, just as is expected. Geology is really not contentious.
Quote:
Eifer you mentioned that the US is one you the only countries that has a significant portion of the population that believes creation. Also you seem to think we are too captialistic and conservative. Yet the US is THE superpower of this world and is the most successful country of the modern and post modern era. Yet you think we seem to do major things wrong with our government and beliefs of certain segments of our population. I guess we were just lucky huh?


You do realise you have far and away the largest population of any westen nation, right?
Just clearing that up...

Historical data show a strong correlation between US involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorst attacks against the United States. - CATO Institute, 1998
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted might not see him. We draw the magic cap down over our own eyes and ears so as to deny that there are any monsters - Karl Marx
…crasez l'inf‚me


SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 09:59 PM EDT (US)     169 / 202       
I guess a large population cures all problems. One word, Russia.

Skip ahead 20 year. One word, China.


God Bless America.

I am the state.

IV1066
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 10:23 PM EDT (US)     170 / 202       
Quote:
I guess a large population cures all problems. One word, Russia. Skip ahead 20 year. One word, China.

Notice Eifer said 'the largest population of any western country'. You just mentioned two non-western countries. He wasn't saying that the largest population invariably has a better economy. He was saying that the US is so much larger than Germany or England or Japan and is almost as developed so that it obviously will be richest. If Russia or China was in the situation that W. Europe and the US are in they would probably be richer than the US, but they are less developed; therefore, their large population doesn't generate the same amount of money that the smaller, but far more stable/developed population of the US does.

SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 06 September 2001 10:50 PM EDT (US)     171 / 202       
The large population of the US is because of the US. We started out as a small nation and grew because because of the favorable situation to working class people in the united states. We took population from England, Germany, Poland, Italy, and France. So to say the US is successful because of it's population is fine, because that's of United States' doing not by luck. Just admit it, the usa is a country done right.

God Bless America.

I am the state.

eifersucht
Mortal
posted 07 September 2001 01:03 AM EDT (US)     172 / 202       
Quote:
I guess a large population cures all problems. One word, Russia.

Did I say that? No.

Quote:
The large population of the US is because of the US. We started out as a small nation and grew because because of the favorable situation to working class people in the united states. We took population from England, Germany, Poland, Italy, and France. So to say the US is successful because of it's population is fine, because that's of United States' doing not by luck. Just admit it, the usa is a country done right.

Plus the fact that it is much larger, can sustain a higher population, etc.
You simply can't have 280 million people in the UK.

Historical data show a strong correlation between US involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorst attacks against the United States. - CATO Institute, 1998
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted might not see him. We draw the magic cap down over our own eyes and ears so as to deny that there are any monsters - Karl Marx
…crasez l'inf‚me


Cian McGuire
Member
posted 07 September 2001 10:19 AM EDT (US)     173 / 202       
Quote:
Damn, i just got some ppl started up. Ok, of course a dinosaur can take himself up a mountain, but why do you find a bunch of them on top of a mountian. They seem to be forced up there by water in my opinion.

A very simplistic model of a mountain works as such:


A)
---.....---
...\.../...

Two continental platers (as designated by the straight lines, ignore the dots, they're filler) move toward each other.

B)
---..---
...\/...

They meet, and begin to push against each other.

C)

--/\--
......

Since there's no where else for these two massive plates to go, they push each other upwards.

D)
...../\.....
..../..\....
.../....\...
---.....----

Over a vast amount of geological time a mountain chain emerges.

Quote:
Honestly i have not read any of those books so how about you fill me in? And what is so unbelievible about my statement about the footprints?

*sigh*

Quote:
Just admit it, the usa is a country done right.

Wrong.

Quote:
Ok, about the rib thing, not everything in the bible is literal , especially since it is translated from hebrew and greek.

Depends who you talk to. Some people hold that the Bible is not fallible in any way, shape, or form, and that each and every verse is fiat.

It's a simple (in all of the meanings of the word) and effective way to counter arguments.

The problem with your view, b_b, is that who are you to judge where to draw the line at what is literal and what is metaphorical, and this is where many people get stuck at.

Quote:
Most of it is true/really happend

... *resists... urge... to sidetrack*

...

Quote:
My Mom went to a bibal study once that explained the rib thing really well, but I don't remember exactly what was said. Woman wasn't necissarily made from a literal rib, but it means that God created woman out of mans own flesh and blood (the same flesh), this is supposed to illustrate to us how in marriage man and woman unite and become one flesh. This is comming out of my life aplication study bible so I am not making it up.

I never would accuse you of making it up, but just because a Bible Study class says so, it does not mean anything.

Quote:
biblically (not sure about this spelling)

You got it

Quote:
it even says this in my study bible (same one)

See above .


In vino veritas
Spitfire
HG Alumnus
(id: spitfire_23)
posted 07 September 2001 11:22 AM EDT (US)     174 / 202       
you know, there is a reason why HG made an OD forum.

_________________.##@@$$$@@##._____________
______________,##@$::%$$%%::$@##.__________
____________#@$:%%000000000%%:$@#_________
___________#@$:%00'___________'00%:$@#_______
__________#@$:%0'_______________'0%:$@#______
_________#@$:%0__________________0%:$@#_____
black_beserker
Mortal
posted 07 September 2001 04:37 PM EDT (US)     175 / 202       
What is an OD forum and where is it?

Cain, nice mountain model, that was really cool!

I don't to be able to tell what is literal or symbolical in the bible, I am not a bible scholar (yet anyway ),but there are plenty of them out there who have studied the bible their entire lives and they have a pretty good Idea what is what. True, they can never be completely sure, but after spending that long anylazing everything they can be resonably sure that they are at least close to the actual meaning. Of course bible studies aren't always right, but if it is written in the bible itselfe, you can at least assume that it is a very strong possibility.

And whats with all this U.S. bashing?! THE U.S. RULES!!!!!!!


alLan Mandragoran
Mortal
posted 07 September 2001 08:56 PM EDT (US)     176 / 202       
dang this is old! ok yall lets stop all this mess! we dont need to be going through this all the time. ok? ill just say one thing, im Christian and i belive everyting in the Bible. now, evolution is just odd to me. since it is supposed to make things better and better, why are there still worms? and all those other invalid creatures that are just here? why dont THEY become something else? over thousands of years why havent apes become nething better?
Cian McGuire
Member
posted 07 September 2001 10:44 PM EDT (US)     177 / 202       
Quote:
What is an OD forum and where is it?

OD= Outside Discussions, and it is currently located at the Age of Kings Heaven, to get there, go to the main forums page here, and click on the Outside Discussions link.


Quote:
Cain, nice mountain model, that was really cool!

Thanks, I think... and I'm not named after the Biblical brother, it's Cian

Quote:
I don't to be able to tell what is literal or symbolical in the bible, I am not a bible scholar (yet anyway ),but there are plenty of them out there who have studied the bible their entire lives and they have a pretty good Idea what is what. True, they can never be completely sure, but after spending that long anylazing everything they can be resonably sure that they are at least close to the actual meaning. Of course bible studies aren't always right, but if it is written in the bible itselfe, you can at least assume that it is a very strong possibility.

But the thing about Biblical scholars is that no single one completely agrees with the rest.

You say your scholars say that some of the Bible is meant to be taken metaphorically, while I can show you a forum where a whole bunch Christians can show you their scholars say that the whole thing is literal.

One of the biggest problems in regards to achieving clarity is the age, number of interpretations, and mistakes that have been made throughout history in translation of it.

Quote:
And whats with all this U.S. bashing?! THE U.S. RULES!!!!!!!

I'm not "U.S. bashing", I just don't take the view that this is the best country in the world or that it "RULES!!!!!!!"

Quote:
dang this is old! ok yall lets stop all this mess! we dont need to be going through this all the time. ok?

No, it is not okay.

Quote:
it is supposed to make things better and better, why are there still worms?

It's not meant to make things bigger and better.

Have you ever heard the term "size isn't everything"? Well, it applies just as well to evolution as to sexual relations

The reason we still have worms is that they are perfectly suited to the niche that they exist in.

Quote:
and all those other invalid creatures that are just here? why dont THEY become something else?

"Invalid creatures"?

Quote:
over thousands of years why havent apes become nething better?

Because thousands of years isn't that long of a time, geologically speaking.

Plus, we have not been studying apes for thousands of years, who knows what slight changes they may have experienced over time?


In vino veritas
SoR_Anarchy
Mortal
posted 07 September 2001 10:47 PM EDT (US)     178 / 202       
US isn't the best huh? Well what country would you rather live in?

God Bless America.

I am the state.

eifersucht
Mortal
posted 08 September 2001 04:42 AM EDT (US)     179 / 202       
Quote:
you know, there is a reason why HG made an OD forum.

OD? What's this 'OD' you speak of?

ignore my sig

Quote:
dang this is old! ok yall lets stop all this mess! we dont need to be going through this all the time. ok? ill just say one thing, im Christian and i belive everyting in the Bible. now, evolution is just odd to me. since it is supposed to make things better and better, why are there still worms? and all those other invalid creatures that are just here? why dont THEY become something else? over thousands of years why havent apes become nething better?

The reason we "need to be going through this all the time" is because people like you still don't understand what they're talking about. I feel it's my duty to fill in the almighty gaps in the US educational system.

(btw, the reason worms still exist is because they are an effective lifeform).

Quote:
Have you ever heard the term "size isn't everything"? Well, it applies just as well to evolution as to sexual relations


Except that people actually mean it in evolution.
[on a related note, humans have far and away the largest penis/body size ratio of any of the primates, clearly showing that women are lying, ].
Quote:
US isn't the best huh? Well what country would you rather live in?

Norway, Canada, Austalia, Luxemburg, Belgium, Finland.... [not necesarily in that order].

Historical data show a strong correlation between US involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorst attacks against the United States. - CATO Institute, 1998
Perseus wore a magic cap so that the monsters he hunted might not see him. We draw the magic cap down over our own eyes and ears so as to deny that there are any monsters - Karl Marx
…crasez l'inf‚me


[This message has been edited by eifersucht (edited 09-08-2001 @ 11:10 AM).]

Cian McGuire
Member
posted 08 September 2001 10:53 AM EDT (US)     180 / 202       
Quote:
Except that people actually mean it in evolution.
.

No way?

Really?

Wow.

Quote:
US isn't the best huh? Well what country would you rather live in?

The Netherlands or any country that will completely subsidize my college education.

And I noticed you completely avoided my response about evolution. I don't mind if you drop the subject now, just make sure not to make the same incorrect points the next time you feel the need to justify Creationism or attempt to defame evolutionism.


In vino veritas
« Previous Page  1 ··· 4 5 6 7  Next Page »
You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Mythology Heaven | HeavenGames