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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Archaic is boring
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Topic Subject:Archaic is boring
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Frigrating
Mortal
posted 09 July 2003 08:47 AM EDT (US)         
It's really all about BO's. Seldom do you need to change your BO due to map variances because they are not random enough. It would be nice if the x-pack added spice to this age somehow. One thing they could do is make it so that you don't always see a gold pile or chickens/bushes in your starting LOS. Then maybe Archaic wouldn't be such a mundane charade, and god forbid, we might have to think on the spot about where to distribute our villagers, rather than follow the latest popular BO. Sure there will be a degree of whining about unfair maps, but odds are everyone's luck evens out over time. The game would be so much more fun.
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Mokon
Mortal
posted 09 July 2003 09:01 AM EDT (US)     1 / 43       
let me guess.... ur rate is under 1700? U need to adapt your bo according to EVERY map.... ppl under 1700 just follow the bo's but that is one of their problems they need to change it....

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  • Frigrating
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 09:04 AM EDT (US)     2 / 43       
    No, it's over 1800 on Hades alone on another name I won't disclose. I don't see much need to adapt a planned BO going into any map. They are not random enough.

    I think you misunderstood what my main gripe is. Of course maps are different in structure. The problem is that you pretty much know before the game starts what you're going to do in archaic if it's, say, mediterranean, since all the resources you need save a few more sheep will always be right smack by your TC. Greek medi BO - dock & wood, boat spam, sheep, wood, food, another dock, temple, gold, switch villies from food to wood/gold upon hitting classical button. BORING.

    [This message has been edited by Frigrating (edited 07-09-2003 @ 09:28 AM).]

    AgeMyth
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 09:07 AM EDT (US)     3 / 43       
    lol ....i found out that you dont even need a BO to get to 1800. Just play with the basic understanding of eco and classical times dont mean anything unless ur rushing or past the 6 min time (unless ur set or going for a FH or something)
    signalfires
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 10:07 AM EDT (US)     4 / 43       

    Quote:

    Archaic is boring


    Try playing Set, lol. Or villie rushing

    Actually on a more serious note - I know what you mean about build orders and stuff. Although even at my 1630 rating I can see different build orders are required for different maps.


    s i g n a l f i r e s
    Frigrating
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 10:51 AM EDT (US)     5 / 43       
    Yes, different BO's are required for different maps. It's not what the original point is. The point is that when you see what map it's going to be on the startup screen, you already know how archaic is going to go, primarily because they aren't random enough in the placement of gold mines, trees, bushes etc. Thus, everyone has a basic BO in mind for each map ( one BO for savanna, a different one for midguard, etc ) that always works unless you make a silly mistake. Archaic is too routine. I miss the greatest aspect of AOE. It was very random in the placement of resources, and it made you think on the spot where to distribute your villies. In AOM, there is no thinking in archaic. You just go through the motions.
    Flammifer
    Hero
    posted 09 July 2003 11:05 AM EDT (US)     6 / 43       
    I don't think that the placement of the 4 starting sheep in aok were one of it's strong points. You could see them right away or you might spend a minute looking for them in some cases. Random is good, strait luck doesn't hold a lot of appeal with me.

    Again aom's maps feature much more diversity than aok's in the most important resource for the early game, free food. I certainly got tired of my 8 sheep, 7 forage bushes and 2 boars. All at their respective distances from my tc.

    If you prefer aoe I belive there are still quite a few people still playing on the zone. If you want to stick with aom try scripting some of your own maps to suit your preferences.

    [This message has been edited by Flammifer (edited 07-09-2003 @ 11:05 AM).]

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 11:15 AM EDT (US)     7 / 43       
    how much more random do u want to get.... if u really dont like it play "the unknown"

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  • BlackViper
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 11:15 AM EDT (US)     8 / 43       
    Well unfortunately what he wants happend to me on anatolia once. And it sucked. For a strange reason two of my towers were really close one to another => I had an area without a tower => bad initial scouting => no food in sight => lost 30 sec. before I found food + time where my ulf would have built a dock.

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    BlackViper
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 01:14 PM EDT (US)     9 / 43       
    Check the pic. posted at this topic which happend to me today and tell me how was I supposed to win.
    http://forums.thor-clan.com/viewtopic.php?t=1322.

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    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 01:22 PM EDT (US)     10 / 43       
    Rush..... claim his mines.... he was egy u were norse... easy vicotry with rush... or u could go for a fh and get trade carts WOW

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  • NS_Cymophane
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 01:29 PM EDT (US)     11 / 43       
    Try death match

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    onionsack
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 02:46 PM EDT (US)     12 / 43       
    Ouch! That is definitely a nasty hand to be dealt! On the bright side, Forest Fire would have forced him way off base in search of wood.
    Matei
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 03:47 PM EDT (US)     13 / 43       
    I think it's less frustrating to know what you start with than to have to look for sheep, boar, etc as you did in AoK and be in trouble if you don't find them. Also, some maps can be different than expected, for example Savannah may have very few animals or (most annoyingly) Midgard tends to have fish only in far-away, hard to scout places. It would be hard to really remove the build-up phase from the Supremacy game mode, and a similar thing is present for the first few minutes even in Death Match. You could try playing a god that can do offensive things in Archaic, such as Set or Zeus, or you could try to develop several build orders for each map.

    Programmer on 0 A.D., author of Norse Wars, co-author of Fort Wars.
    BlackViper
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 03:56 PM EDT (US)     14 / 43       
    Well problem is not the build order problem is by the time I figured out I had only one mine in my half it was too late. Game was going well I was raiding having fun. I used forest fire but he was eggy so it really didn;t hurt and then bang well am I gonna mine next. Surprise surprise next mine is half the map around. While he had 2 secure maps near his TC. Random random but not like that.

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    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 04:14 PM EDT (US)     15 / 43       
    blackviper.. scout more than.... u should have the whole map scouted by 5 mins and therefore ur half by 3:00 plenty of time to change ur strat

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  • NrS_KiLLer
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 04:16 PM EDT (US)     16 / 43       
    i have to agree. archaic can just be build orders. i've used 2 BOs (water and land) and gotten to 1834 before. it's kind of sad. but the rest of the game is really strategic

    note: i did not play any good loki or set players during that time

    Phate
    Banned
    posted 09 July 2003 04:24 PM EDT (US)     17 / 43       
    Yes the average archaic is BOs

    Take the average classical time as 5:30

    Take the aveage game length 12 mins

    That means you get around 6:00 mins of "fun" play per game, I for one, would expect more than that from an rts game

    NrS_KiLLer
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 04:28 PM EDT (US)     18 / 43       
    look on ESO. avg time is like 20

    it also depends if it's one on one, 2v2, or 3v3, etc.

    BlackViper
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 05:22 PM EDT (US)     19 / 43       
    Maybe someone would tell me how can a norse scout the entire map by 5:00. Yes greek can due to the fast scout but for norse with ulf it's impossible.

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    Shiva
    HG Alumnus
    posted 09 July 2003 06:35 PM EDT (US)     20 / 43       
    Odin's got ravens, other norse can make hersir or something to scout out..

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    BlackViper
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 07:50 PM EDT (US)     21 / 43       
    Yep Odin has ravens. But u get them when u advance. That is 5:00-5:30. By that time I had about 1/3 of the map discovered but I never botherd to think that he could have so many more mines close than me. And then he's eggy and his turrets upgrade instantly on advance and my ravens can't scout around his base that good. The fight between us was pretty equal until I run out of gold.

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    J_Bone
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 08:00 PM EDT (US)     22 / 43       
    I think you have to be ready to alter your BO in unforeseen circumstances. For instance, in Alfheim and Watering Hole there are usually deer within you TC LOS when you start, but sometimes there aren't and then you have to decide whether to look for them or eat chickens or berries instead. There are a number of other things that you have to monitor, and you have to make sure your scout is doing a good job.
    So if you are bored in Archaic, you probably aren't doing all you can.
    Frigrating
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 08:35 PM EDT (US)     23 / 43       
    No. I didn't to the 1800's with the 2nd worst god without doing the fundamental stuff like monitoring my scout. The first intuition by some of the forumers seems to be that I have to be a rook if I find a large part of the game boring.Archaic is too routine and provokes very little thought after you've mastered a general BO for each map. It needs to be shaken up somehow... either more randomness, or allow armies.
    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 09:56 PM EDT (US)     24 / 43       
    get c&c if u dont like the archic age in aom

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  • Frigrating
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 10:22 PM EDT (US)     25 / 43       
    After thinking about it more ( yes I'm bored today, raining nonstop ) here's a proposal for the x-pack to make Archaic more fun -

    - Every civ can build non-upgradeable infantry or ranged units. No cavalry until classical.

    - A tower upgrade that is a step below Sentry can be made for about 50 wood/gold. They are half as strong as Sentry.

    Then Zeus and Hades would be slightly stronger, Set would be more stoppable, and Archaic wouldn't be so boring.

    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 10:52 PM EDT (US)     26 / 43       
    THAT isnt aom.... goto another game... it is a rts not a rtt

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  • XKostas
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 10:59 PM EDT (US)     27 / 43       
    I know my post has nothing to do with this topic but uhh Mokon what does RTT mean, I know RTS stands for real time strategy but uhh i'm not sure what RTT means, you mind telling me.
    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 11:20 PM EDT (US)     28 / 43       
    well the Genre of RTS games has two subsets, the RTT and the RTS.... RTT's are two dimentional with no eco.... only offense and defense.... a rts has eco, offense and defense... most games are a mix however games like C&C or SC are closer to RTT while Warcraft and AOM are more of a RTS..

    Oh yeah to answer ur question RTT means Real time Tactical


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  • Frigrating
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2003 11:35 PM EDT (US)     29 / 43       
    Mokon? Of course there would be eco. Some attacking might or might not occur with that setup, depending if you wanted to boom or rush. Kind of like in AOE where you actually had to build an army to survive... only in AOM you still have 4 towers. At least there'd be some actual strategy involved in the first 6 minutes.
    Mokon
    Mortal
    posted 10 July 2003 07:20 AM EDT (US)     30 / 43       
    Their is strat.... strat does not only mean the tactical sides.... it also means economic.... and if u just say that all u have to do is follow bo's than once again u are wrong... u have to adapt to every situation

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  • [This message has been edited by Mokon (edited 07-10-2003 @ 07:20 AM).]

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