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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Patch readme out!
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Topic Subject:Patch readme out!
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Lord_Cyrus
Mortal
posted 23 January 2004 08:08 PM EDT (US)         
http://www.ensemblestudios.com/age/index.html

==================
Age Of Mythology(tm) v1.09
Patch Release Notes
==================

If you are encountering out of sync (OOS) problems when playing multiplayer, go to http://www.windowsupdate.comand ensure that you have the latest updates. Specifically, downloading and installing the Microsoft Processor Driver Version 5.1.2600.1152 for the AMD Athlon is known to fix potential out of sync problems. Also, if you are having trouble connecting to ESO or to games and other users, please check out the Age of Mythology FAQ on http://www.eso.com.

==================
Patch 1.09 - fixes the record game feature and a couple ESO issues.
==================

CLIENT FIXES

- Fixed a database exploit.
- Fixed an exploit that could allow illegal market trades.
- Fixed an exploit involving relics that could sometimes generate free resources.
- Added additional checks for zoom cheats.


==================
Age Of Mythology(tm): The Titans v1.02
Patch Release Notes
==================

==================
Patch 1.02 - Fixed a few exploits, some bugs and made a few balance adjustments.
==================

CLIENT FIXES

- Fixed a database exploit.

- Fixed an exploit that could allow illegal market trades.

- Fixed an exploit involving relics that could sometimes generate free resources.

- Fixed a bug that allowed the Son of Osiris, the 2nd pharaoh and Ra priests to empower the Titan Gate during construction.

- Fixed a bug that allowed players to cancel upgrades at 99% and receive both the upgrade and the resources.

- Fixed a bug in recorded game playback where the "pause" text would be remain on-screen until the application was restarted.

- Added additional checks for zoom cheats.

- Unit Balance Adjustments (NOTE: Save games from all previous versions will not be affected by the balance changes. Recorded games from all previous versions are still supported and will replay as before):

Titan Gate build time increased by 10%

Isis' major god bonus (10% cost reduction for techs) now excludes "Secrets of the Titans" and all Age up techs

Turma and Turma Hero cost 5 more gold

Minion damage (Ancestors god power) decreased by 2

Promethean crush damage decreased by 3, cost increased by 10 gold

Isis monument protection radius reduced by 20%

Valor's maximum number of units converted decreased to 3 military units and 1 villager

Fenris wolf pack speed boost reduced to 15%

Fire giant crush damage reduced by 5

Katapeltes hitpoints reduced by 5

Gaia's economy techs reduced by 10%

Carnivora hitpoints increased by 25%

Caladria speed increased by 1, heal rate increased by 25%, and range increased by 4

Stymphalian Bird cost increased by 20 wood

Ulfsarks, Hoplite, and Murmillos and Spearman received damage bonus increase vs. Turma

Heka Gigantes hitpoints increased by 150

Contarius & Hero hitpoints increased by 10

Rheias Gift favor decreased by 5

Horns of Consecration costs 5 less favor and 30 more gold

Channels costs 75 less gold and 2 less favor

Shades' hitpoints increased by 10

Wadjet hitpoints increased by 20

Cyclops speed increased by .3

Minotaur speed increased by .2

Norse favor trickle reduced in Deathmatch

Atlantean TownCenter build time reduced in Deathmatch

Hersir TownCenter build time reduced in Deathmatch


Lord Cyrus
AuthorReplies:
deano3985
Mortal
posted 26 January 2004 06:43 PM EDT (US)     211 / 240       
I agree we should keep this in a civil manner, which is ironic considering my previous posts, but when you read posts from just complete idiots that are convinced that TA are balanced, whom also are convinced that Hoplites don't counter RC just aggrevates me. It's almost as if they know that TA aren't balanced, but they just don't want to admit it because, god forbid, their OP Egyptians and atlanteans are counterable by Norse. Just some quotes I'd like to bring up:

Quote:

Quote:

If you are lucky then you get owned by a Hades Toxote spammer which Norse can't counter.

You are going way over the top and undermining your argument in the process. Try any amount of Hades Tox vs the same number of RC and you will see the fallacy in your statement.

I have recordings to confirm that in most situations an army consisting of MOSTLY Toxotes with a hand full of Hoplites and even 1-2 Cyclops WILL beat any Norse counter until Heroic. RC suck at countering relatively well defended Toxotes because of bad pathing.

Quote:

Quote:

Or maybe you get owned by a Zeus infantry spammer.

Again it has been shown numerous times that TA fair fine against hops in numbers of about 5+. Again your hyperbolous rantings only seek to undermine your, somewhat poignant argument.

Watch the recording that was posted above, I think that pretty much confirms how well TA do vs Zeus infantry.

Quote:

I agree the TA needs looking at but some of the suggestions here are stupid. Boost then so they get a 4x Multipliyer. Jesus people have no idea.

I said x3 not x4. x3 is still a lot less than Axeman and Hypaspists.

Quote:

Oh come on man. Chiero's get owned by cav cost uber res. and are not even a siege weapon but you dont here Atl players complaining do you.

You don't hear them complaining because they own Ulfs, Hersirs, and TA while they have Katapeltes to kill the only counter that Norse have to them in classical.

Quote:

The fact that TA are the only Norse Infantry Counter (they get no archer unit), doesn't mean they should be more powerful/effective, it just means they should be easier to make.

Egypt get Chariots and
Atlantean get Arcus, Cherioballista and Fanatic
Greek get Toxotes, Hypaspist
Norse get TA.

Then how do you explain Chieroballista? Atlanteans pretty much have a ranged Hypaspist in Classical. On top of that they get Arcus in Heroic, which if for some reason the Chieros aren't owning every unit except Jarls and RC good enough, then they can switch it up so that Norse players don't complain quite as much that Chieros are OP.

The biggest irony that I find is that you people complain that Norse TA shouldn't be too good because they are ranged and yet Chieros, which have greater range, greater HP, far better armor, and far better damage vs infantry and probably the most cost/pop effective infantry counter in Classical, are considered completely well balanced. Let's not even mention the fact that they cost wood/gold as opposed to food like Axeman do. The only draw back Chiero have is that they cost 4 population and train very slowly, because really, which would you rather have, 1 Chiero or 2/3 TA (Pop/Cost)?

Do you really think that it's balanced that Atlanteans, Greeks, and Egyptians all get a unit that counters all but the Jarl and RC? And on top of that, RC and Jarls don't kill Hyps and Axeman all that well, and when you mix in Katas with Chieros they get owned pretty hard.

I suppose I should apologize for my previous, meaningless post, but most of you who say Norse are balanced rely on faulty statistics and don't even play Norse at a high skill level. I mean even Salska admits that Norse are dead.

Quote:

On-topic: I think the patch could have been een far worse than it is.

I agree, but not by much.

Quote:

If you think that norse get owned by everyone then your view is either very biased, misinformed or you are simply not very good.

I'm currently 1738 on TT with 100% Odin, not great but I was 1800+ with Odin in AoM. Let's just list through the civs, for Odin only.

Odin vs Odin: Default

Odin vs Thor: Pretty close, both kind of suck but Thor's armor upgrades, Forseti, and his access to Bragi give him a much better edge in my opinion.

Odin vs Loki: Loki rushing owns Odin. He really can't counter it. Thor can counter it a little better because he can usually advance faster, once again he gets Trolls which own Einherjar/TA (Most common Loki army), and he can out upgrade his opponent. Not to mention Dwarven Mine can often help during a gold strangle. Once again this is just my personal view.

Odin vs Ra: Spearman/Axeman really do a number on Norse, and Petsuchos really own Norse considering that they lack a ranged Hero. Ra Migdol units rape Norse pretty hard if he FHs.

Odin vs Set: Ok I'll give you this one. Norse do own him pretty bad. With the exception of Ancestors, Set doesn't really have any intimidating features.

Odin vs Isis: Need I explain? Ancestors/Eclipse just kills any Norse army unless you have a shit load of Hersirs and Jarls already in your army. Once again Spearman/Axeman just owns Norse.

Odin vs Greek: Hoplite/Hyps and Hoplite/Tox own norse in Heroic and Classical respectively. Through in a few uber Greek Heroes, Cyclops/Nemean Lions, and Ranged siege and you can say good game.

Odin vs Kronos/Oranos: Where should I start. Katapeltes/Chieros, Katapeltes/Murmillos, Valor, Prometheans, 3:30 Kronos rushes, 4:30 Classical advances with Turma raiding, Deconstruct, Shockwave, and ridiculous early economy. Did I leave anything out? Chieros own Ulfs, Hersirs, and TA, Katapeltes own RC and stand up pretty damn well vs TA, Ulfs, and Hersirs, same goes for Murms except they own Ulfs as well as RC. Turma own TA. And should you get Heroic, he can always buy time by Deconstructing your Hill Fort, or on water he can take out your Archaic dock and really **** you over.

Odin vs Gaia: Once again, Gaia has the Overpowered units but isn't quite as bad. This would be a close game I guess. Like you said, some Valkyries would own her, but that doesn't me she sucks, it just reiterates that Prometheus is Overpowered. Nerf Valor, decrease the Atlantean favor gathering rate (I mean come on, it is free), and decrease the favor cost for heroes to maybe 1-2. The resource cost isn't that bad. If you think it is, then look at the cost of Hersirs. Don't forget you are also paying for convenience.

That is my opinions on why Norse die, Odin in particular, to all civs, except for maybe Gaia and Set.

Spook
Mortal
posted 26 January 2004 06:50 PM EDT (US)     212 / 240       
I know I said I wouldnt enter this debate but I would like to point one thing out.

Quote:

I mean even Salska admits that Norse are dead

He said this only because norse cant build a titan without sacrificing econ. And he said it pre-patch.

goodbaby
Mortal
posted 26 January 2004 07:06 PM EDT (US)     213 / 240       
I ran a bunch of test before to answer some questions.
I post the result here.

All units are unupgraded.
No micro control involved.
Test one:
10 RC + 10 TA vs 10 spearman +10 Axeman.
Result:10 TA and 5 RC left.

10RC + 10 TA vs 12 spearman+ 12 axeman.
Result: 9 TA and 2 RC left.

10RC + 10 TA vs 13 spearman + 13 Axeman.
Result: 4 TA left.

10 RC vs 10 Spearman:
Result:6 RC left.

10 RC vs 13 spearman:
Result:7 spearman left.

10 RC vs 10 Axeman:
Result:8 RC left.

10 RC vs 13 axeman:
result:1 RC left.

tGo_elfjorc
Mortal
posted 26 January 2004 07:14 PM EDT (US)     214 / 240       

Quote:

That is my opinions on why Norse die, Odin in particular, to all civs, except for maybe Gaia and Set.

1) "That is my opinion"
2) Norse aren't dying so badly ... 50% win rate. Unless they come up against Set and Gaia REALLY often, I think you're overexaggerating on how they lose to all civs ...


Is there anything in the world better than Matt Damon in the riddle scene in Ocean's Twelve?
deano3985
Mortal
posted 26 January 2004 07:51 PM EDT (US)     215 / 240       
No I'm just telling you my own self experience. And I highly doubt that I'm the only one that find Spearman/Axeman to be a tough comob to beat in Classical.

Quote:

10 RC vs 10 Spearman:
Result:6 RC left.

10 RC vs 13 spearman:
Result:7 spearman left.

Ok so you've just supported the well known fact that Spearman beat RC cost effectively but not Pop effectively. Your point?

Quote:

10 RC vs 10 Axeman:
Result:8 RC left.

OMG. I never knew that Axeman didn't counter RC.... [sarcasm]

Quote:

10 RC vs 13 axeman:
result:1 RC left.

I ran this same test except with 14 Axeman. Now let's loow at something.

10 RC vs 13 Spearman = 7 Spearman
10 RC vs 14 Axeman = 4 Axeman

For the cost of 70 more resources, you can counter RC with Axeman almost as effectively as with Spearman. Not to mention you beat all other units of Norse and Axeman are made in 10 secs????

That's some more food for thought.

Quote:

10 RC + 10 TA vs 10 spearman +10 Axeman.
Result:10 TA and 5 RC left.

10RC + 10 TA vs 12 spearman+ 12 axeman.
Result: 9 TA and 2 RC left.

10RC + 10 TA vs 13 spearman + 13 Axeman.
Result: 4 TA left.

Ok now just throw in the fact that Spears/Axe are made in 9/10 secs compared to RC/TA which is 18/16 secs and you prove that He will easily out mass you and replace his army.

Just to let you know. None of those showed cost effectiveness.

Here's cost effectiveness:

7 TA + 7 RC vs 18 Axeman. Without micro obviously Axeman lose. However, only noobs don't micro. All I did was take about 8 Axeman, and swing them around the Out numbered RC and Presto. I won with 10 Axeman left.

Conclusion. Axeman (And I'm sure Hypaspists) are too good vs Cavalry. When 10 RC lose to 14 Axeman, which is only 70 more resources than what it takes for Spearmen to counter RC, then you know something is very wrong.

PS: Goodbaby, I appreciate your tests. I never knew how well Axeman did vs Cavalry. You really helped me prove my point.

[This message has been edited by deano3985 (edited 01-26-2004 @ 07:52 PM).]

tGo_elfjorc
Mortal
posted 26 January 2004 09:06 PM EDT (US)     216 / 240       

Quote:

No I'm just telling you my own self experience. And I highly doubt that I'm the only one that find Spearman/Axeman to be a tough comob to beat in Classical.

Agreed, but most civs has some combo vs. another civ that it finds tough to beat ... like Egypt with Turma-Chiero.

Norse vs. Egypt balance in Classical is very delicate. Norse has only two military types in Classical - infantry and cavalry. EGypt also has only two military types - infantry and archers. Both also have combos that can potentially take out anything theo ther has to offer - Norse with RC-TA an Egypt with Spear-Axe. The problem is that these two combos counter each other, so Eggy-Norse battles tend to involve which one can beat the other. Pre-1.07, RC-TA always beat SPear-Axe, and Egypt was forced to go Heroic, giving up map control and being gold-strangled. Norse players claimed there was nothing wrong. Now, to preevnt Egypt from being overwhelmed, ES nerfed the RC-TA combo and now it loses to Spear-Axe. Now, Norse players complain. THe irony ...

Unless we or ES can come up with a way to either reach the thin thread that might allow Nose -Eggy in Classical to become 50:50 and depend on the best micro, or give each a way that all combos can be coutered by a combo that doesn't calsh with the counterable combo (i.e. no two ocmbos that coutner each other), that's how the history of Norse- Eggy in Classical is going to be.


Is there anything in the world better than Matt Damon in the riddle scene in Ocean's Twelve?
deano3985
Mortal
posted 26 January 2004 10:17 PM EDT (US)     217 / 240       
Yea but that's the kind of shit you are going to see when one civ has only Infantry and Cavalry. If TA were countered only by Slingers and not Axeman, then it would be more balanced because Axeman Spear would no longer counter RC TA, and do the same for Hyps. Spear/Axeman isn't far from Hops/Hyps.
tGo_elfjorc
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 01:38 AM EDT (US)     218 / 240       

Quote:

Yea but that's the kind of shit you are going to see when one civ has only Infantry and Cavalry. If TA were countered only by Slingers and not Axeman, then it would be more balanced because Axeman Spear would no longer counter RC TA, and do the same for Hyps. Spear/Axeman isn't far from Hops/Hyps.

Egypt also has only Infantry + Archers in Classical ...

Ze problem with Slings being Egypt's only coutner to TA is that RC-TA will grind Spear-Sling if we do what Norse players suggest (TA + & RC -HA, -TT)...


Is there anything in the world better than Matt Damon in the riddle scene in Ocean's Twelve?
NIB
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 06:12 AM EDT (US)     219 / 240       

Quote:

I have recordings to confirm that in most situations an army consisting of MOSTLY Toxotes with a hand full of Hoplites and even 1-2 Cyclops WILL beat any Norse counter until Heroic. RC suck at countering relatively well defended Toxotes because of bad pathing.

Then those norse players should learn 2 things, how to flank enemy units on open field and how to avoid fighting ranged units behind buildings with melee units.

So flank(aka micro) enemy toxotes and if you cant flank them, ignore them and go hit their eco. Both toxotes and hoplites are uber slow. Hit and run their eco and cause mayhem.

Quote:

I said x3 not x4. x3 is still a lot less than Axeman and Hypaspists.

3x is way too much. Current multipliers are fine(except that tas need to get higher multiplier against murmillos). Tas just need their 0.5dmg back.

Quote:

You don't hear them complaining because they own Ulfs, Hersirs, and TA while they have Katapeltes to kill the only counter that Norse have to them in classical.

Again same story with toxotes. Use your brain not your muscles. Play smart. Also consider using towers since atlanteans cant kill buildings(especially once promies get nerfed). And ulfsarks get a bonus against chieros.

Quote:

The biggest irony that I find is that you people complain that Norse TA shouldn't be too good because they are ranged and yet Chieros, which have greater range, greater HP, far better armor, and far better damage vs infantry and probably the most cost/pop effective infantry counter in Classical, are considered completely well balanced. Let's not even mention the fact that they cost wood/gold as opposed to food like Axeman do. The only draw back Chiero have is that they cost 4 population and train very slowly, because really, which would you rather have, 1 Chiero or 2/3 TA (Pop/Cost)?

They cant concetrate fire though and they are uber slow. Also they become worse on later ages simply because they dont benefit from armory upgrades.

About the odin vs egyptian comparisons. Let me remind you that rcs and jarls still beat spearmen pop efficient. In fact uber jarls can beat spearmen even cost efficient. But i guess we all forgot about that.

Some things that ppl havent realised that are op : fanatics against norse, greek heroic counter untis, buildings(and normal buildings and towers and especially castles cause of noobified seige).


ESO name : Relaxing

Eisai ellinas? Tote ela sto www.noobwars.gr.

inner_bliss
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 06:58 AM EDT (US)     220 / 240       
IMO it have changed quiet fairly so that there can't be any Isis wh0res now on game. THank you ES.

You Guys Know I Like Gaia and Hades... Why?
Because I like to play defensive... Why?
Because I like to boom... Why?
Because I like to win... Why?
Because I like to kick a**... Why?
Because...err...hmm... I don't Know!
Maxxima
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 11:18 AM EDT (US)     221 / 240       
Waa Waa norse this norse that, what about Set, hes an Eggy, so hey he must be much better than Norse, BS, one of the most UP Gods since TT is an Eggy, and what does he get from this patch to balance him, a little more attack for his spearmen against Turmas that the rest of the Eggys get as well, also, he can use the Ancestor GP which got nerfed. I do not play Set but I would like to see him played more so I think we should look at balancing him and bringing him out of the depths rather than whining that the Fire Giant and the deathmatch play for Norse got nerfed. Norse is fine.
deano3985
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 11:48 AM EDT (US)     222 / 240       
NIB, I do agree with you on one point though. Hard Counter units are very Overpowered. In my opinion, that's why Norse have such trouble vs Egyptians/Atlanteans in Classical and Greeks in Heroic. Hard Counter>Generic. Norse have little to no Hard counters in this game. Only Huskarls which even are pretty generic and TA, which are neither good counter nor good generic units.
TheSlinger
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 12:06 PM EDT (US)     223 / 240       
I think TA's should be made an archer unit, in addition to +0.5 damage and HP or whatever you want done. Why?

1. Egypt would have to make slingers.

2. Counter-infantry wouldn't slaughter 3/4 of the Norse classical army, and 4/6 of the Norse Heroic army.

3. Norse would have a real counter to Ta's/Hypaspists before Mythic.

Also, I think Spearmen should get a higher multiplier vs. Cavalry, or Higher HP.

And Ulfsarks should get a small (1.2/1.3) Multiplier vs. Cavalry, because Thor is the only Norse God who really gets a true cavalry counter. Odin because he doesn't get Bragi, and Loki games rarely get to heroic.

City_Of_God
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 02:25 PM EDT (US)     224 / 240       

Deano, I am sorry but you are talking rubbish. You can call us/me idiots or noobs or whatever but you really do not know what you are talking about. How can you say axeman/spear army works norse in classical, it is pure fantasy. As goodbaby has shown with actual facts RC/TA own this combo. Not only this I just did a test of 20 rc vs 10 spears/10 axes. RC win 4/5 times, 1 time 1 spearman left with 5 hp. Now lets analyse this. The eggy player needs a lot of food for this combo, more than the norse player. On some maps he will have to start farming for this combo costing more res. Now I do not care what you or anyone says food is the hardest res to accumulate in classical. Now not only does this combo get owned by all RC spear/axe suxxx at raiding whereas RC excel at raiding. So you can be running around the map killing vils forcing the eggy player off food forcing him to farm and if you happen to run into an eggy army, you can defeat him in an out and out fight. Like I have said before eggy has no human counter to the RC in classical pop eff forcing a FH which often works well against norse. Like I said before your over exageration moving to complete BS only serves to undermine the argument that TA need a boost against certain units (atl) which is a correct one.

In your Greek examples. Follow NIB's advice. With proper micro RC a few hersir and a few TA will own tox/cyclops/hop. If the other player micros better then the effect will be reversed. This is known as being a better/worse player. Again like I said before, if this is the case. Raid the crap out of him.

Quote:

Hard Counter units are very Overpowered. In my opinion, that's why Norse have such trouble vs Egyptians/Atlanteans in Classical and Greeks in Heroic.

and thats why eggy's have such trouble with RC in classical.

Again like I said before there is no way Odin is worse than Gaia and Set can pwn odin with ease.

Vassilis
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 02:39 PM EDT (US)     225 / 240       
I don't understand why you are complaining. I wish my hypaspist could stand up as well as huskarls vs cavalry even if some of his bonus was taken away. And prodromos could beat archers and raid like camelry.

Hard counters are only good against idiots who spam 1 unit armies like hipps or RC. When I see that I just try to advance as quickly as possibly to heroic and murder them with prodromos.

But most hard counters will lose horribly to everything else.

Tordenskiold
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 02:42 PM EDT (US)     226 / 240       
Just a funny little side note:

Right now at this moment, Norse are the ONLY civ. to have all three Gods, Odin, Thor and Loki, represented in the Top 25 on ESO.

This is before the patch is released.

How do the Norse whining choir explain that fact (oh, I know. It must be statistic error or something )


TORDENSKIOLD(1690-1720)

During the Great Nordic War (1700-1720), he was commander of the danish navy, which defeaded the swedish army at Kristiania (modern Oslo). After the war, he was killed in a duel on Nov. 12, 1720 just outside Hamburg, Germany, during a travel to England.

ESO: TORDENSKIOLD
Quircus
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 02:43 PM EDT (US)     227 / 240       
Yes, normal Greek armies consist of either 2 Generic Units (usually conatining Toxotes - Archers have ruled teh battlefield ever since AOE), or one generic unit and the hard counter that unit's counter...(e.g. Hoplite, and Peltast, or Toxotes and Prodromos, or Hippikons and Hypaspists).

Using Hypaspists/Prodromos is a bit risky since CA/Toxotes/Arcus/TA will completely own you...

Holy_Punk
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 03:43 PM EDT (US)     228 / 240       
Guys, haven't read ALL you posts, but you are attacking deano for no good reason, from my point of view.
Norse are MEANT to be played aggressively. They don’t stand a good chance in a long run. If you boom with Norse and non-attie opponent has done some scouting, he’ll boom in reply: heroic Greeks own heroic Norse – best counters, with second TC in classical Greeks can boom like crazy; Egypt does not even need any heroic units, just upgrade barracks line and mix in right proportion of spears/axes/slings (especially with ”slings of the sun” tech), maybe add some camels – more game progresses more chances Egypt will outmass you;- or just do FT; Atties can be MORE aggressive than Norse, yet they strong defensively as well.
Norse need to fight in classical – hersirs won’t get you much favor sitting at your home base. Norse win game in classical – early heroic. If they don’t then opponent must make some big mistake to lose the game. Otherwise Norse can only rely on Baldr. And while all civilizations have had their ability to withstand pressure in classical – heroic increased, Norse haven’t got anything added in their arsenal. RC training time increased, Thundering Hooves - Odin’s strong point -nerfed, TA are pathetic – is one of the worst units in the game, save for hetaroi and, I don’t know, maybe CA and Attie’s cavalry., depending what you use them for. But if you can afford as Egypt just to get few CA and raid, Norse can’t survive without any counter infantry/range unit. You think Norse spam TA because they are good? No, because they perform so badly, you really need to have them en masse.
The only good thing they still got is Loki rush. But Norse got beaten even in this department with ridiculous Attie’s times. Loki rusher puts everything on it – rush fails he loses. Kronos does not put ANYTHING, he advances so fast and gets army so fast that even if rush fails, he still have enough time to recover, while opponent is aging, what around 7-7:30 against good rush?
It’s not like I’m playing Norse and complaining about it them being UP. I play random god and every time I get Norse I know it’s going to a very hard game. No matter who’s the opponent, save he is another Norse. On the other hand, when I matched up with Norse as non-Norse, I know I have several option, adjust my strategy to map and do what I’m pleased, basically – go and grab TC right near him as Zeus – no way he’ll take it down in classical, even if he would it’s going to cost him too much; spam spears/slings/axes and just run around him or take his forward out with some army and anc+ecpl; time shift my temple and gg very soon.
I’m very average player, but I play all Gods equally, and I can say for sure – Norse are the weakest.

Holy Punk.

deano3985
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 04:14 PM EDT (US)     229 / 240       

Quote:

Using Hypaspists/Prodromos is a bit risky since CA/Toxotes/Arcus/TA will completely own you...

lmfao. Haha. TA own Hypaspists/Prodromos. You could take out the Prodromos, and have half as many Hypaspists as the Norse have TA and still win.

Quote:

uys, haven't read ALL you posts, but you are attacking deano for no good reason, from my point of view.

Thank you.

Quote:

Not only this I just did a test of 20 rc vs 10 spears/10 axes.



Try doing that same test in terms of cost effectiveness and see who wins.

Quircus
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 04:18 PM EDT (US)     230 / 240       

Quote:

Quote:

Using Hypaspists/Prodromos is a bit risky since CA/Toxotes/Arcus/TA will completely own you...

lmfao. Haha. TA own Hypaspists/Prodromos. You could take out the Prodromos, and have half as many Hypaspists as the Norse have TA and still win.

Lol. I actually laughed to myself as I wrote that. I meant TA are meant to counter them... lol


Oh, and against Norse Spear/Sling is usually best, because Sling completely destroy TA, leaving sling to wipe up the rest. Of course if they are going heavily on Hersir/Ulfs, then Axe/Sling may be better.

deano3985
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 05:04 PM EDT (US)     231 / 240       
True, but Ulfsarks are a problem for Spear/Sling. Ulfsarks do well vs Spears and Just own Slingers, but then again like you said it's not too difficult to just switch to Axeman.
Holy_Punk
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 05:19 PM EDT (US)     232 / 240       
Hmm... I say, for start two rax slings, one rax spears and one rax 1 axe for 1 spear... if you're going for Classical fight. Loki if different, axes + sligs and spears later only when you see RC. Then adjust depending on the situation... But really, Egypt has no problems against Norse. Even slow Greek aren't that slow anymore and Norse have troubles catching up.
I wonder if pure RC will do, against Greek. TA are just not worth making, they die so bad to tox/hips and even hops do ok against them. Aim to kill him in classical, just put all in it, I think it might work.

Holy Punk.

City_Of_God
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 05:42 PM EDT (US)     233 / 240       

Holy Punk you have just written a page of opinions, half-truths and downright BS. Afew highlights;

Quote:

spam spears/slings/axes and just run around him

rofl, yeah eggy classical units really run around RC.

Quote:

while opponent is aging, what around 7-7:30 against good rush?

If you are advancing at 7-7:30 vs a good kronos rush then you deserve to lose.

Quote:

heroic Greeks own heroic Norse

I think this is one of the biggest myths in the game. Greeks have one counter to huskarl, hypapist which RC/Jarl beat up on. Norse heroic GP's roxxx Greek heroic GP's. MU's are relatively equal although mass jarl render myths a bit worthless. Need I mention Bragi Ulfs??? I am not saying that Norse own Greeks but I think thebattle is very equal maybe slightly in greeks favour. And yes I play a lot of rdm civ to and play all gods (other than attie really because I think they are really lame and very boring to play, although I still have many games with them.)

Quote:

Try doing that same test in terms of cost effectiveness and see who wins.

Why, so it will fit your argument better ??? You said that axe/spear owns norse. Goodbaby (who you flame because he talks sense and argues correctly against your stand-point) showed you to be oh so embarrasingly wrong and I merely reinforced the point with my test using Norse units that should be countered by half the eggy units, I was simply proving your statement to be total fantasy. Anyway with my test there is no reason as the norse player that you should fight a cost/eff eggy army as you can simply run away, that is a luxury of the example that you seem to be neglecting.

deano3985
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 06:40 PM EDT (US)     234 / 240       

Quote:

Why, so it will fit your argument better ??? You said that axe/spear owns norse. Goodbaby (who you flame because he talks sense and argues correctly against your stand-point) showed you to be oh so embarrasingly wrong and I merely reinforced the point with my test using Norse units that should be countered by half the eggy units, I was simply proving your statement to be total fantasy. Anyway with my test there is no reason as the norse player that you should fight a cost/eff eggy army as you can simply run away, that is a luxury of the example that you seem to be neglecting.

And by using Pop efficiency you are just using terms that better go against my argument, so what's your point. And have you also forgotten Greeks have Ranged siege and Ranged units that own most Norse units? Nah I'm sure you neglected to mention that once again to prove your own stand point true. You can twist and minipulate my words all you want but Goodbaby still has yet to show me any real proof that he's right.

And I'm sorry to say, but based on the few posts I've read by Holy Punk, he is by far a more logical and intelligent person than you are.

goodbaby
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 07:05 PM EDT (US)     235 / 240       
ES should do this then deano will be happy and I am fine with that:

1.Restore TA's hack damage and even the hack armor.Give TA *2.75 bonus on murmillo and fanatic.(Really effective TA which makes all norse players happy).

2.Make RC cost 3 pop.(I will be happy to see spearman counter RC pop effective since that change,and deano think pop effectiveness is bullshit so it doesnt matter to him).

Holy_Punk
Mortal
posted 27 January 2004 07:42 PM EDT (US)     236 / 240       
City, honey,

"run around" means exactly opposite - don't let these RC flank you or cut into your axes. And then make move to his FB when it's time. If he does not have FB, even better - build forward yourself, and not in heroic, in classical - once Eggy took some part of the map it's very hard to push them back. And by "build forward" I don't mean to send 10 villies with pharaoh to his door step and put up a temple there. If you need an explanation on different types of forward builds, then feel free to ask, I'll be glad to land you a helpful hand.

Against good Kronos rush you don't stand a chance as Norse. They come to your base at 3:30 - 3:40, DQ your temple, you have no Heroes etc etc. All these pity attempts to hide temple behind TC, when he has 3 oracle covering ALL of your base. Sure, you run after them with you ulf, you get another one. This really helps your advancement time... Egypt gets priest from TC after temple is built + pharaoh, Greeks have hero from TC, Atties can advance about the same time, still Gaia without Valor very vulnerable to Kronos. So, yes, you are right, you don't advance to Classical at 7:00, because you don't advance at all. And if you do advance then, let me see... kata+turma? kata+cherio? murm+cherio? murm+turma? Which one would you prefer as Norse? Um? Oh, don't forget to make Hersir to fight prommies (23 seconds training time, am I right?). No second ranged hero for you, no ranged priests/pharaoh or Valor... only your slow die-like-flies-to-cherio hersirs.

Now allow me to quote you, although I don't like quoting, as you say, "bullshit", in my posts:

Quote:


I think this is one of the biggest myths in the game. Greeks have one counter to huskarl, hypapist which RC/Jarl beat up on. Norse heroic GP's roxxx Greek heroic GP's. MU's are relatively equal although mass jarl render myths a bit worthless. Need I mention Bragi Ulfs??? I am not saying that Norse own Greeks but I think thebattle is very equal maybe slightly in Greeks favour.

First of all, Greek have one counter to huskarl, you are right. It just happens to be so that this "one counter" also counters your Bragi ulfs and your mighty TA. And excels in it. Ever tried to match up hyps against TA? Or against RC? You'd be surprised hyps don't die to RC like axes do. Oh, right... you have Jarls... from hillforts and you also produce huskies from hillforts... and I produce 6-8 prods from a stable and hyps/hops+tox, more hyps usually, depending on the situation and god. Ever seen raiding party or 12 RC trying to escape 7 prods? And by the time you'll start massing your jarls with huskies from these... what, 2 hillforts max in early heroic, the only thing you'll have left will be these two hillforts, because I get ranged siege.
And "Norse Heroic GP roxxx Greek Heroic GP"? That's right, because I don't need my Heroic GP when I counter two of your heroic GPs with one classical. Then while you're trying to build a hillfort near my frozen army during Cease fire or run around with flaming weapons unable to harm a sheep, I'm getting my Hydra, ranged and 3rd age heroes, once CS is over - Bronze and you'll be happy not to lose your home base, because you FB is dead. Of course, you might have Walking woods. Well, I'll sacrifice 3-5 villies luring these woods away. And 1st age hero does well against them too, not talking about 3rd one. Curse isn't that bad either, especially against wounded troops and Pest will allow me to get second TC with Sents on it as Hades.

This combination of things makes Norse almost dead: ranged unit that sucks, slower RC training time, and second TC in classical that Greek can get with almost 100% probability. The former one really set Norse back.

Holy Punk.

[This message has been edited by Holy_Punk (edited 01-27-2004 @ 07:45 PM).]

magic
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 00:08 AM EDT (US)     237 / 240       

Quote:

2.Make RC cost 3 pop.(I will be happy to see spearman counter RC pop effective since that change,and deano think pop effectiveness is bullshit so it doesnt matter to him).


And since cost and training time means bullshit to you let RC train in one second and cost 0 resources.


RoXsTaR
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 00:13 AM EDT (US)     238 / 240       
kk we get the point, enough already. ))

[This message has been edited by RoXsTaR (edited 01-28-2004 @ 00:14 AM).]

City_Of_God
Mortal
posted 28 January 2004 07:21 AM EDT (US)     239 / 240       

Quote:

And by using Pop efficiency you are just using terms that better go against my argument, so what's your point.

My point is that you stated that axe/spear combo owns norse. I and goodbaby have proved beyond any reasonable doubt that this is simply ridiculous. I have chosen a pop/eff. test as this is a more realistic scenario for my example. There is no reason why you as Norse with massed RC should fight a spear/axe army in any other situation than one that benefits the norse player for obvious reasons i.e. speed. You on the other hand say outrageous statements like "axe/spear owns norse" and then when you are proved wholly wrong you start changing your argumant implying that you meant cost/eff which is irrelevant as it is unrealistic in a real game as long as the norse player has any skill at all.

Quote:

And have you also forgotten Greeks have Ranged siege and Ranged units that own most Norse units? Nah I'm sure you neglected to mention that once again to prove your own stand point true.

What has that got to do with the quote that you have posted from me. Where do I mention Greeks in that quote. I was simply challenging your axe/spear claim and have proved you wholly wrong. So to counter you start discussing something totally irrelevant to the debate that you and I are discussing.

To answer your points. Greek have ranged units that own most norse units. Ummm I guess your talking about tox here. Well RC, Jarl, Huskarl counter them very effectively, do you need more than three counters, another wildly hyperbolous claim. As I said in another post to another forumer I do think that Greek have an edge over norse in heroic (ranged siege is one factor that adds to this) but it is very slight, certainly not the "Greek own norse in heroic" stance that said forumer was detailing.

Quote:

You can twist and minipulate my words all you want but Goodbaby still has yet to show me any real proof that he's right.

What more proof do you want. Again you said that axe/spear own norse. I and goodbaby have shown you 2 different scenarios that disprove your claim. No one is manipulating your words, please show me where I have done this. If you cannot accept factual evidence prefering to rely on opinions and one off games which throw hundreds of other variables into the mix then I do not know what to say other than you were wrong i your claim and simply will not admit it.

Quote:

And I'm sorry to say, but based on the few posts I've read by Holy Punk, he is by far a more logical and intelligent person than you are.

This only serves to highlight my last sentence above.

Quote:

ES should do this then deano will be happy and I am fine with that:
1.Restore TA's hack damage and even the hack armor.Give TA *2.75 bonus on murmillo and fanatic.(Really effective TA which makes all norse players happy).

2.Make RC cost 3 pop.(I will be happy to see spearman counter RC pop effective since that change,and deano think pop effectiveness is bullshit so it doesnt matter to him).

Point one is relatively fair, I would argue that only the bonus versus murmillo is required but tests would have to prove the requirement for a raise in attack.

Point two is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard and would make Norse truly dead. I hope you said this in jest because this would really lay norse to rest, A simple hip vs RC test would prove this beyond doubt.

City_Of_God
Mortal
posted 29 January 2004 07:33 AM EDT (US)     240 / 240       

Quote:

"run around" means exactly opposite - don't let these RC flank you or cut into your axes. And then make move to his FB when it's time. If he does not have FB, even better - build forward yourself, and not in heroic, in classical - once Eggy took some part of the map it's very hard to push them back. And by "build forward" I don't mean to send 10 villies with pharaoh to his door step and put up a temple there. If you need an explanation on different types of forward builds, then feel free to ask, I'll be glad to land you a helpful hand.

How would I 'flank into his axesmen', is he going to keep them behind his spears to... do nothing or give me a death look or something. Incase it has escaped you axes are melee units and have to be next to a unit to attack therefore the wise player will mix them in with spears, if for some god awful reason he decides to split his axes from his spears then just massacre them with your uber fast RC, you have the speed advantage with your RC. flanking only really comes into play vs ranged units.

Why is it very hard to push an eggy FB back ??? Your mass RC with some TA owns his army (as has been shown) and then you take down his FB. Or simply miss it out altogether and raid the pants off him.

Go on then, I want a detailed description of the "different types of forward builds."

Quote:

Against good Kronos rush you don't stand a chance as Norse. They come to your base at 3:30 - 3:40, DQ your temple, you have no Heroes etc etc. All these pity attempts to hide temple behind TC, when he has 3 oracle covering ALL of your base. Sure, you run after them with you ulf, you get another one. This really helps your advancement time...

Look man, Yes, yes, yes everyone knows the kronos rush is very strong against norse. As the Loki rush is v strong vs other norse. To say it is uncounterable is defeatist and simply wrong but i grant you it is very difficult. So we have one strat that is very strong against Thor, Odin (Loki can own the kronos rush, go to AOTsanctuary and dl games by MOR_Romio vs troy.) If you want some sdvice on beating the kronos rush with norse then please ask. I do not promise success but from the way you are going on it sounds like you need all the help you can get.

Quote:

So, yes, you are right, you don't advance to Classical at 7:00, because you don't advance at all. And if you do advance then, let me see... kata+turma? kata+cherio? murm+cherio? murm+turma? Which one would you prefer as Norse? Um? Oh, don't forget to make Hersir to fight prommies (23 seconds training time, am I right?).

Yes you do advance, pls stop talking utter rubbish. As I have said these combos are hard to stop as Norse, we know that but from this you/and others are trying to say that norse get owned by all civs which is simply not true.

Quote:

First of all, Greek have one counter to huskarl, you are right. It just happens to be so that this "one counter" also counters your Bragi ulfs and your mighty TA. And excels in it.

and huskarls counter very hard peltast, tox, gastraphete and beat up on, hips, prods, hetaroi, is basically immune to tower/fort fire etc. Need I say more.

Quote:

Ever tried to match up hyps against TA?

have you learnt nothing from these discussions, TA is ranged...

Quote:

Or against RC? You'd be surprised hyps don't die to RC like axes do.

But they do die to them, quite badly. Try pop eff jarl vs hyps and see what happens, both heroic units although jarl comes from hillfort.

Quote:

. Ever seen raiding party or 12 RC trying to escape 7 prods?

This is getting quite tiresome, yes they have the same speed.

Quote:

That's right, because I don't need my Heroic GP when I counter two of your heroic GPs with one classical. Then while you're trying to build a hillfort near my frozen army during Cease fire or run around with flaming weapons unable to harm a sheep,

That is why you play tactically. If the Greek player has/still has his CF (only 2/3 gods get CF and dont always choose it) when you get heroic choose Njord or wait for him to cast his heroic GP then cast yours. This is simple strategic play. You are explaining what you see as an imbalance due to nooby mistakes.

I have read the rest of your post and like I said above it gets very tiresome and "but if I do this, hell just do that to couinter it." Why not try casting WW in the middle of a battle and making sure you kill his heroes (he can have max of four, most likely 2-3 at this point.)

Quote:

and second TC in classical that Greek can get with almost 100% probability.

How is that, by casting CF ??? but what about "OMG he has a classical gp which nullifies my heroic gp waa waa waa." Play strategically man and out think your opponent. Of course you are going to lose if you play into his hands which is exactly what you have described. I really dont know why I bothered to answer this...

[This message has been edited by City_Of_God (edited 01-29-2004 @ 07:37 AM).]

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