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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Set - an intelligent conversation
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Topic Subject:Set - an intelligent conversation
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DeaconEire
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 04:04 PM EDT (US)         
Now since we are all in a "patch-mood",, I was thinking we could sum up all the little tid-bits that are wrong with the least used god Set. Lets please try to keep free of posts like "Set is OP - NERFNERF" Noone will play attention to this post if it is spammed up.

First off I think that animals were nerfed to hard. However I think this was not correct for convertables (cars ). Spamming monkeys is wrong. However nerfing the HP,, attack,, armor and conversion times. Converted animals can't be massed. Thus they can't really be used to much. I even think that taking away the heroes bonus damage would help Set a whole deal.

Then there are still a couple of bugs which are rather insignificant (unlike one involving certain greek gods :P) They are:
- PoS not attacking certain water-myth units
- Ancestors cast on water are horribly weak (you only need 2 siege ships to counter the entire GP!) and they also don't attack The Argo.
- Converted Karibou can't convert sheep
- Converted Arctic Wolves don't have a "voice"

I know these are very insignificant,, but sadly it looks a bit like ES' attitude is: "Oh Set is beyond reparation,, lets not bother about him anymore and concentrate on other gods." How else to explain these certain bugs which have been around for a while aswell as the total ignoration of Set in 1.02? Wasn't he unused and weak enough last patch? The only change was to increase Wadjets' hp,, which only made Set and Anubis even less frequently used

So,, what is your oppinion? Is it the animals that should be boosted? Or should ES leave animals the way they are and instead boost Set's eco? Or maybe his rax units? His migdol units? His god path? What do you think? Or do you really think he is fine and the 2% who actually use him are crazy?

AuthorReplies:
THE_champion95
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 04:10 PM EDT (US)     1 / 52       
The thing is a little boost would be nice, but i here a lot of people complaining of set UPness but it is nothign liek as UP as norse are. Set has better slingers than the other eggy and eggy rax units just own badly. Maybe the animals are weak atm but that doesnt make Set suck the best idea is not to use animals as much now they are weak and use the uber rax and migdol units.

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prankster959
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 04:18 PM EDT (US)     2 / 52       
Set has lots of advantages:
1.Cheaper midgols and faster made chariots
2. Slingers with more HP
3. The best scouting in the game.
With a villy force on wood Set has some pretty good advantages throughout the game.
However he has strong disadvantages which do not encourage beginners to play him (and beginners usually stick w/ their main god)
1. Heaviest microe in the game needed
2. Animals waste pop space
3. There is nothing special about set now, pick isis or ra if you like eggy.

Conclusion:
Animals need more health and armor if heroes are going to have a boost against them. Animals are what sets Set apart and they need to be boosted somehow. I actually enjoyed the set wars compared to Turma spamming wars and fast titans because to play set actually requires some skill. I don't mind if ES keeps Set as a mostly expert civ. But keep him on par with the other eggies.


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Etendorf
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 04:29 PM EDT (US)     3 / 52       
Set's animals suck, Set as a god doesn't really suck that much, because he is eggy and does get some other bonuses. Also,

Quote:

Spamming monkeys is wrong.


is just plain funny.
Maybe set has something that no one sees, but I would more like to see a minor increase in set's animals that is unique and effective and finally makes them balanced, and, and the same time don't have him raised in balance ways to the other eggy, because the other eggy need to be nerfed because they are OP. That is what I think. I haven't won every game against set, because of slingers, so he isn't totally unplayable. I think, the best thing to do, is make his animals have more food, so eating them is a very good option, in which would give set a economic bonus that would put him higher with the other eggies.

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ipso
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 04:45 PM EDT (US)     4 / 52       
make it so that double clicking an animal selects all the animals, not just the animals of that type? give animals more hack armour?

i think the animals should just be more durable- if they lived longer then they would be perfect as a meat sheild for sets slingers.

Lord_Aaltar
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 05:10 PM EDT (US)     5 / 52       
It sounds like the tiny bugs (Karibou not converting sheep, arctic wolf without voice) shouldn't be to complicated to fix. True, the bugs are insignificant, but they are bugs none the less and probably really easy to fix.

As for Set's power, I actually haven't played enough to even consider my opinion to be valid. I DID notice a significant amount of difficulty as Set when I tried to play him after the patch but I am not overly experienced at Egyptians yet. I noticed that the animals were more expensive, weaker, and slower then they used to be and it seemingly took forever to convert just one animal... which was slaughtered shortly there after.


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ipso
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 05:17 PM EDT (US)     6 / 52       
yea, how about feral giving animals a major speed boost?
lessthanjakeman9
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 05:43 PM EDT (US)     7 / 52       
Ok i was here when set sucked when set dominated then he was patched but he still was awesome and now when set sucks again. There have been many changes to his animals over time. Heres what i think about it.

1. the bonus given to heroes needs to be lowered but not taken away.
2. The early animals gotten by the pharoah need to either have +33% hp or take up one less pop slot
3. make the animals 0.2 faster

Shiva
HG Alumnus
posted 16 April 2004 05:45 PM EDT (US)     8 / 52       
I did think that Set got nerfed a little too hard. But, well, we were all expecting that...it's ES' way with nerfing.

Seems to me like just giving the heroes their bonus back would have solved the problem, instead of taking away HP and nerfing Feral also.


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arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 06:28 PM EDT (US)     9 / 52       
Give villagers, Heros the bonus attack vs animal (also beast slayer tech) and restore set back. And let the animals produce the same amount of food as before converting them or when summoned. That should do.
jazzman_1
Mortal
posted 16 April 2004 11:18 PM EDT (US)     10 / 52       
My opinion on Set's animals is that they are good for one thing; that is to gather food from. I will go convert animals from the other side of the map and bring them back to my side. I've already given up on trying to use them for any offensive or defensive purposes as they are. As stands, they are entirely too weak, and take up as much pop in certain cases as top notch M.U.s, which shouldnt be the case. Now for solutions.

-I think favor cost increase for them to create from the Pharoah is one of the best solutions (which I think has already been done)

-Also, Feral should increase their stats more significantly; i.e. they should be more powerful or at least as powerful as they were before conversion.

-Conversion speed is very slow, but I think they could keep this if they just boosted them and brought down the pop cost.

-I think that animals should fall into classes: Defensive (for hunting) and offensive (for supporting troops). Obviously, animals like Giraffes are not meant to be offensive or used as force. However, animals like alligators and hyenas that aren't meant to be eaten should have decent enough stats to be effective in battle.

Just a side note: isnt' there already a maximum amount of animals that you can convert of one type? This should prevent spamming to an extent..

iam_Chrono_J
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 00:14 AM EDT (US)     11 / 52       
Set is fine. People just don't realize how important early age scouting can be, and how effective even the weak Set animals of today can make a huge impact in archaic age. I feel that the animals were never supposed to be a primary fighting force, more as a slight auxiliary to aid in scouting and early villager harrassment.

What are you going to do on highlands when the Set player has a hyena messing with your ulfsark? Ulfsark may win 1v1 (not sure) but by the time he's done with that and has the dock built, uh-oh, here comes an auroch. So much for that house the ulfsark was building.
The same could be said for villagers; auroch/any similar animal still beats a villager 1v1, and that's incredibly useful on water maps like highlands.

you may say that the bonus is nigh useless on land maps, well, wrong. Early age scouting=good strategy choices, and you still have the chance at picking off unwary hunting vills, and with a priest you can help steal away part of your opponent's hunting. Preists convert huntables relatively quickly.

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 00:29 AM EDT (US)     12 / 52       
^^ u r quite rt but if thats his bonus allow Pharoah to summon a bird and priests to convert birds and remove the capability to attack make them cost 1 pop slot and 1 or 2 favor. That would make him good.
Antz
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 03:38 AM EDT (US)     13 / 52       
Reduce the animals' pop cap with 50%. Then he'll be good again, just keep the stats and conversion time.

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choda
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 03:49 AM EDT (US)     14 / 52       
Set has no advantages when contrasted with other 2 egypt civs.

with RA and hathor the buildings are strong and cheap .
with ra scout with pharoh and scouting is fine with a priest back at the base empowering. + relics can be picked up.

Economy is weak when looking at isis or RA.
Myth units are ok but not great.

Slingers are ok but not as great as you would think .
as soon as hades arches or posidon cavalry or norse cavalry show up in the classical they suck ass.

Set should be the one egypt god who can rush or boom or defend well against a rush..... something

He was my fav egypt god i have played hundreds of games with him . And the only bonus he has is the scouting .. but a greek scout can cover the map almost as well .

His animals are more of a penalty than a bonus .
i would be content without them truth bee known like i said i have played hundreds of games with him and never have animals done crap for me. They have however maxed my population when aging past the limit i have, and stoped my worker production till i can build a house. They have chewed up population slots . common 2 pop for a deer . What would you want 2 deer who can be killed by one villager from any civ. Or an upgraded elephant. The animals are a joke .

They should take up no pop slots at all with the current strength . ill put 40 converted deer or caribou up against 5 atlantian villagers ... bet the villagers win. that is 80 pop slots vs 15 . converted animals are a joke villagers shoot at them !!

Set needs a distinct eco boost . im surprised the lure power went to posidon smells of a set power to me.
perhaps if animals were summoned in battle for 0 pop if a priest was present like a loki myth unit .. or slingers had the offencive potential of hades archers .

I use him now when i need a change ... yes his infantry can be the strongest for egypt but whoopdee dooo upgraded anti infantry from any civ will plow them down .

Isis has economy and GP defence
RA has economy and uber midgol units. his upgraded camels will lay a beat down on most troop types.

Set has what a slightly more powerfull first age unit ...
and animals who fall down in a siff wind. perhaps His bonus should have been Elephants and not slingers . He could have Uber elephats not unlike a gold colosus . the ultimate meat shield.

I dunno its late im tired .... Set is weak all i can say about him is he was all i played for 3 months ....then i read on posts he sucked so i switched to RA ..... Now if i play vs a Set player i chew them up ...He made me a better Egypt player ....because he sucked ...

[This message has been edited by choda (edited 04-17-2004 @ 03:53 AM).]

ed99
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 05:02 AM EDT (US)     15 / 52       
Hades Archers get slaughtered by Set slingers ..

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THE_champion95
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 05:43 AM EDT (US)     16 / 52       

Quote:

i switched to RA ..... Now if i play vs a Set player i chew them up ...He made me a better Egypt player ....because he sucked ...

Of course Ra is much more powerful than Set but If your playing against a non-eggy opponent at lot of the time u can pwn them because eggy are so powerful.


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arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 07:01 AM EDT (US)     17 / 52       
Archers are supposed to get slaughter by counter archers. Even Ra's slingers do the same if u follow the same god path. Set cannot realy on migold units as his economy is crap. He has no eco bonus all he has is good slinger(who can be used only if the opponent goes archers). Faster production of chariot archers and slingers.
What is the point of faster production when he doesnot have the economy to maintain them.
Let the animals summoned for food be benifitial as compared to hunting and they have no pop slots and no attack. a fast moving scout and a bird to control.( That way they will be good scouts and summoned animals will be good source of food and he need not be concerned about too many farm. Some sort of eco bonus.
DeaconEire
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 04:47 PM EDT (US)     18 / 52       
What I am suprised at are all the downsides his animals come with:

- cannot be healed
- Recieve Bonus damage from Heroes
- Are affected by carnivora's special and spiders

I mean they should be either MUs (which fair badly VS heroes) and then not be affected by other God powers

OR

They should count as normal units and not do so badly against heroes.

They basicly get the downsides from both unit classes. Also their damage VS buildings is abismal!

Quircus
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 04:54 PM EDT (US)     19 / 52       

Quote:

Seems to me like just giving the heroes their bonus back would have solved the problem, instead of taking away HP and nerfing Feral also.

They
- Decreased HP
- Increased Pop Space
- Decreased Armour
- Decreased Feral's Effectiveness
- Increased Conversion Time
- Heroes recieve Bonus Damage vs Animals (+250% in most cases)

of most Animals. Easy thing to do would be to restore 2 of these factors (IMO, HP and Conversion Time would be best)

[This message has been edited by Quircus (edited 04-17-2004 @ 04:55 PM).]

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 05:10 PM EDT (US)     20 / 52       
I say restore everything that set lost and give the Hero bonus and a villager bonus vs Animals (also beast slayer should do the same), that way they cannot raid and remain effective vs normal units.

I seriously think that only the villagers need to have a heavy bonus up against animals as only early rushes were a big problem and everything else should be back. ( common set has no eco bonus and any army of cavalry can take away his other bonus quite effectively.)

If they are supposed to only scout and act as food supply. let them provide the same food after convertion, reduce pop slots to 1 and give the pharoah a bird in classical.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-17-2004 @ 05:18 PM).]

choda
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 07:53 PM EDT (US)     21 / 52       
Now you are talking an air scout would be a nice bonus.
If he could summon something like a crow or flying ibis that would be a step in the right direction.

And im not sure about the slingers owning hades archers ..
i lost to them pleanty of times .. I believe they have more upgrades and range. correct me if im wrong but a hades archer will kill a slinger if thy both have full upgrades yes/no. I was in abattle with hades player once he had all archer army so i thought ok ill go all slinger
upgraded them fought with em lost with em .

Most greek armies will plow thru a set slinger army with the aid of a few heros . If there was a Set specific slinger upgrade that increased damage vs buildings that would be nice.

But Mostly it's the lack of economy that kills him . Egypt has the weakest units in the game cheaper and weaker . However if the economy isn't there to spam troops like crazy .. You will loose to any civ whith more resources than you when a battle starts. If Hades for example has built alot of barraks (which he mostly does) then the longer unit production time is not a factor and the stronger units start to push you back. If you dont have the economy to out flood him ... it's over.

SeaBass
Mortal
posted 17 April 2004 11:51 PM EDT (US)     22 / 52       
Alright, I play Set almost exclusively these days when I want to go Eggy. There are a couple of things that stand out to me, a low 1700 player, that distinguish him greatly from the other Egyptians.

Animals rock, they simply cost too much pop at the moment. I'm pretty sure the pop cost is lower in Vanilla AoM at the moment. In addition, Hyena's are faster in Vanilla - 4.00 speed compared to 3.6 in The Titans. But a free whatever is nice, and the fact they provide that little cushion, or buffer if you will, is a decent bonus.

Slingers with more hit points and more hack armor is nice, but they lose to Hades Peltasts so you can't bank on them in every situation.

Cheaper Migdols is one of the biggest advantages, though Hathor can negate that advantage, the fact remains that Set has the cheapest "Castle" of all civs, and compared to Norse who pay 250 wood/250 gold for a Hill Fort, Set's 300 Gold seems almost criminal.

Vision + SS/Ancestors/Tornado/Meteor or whatever can take out a Titan Gate. It's nice to have if you save Vision.

Set's economy isn't the best, not having access to Bast hurts, but Ptah provides cheaper farms so there's no excuse for not dropping a ton of them. Isis is so much stronger though, so I understand why many players prefer her or Ra to Set.

That's just fine by me though, I like playing the less popular civs, especially when they're as strong as Set is. Gaia, on the other hand, I won't touch in a rated game. Early myth unit armies can cause Gaia nightmares.

Centurion_13
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 00:06 AM EDT (US)     23 / 52       
well most of those problems you can fix by editing your proto/protox. eg you can make the caribou convert herds by putting this in:
<unittype>LogicalTypeConvertsHerds</unittype>
and you can fix the hp and armour problems by change the stats.

of coarse this will screw up multiplayer games when the animals are used lol but you can fix single player.

Quircus
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:38 AM EDT (US)     24 / 52       

Quote:

And im not sure about the slingers owning hades archers ..
i lost to them pleanty of times .. I believe they have more upgrades and range. correct me if im wrong but a hades archer will kill a slinger if thy both have full upgrades yes/no. I was in abattle with hades player once he had all archer army so i thought ok ill go all slinger
upgraded them fought with em lost with em

You must've forgotten Armoury Upgrades or something.

Fully Upgraded Slingers (Ptah) vs Fully Upgraded Hades Toxotes (Ares-Apollo-Artemis)

Slinger wins with approx 8 HP remaining. Although this sucks for a Hard Counter, it still works. Also, Slingers are Cheaper than Toxotes and are more easily produced.

If he's dumb enough to make pure Toxotes, go 2:1 Slingers/Camels and destroy him (Camels also useful for taking out Heroes and Villagers).

Vassilis
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 12:44 PM EDT (US)     25 / 52       
Set's animals get a small boost in hp and attack when you hit heroic and mythic also converted/summoned animals can help delay spending gold on farms. They are good considering the fact they cost only a little favour and train instantly.

I think Set is stronger than Ra cause Ra has no aggresive gp's, no animals to absorb hits from his real units or stronger slings which make Ra weak to a strong classical rash. I play Zeus and personally I find Ra an easier opponent than Set.

What has happened in my opinion is that Set players were used to animals be way OP and now that Set is as balanced as he can possibly be they think they are useless. The same thing will happen if atties are properly nerfed in the next patch. Attie players will come and say shockwave suck, Prometheans are useless, Turma train too slow or whatever.

Oh btw 1 on 1 editor tests are useless try having 20 hades toxotes vs 20 set slingers and you will see the difference

discordant
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 01:34 PM EDT (US)     26 / 52       
I've thought about Set and what could be done to fix him. I think an interesting possible solution would be to swap around archaic GPs. Set has the weakest econ in the game, and it's really crippling. So, change the Archaic GPs so that:
Ra has Vision
Isis has Rain
Set has Prosperity.

After all, Set is kind of the "evil" god of the three, and money is typically associated with evil and selfishness. Isis is the goddess of life and rebirth, so Rain is a natural for her. Ra is the Sun God, so it would be natural for him to be able to peer down from above.

This would help Set significantly in Classic age, and I think Ra and Isis would be just as strong, though obviously their style of play would change a bit.

DeaconEire
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 02:29 PM EDT (US)     27 / 52       
While I like this idea,, ES have never yet changed GPs/MUs or God paths. All they'll do is gonna be something like 10% more hitpoints or something which won't help. Then they are gonna make another attempt at it and totally blow it out of proportion (just like they did in 1.05/1.06...) Maybe Set is just beyond repair by now :S

[This message has been edited by DeaconEire (edited 04-18-2004 @ 02:30 PM).]

arunprasaad_s
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 06:26 PM EDT (US)     28 / 52       
I would like the following changes. It would not be a big deal to make the following changes and will really change the tables.
1. Rewive set back allowing heros to retain their bonus vs animals and give the villagers a bigger bonus vs animals.

[This will solve the eggy of being a super power late game and give the wonder a meaning]

2. If a player has a Wonder his Myth units are Cheaper and occupy one less pop slot and provides a free flow of favour.

[Since norse and Greeks have better myth units they will be able to do even better against eggy and will be forced to mass priest to counter them and less chances of Merc spam as they will not be effective against Myth unit and due to more priest there will be a greater stress on economy
It will be good against titans too.]

Due guys think that this will be good.

[This message has been edited by arunprasaad_s (edited 04-18-2004 @ 06:28 PM).]

PhoenixBird
Mortal
posted 18 April 2004 07:25 PM EDT (US)     29 / 52       
IMO this should be done to Set:

-1)"Weak" animals like apes, caribou, deer, gazelle, etc take -1 pop space.

It gets really annoying that a unit of 15 HP, crappy armor and a attack of 3-5 takes 2 slots

-2)More Feral Myth tech to the temple.

This will allow the Set player to research the tech and use the TC at the same time, without stoping the economical build orders

-3)Not really sure about this, but maybe improve the Feral tech so it gives 30-50% better HP to animals

Lets say, a standard deer as 15 HP, you get Feral and it gets 18 HP. Lol, not too much change. I say making them 21-23 HP would be ok, after all they gona die after 4 or 5 slices with that armor.

1 and 2 seems the best IMO.


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Thors_hammer_256
Mortal
posted 19 April 2004 00:15 AM EDT (US)     30 / 52       
Don't forget that Set has the best archaic scouting in the game, maybe set is not UP, just not popular (remember what happened with Flank and Hades).

BUt if changes are to be made then this is what i think:

Im sure nobody wants the reign of the zoo to return.

IMO, migdols should cost 250G for Set, that would be awesome!
And perhaps a slightly better bonus on his archers, i know they are cheaper and quicker to train but not by much... maybe more hitpoints?

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