K Iīll just say this.. Iīve never ever said Greeks were OP. In fact, I think theyīre UP. And I also never said the TA was awfully, horribly terrible. However, rcs are better than their cost, and TAs are worse than theirs. This may balance out, but Iīd like it better if Tas were better, and rcs slightly nerfed. Fact is, TA has had more taken away from it than any other unit in the game, and it is a very predictable unit in that it is the only antiinf norse have. And yes, rcs beat spearmen pop eff. in classical (but not cost efficiently). But why do you put that in response to a quote that eggies have many counters to TAs? And donīt tell me, that with an ele meatshield, or with chariot archers backing up axes/spears, that the rc+ta combo holds up.. Norse need Jarls or Husks in that situation, and they are slower to create, and donīt quite meet expectations. And of course, Norse units are slower to create than eggy rax, so in practice eggies may do very well staying in classical.
I know sarcasm very well, thank you. But calling ppl noobs the first chance you get, and using expressions like "gay undermine" is better described with another word - idiocy.
I think it is a well known fact that some Norse units are way better than others, and that ES has sometimes balanced the "wrong" unit (like nerfing TAs in the FU Jarl/TA combo). This leads to some gods (Bragi) essentially being indispensable, and that could be redone.
Btw, pop for Hoplites.. again I never said greeks were OP. And it really is a small mistake.. Iīve played maybe 50 games as greeks, without that making any difference. You build hops when you have to, as Zeus and as Hades. And no, 99,99.. of ppl on this forum donīt know that.. I just had some moron flaming me for comparing murmillos with ulfs since "murmillos are a mythical Zeus unit".
Here then is a more whole-picture list of what I think should be done to Norse (I know Kumar is itching for one , I know civs should be balanced as a whole, but units and gods must be balanced individually too, for them all to be viable - otherwise ppl will only play civs in one specific way, and then it gets boring. If tox got 12 dam and hoplites/hipps were nerfed to 4, things might balance out, but it would still suck.
TAs - lower multiplier to 2, increase dam to 6.rcs - lower hack armor 5%, and lower hp to 100.
ulfs - little higher base hp
Bragi - swine array gives only 1.5x multiplier, call of Valhalla slightly nerfed also. (Ulfs have higher base HP, this helps to balance that)
Tyr - Berserkergang no longer gives hp/a to ulfs, but gives infantry 1.5x bonus to cav, and improves speed of all units (makes sense with the added strength and stamina of a human gone berserk, and helps prevent Thors ulfs from becoming uber). Since all Norse can choose Tyr, they can now all get a unit with bonus vs cav.
Hel - Nidhogg gets a big boost. Getting all giants is nice, but you donīt really need all 3, and fenris wolves may still be better than FGs, esp for shock raiding the enemy. Techs donīt help that much either.. Itīs much easier for me to finish the enemy when I go Tyr as Loki now, even though Hel should suit Loki better.
Skadi - frost lasts longer, maybe decrease radius somewhat. This should make it more useful, esp considering itīs a heroic GP. Huntress axe will affect the higher base damage of tas more, making her an alternative to Bragi, which she really isnīt now.
And Spectre, you hurt my feelings.. Norse werenīt a weak civ, in fact if the game should represent reality Norse would have the best armor, since they had a special ringmail/leather blend that was the strongest at the time.. of course Egypt would get to start the game 30 mins before anyone else, and greeks should have 5x pop cap if ES simulated reality, so I donīt think thatīs what theyīve tried to do..
[This message has been edited by Johnny_Deppig (edited 04-20-2004 @ 06:05 PM).]