Quoted from iamyourgod:
i think this because you can take nearly every strat made specificaly for the other norse gods(except loki hesir rush)
Quoted from iamyourgod:
and flaming weapons+rag is just too much. having 130+ over your pop cap nad they all have 29 attack. that is just crap.
Personally, I find that Laming Weapons does not make that much of a difference when I use ragnarok. In order to be overpowered (= lame), Thor would have to be superior to the majority of gods. The reality is that he is superior to almost no gods, but has equal strength to most. However, there are some gods that he is even clearly inferior to. These include Zeus, Oranos, and Kronos. Under these circumstances, talking about Thor being lame is pretty much ridiculous. A god like Isis that can always play the same tactics and win is lame. A god that must always adapt to the enemy strategy is not lame just because he has the ability to do so. To the contrary: Playing such a god requires much more skill, knowledge, and intelligence. Lame gods are Isis, Ra, Oranos and Kronos IMHO. It would be easy to fix if ES cared about it: elephants -50 hp and Atl slightly slower archaic economy should do the trick.
Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
I dont use Kronos cuz rushing ALL the time would be boring and i diçon't use Oranos because he is way to easy to play IMHO, but instead i play a hard god who many think is underpowered:Gaia. Gaia's strength is i her econ, which gives her a good way to keep pumpin out units and only takin some minor losses. Better econ=better units however you need to learn how to manage the econ jus like you need to learn how to manage a Loki rush. Atty isn't lame, just misunderstood
NOTE* This just reminded me of a Loki Player I played. He told me it was bullcrap how cheap my MU are. lol!
Quoted from Kaminoan:
You say of a slower Aty econ in arcaic but econ is one of atty's strengths
An alternative might be nerfing Prometheus, for he is the obligatory god for both Kronos and Oranos. It might be that not Atl, but Prometheus is op. Reducing the Valor power to 1 affected unit might be a solution. It is a rechargable god power after all. This would reduce both the number of free military units that Kronos gets for his rush and the number of Oranos' turma heroes.
And I definitely think deconstruction should not be rechargable. Remember that deconstruction can remove a whole fortress! That the enemy gets back his resources matters little if the fortress stood at a key spot. Compare this to god powers like forest fire. And I definitely think docks should not be deconstructable until classical age.
Remember that there was a time when Set was grossly op. Back then, his animals were stronger, and heroes got no bonus against them. It was the same problem: Set got virtually free military with which he could attack before the other races could use their own strengthes. Set animals destroying the enemy dck was also a major balance problem. As the consequence, the subsequent patch halved the attack of Set animals against buildings So you can see, imbalance caused by free military has a history. Quoted from Kaminoan: but instead i play a hard god who many think is underpowered:Gaia. Quoted from Kaminoan: Better econ=better units however you need to learn how to manage the econ jus like you need to learn how to manage a Loki rush. Atty isn't lame, just misunderstood
I do not think Gaia is underpowered. She is the weakest of the three Atl gods, so ppl that want to play Attie rarely pick her, but she is fully playable. If anything, she is perhaps not as op as the other Attie races.
That goes for your Gaia, but not for Oranos and Kronos. A god that can crush its opponent with a simple and fully predictable rush before he even has the chance to hit classical age is lame. And so is a god who just needs to turma-spam, because his raids cannot be prevented (Oranos).
Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
[This message has been edited by cowfan28 (edited 12-13-2005 @ 08:17 AM).]
So, for those of you very good with thor do you agree with all that's said in this guide? if not, what do you differ with? it sounds pretty good, especially the various stratagies like the ulfer rush and so forth and which gods they work well against. Also, what about the build order? And the advance times?
Thanx
MINOR GODS
Classical: Forsetti or Freyja
Forsetti:
Technologies
Hamarrtroll Trolls: +50% HP, +2 range, +20% attack
Decent tech if you are massing trolls against a fellow norse. Only get it once you have 4 or 5 trolls though, as it's better to get another troll before that.
Hall of Thanes: Hersir +10% HP and speed
Really useful for Loki but not as much for Thor. Good to get your hersirs the speed to go around and hit the MU's with a bit of added power. Still only get it if your enemy is going really heavy on MU's (like against the centaur strangle or the minotaur rush)
Mithril Breastplate: Ulfsarks have -10% hack damage vulnerability
Very good tech when against a fellow norse player. Add this to your crazy armory hack armor upgrading and you have an unstoppable unit. I would only use it against norse though because its not essential when you have units that counter you, but have pierce attack. Of course if you're going for uber ulfs this could also be good.
Myth Unit: Troll
I personally dont like this MU that much. Its main use is vs other norse. It does pierce attack which other norse players may not upgrade for. Its also a very good ranged Mu killer. All in all its a good MU but only in certain situations. Make sure you use it vs the right civs too. It's very good against Zeus since it really hurts his low pierce armor hoplites. Against a poseidon player it may not be as good because he'll be massing hippikons who have high pierce armor.
God power: Healing Spring
Heals your guys at 2.5 hp per second when near it. Great to heal your raiders and to heal after your army retreats. Its not a powerful GP but its quite easy to make good use out of it. Basically its like a permanent resoration. It makes your raiding that much more potent and stops you from having an army of all near death guys which i can tell you is not good. Again not powerful but i like it.
Frejya
Technologies:
Aurora Borealis: Valkyrie +50% hack damage, +20% crush damage, +33% healing rate
A good tech if you have 3 or more valks. Since you dont have healing spring you really want to have some good healing for your raids. So i like that the part of it the best. The other ones make a difference but i usually dont have enough valks for extra attack to pay for the tech.
Thundering Hooves: Cavalry +10% speed, +10% HP. Valkyrie +20% speed, +10% HP
Great tech if you plan on raiding. It basically makes your rc and valks raiding machines. They can get in there faster and get out faster and with higher hp significantly fewer rc will die in raids. This tech also makes valks one of the fastest units in the game. I like to use the valk to go right across his base near the tc and in doing so ill find a lot of his gathering operations. With this tech nothing can catch it and it will be hit less by the tc. Very important tech to get if you plan on raiding. It's also worth noting that when in heroic this upgrades your jarls too. So if you are doing a fast heroic this tech is very important.
Myth unit: Valkyrie
Very fast cavalry MU that can heal units. I usually make
2-3 of these in a game. I raid with them on one side and with my rc on another. Then i retreat back to the same place, heal and repeat. This makes for killer raiding. The group of rc should also be backed with one valkyrie to increase their LOS, which really increases raiding ability. I also use their speed and pierce armor to go near the tc and find what they are doing within its range allowing me to find out what they are must be doing outside of it. Its important to make at least two of them if youre going to make any because they heal eachother. Its much better than the troll in most games. I find it to be the best raider in the game.
God Power: Forest Fire
I never used to like this GP until the last game i played. Basically find his wood operations, cast forest fire and trap his vils in with your rc. In the game i played i killed every single wood vil (7 or 8 i cant remember) he had by doing this. It also took down a house and an armory. This is the best against greek. You take out his wood within tower range so hes without it for a while which hurts. He also has to go outside tower range now where he will be raided to death by your valks and rc.
THE CHOICE: go forsetti against fellow norse and spam trolls. Against greek go Freyja for forest fire. Against eggy Forsetti. The troll is a pierce attack unit that isn't countered by slingers which makes it very good and killing their wood gatherers with forest fire isn't very good since eggy won't have a lot of people on wood. Against attie go freyja for uber raiding.
Heroic: Bragi or Skadi
Bragi
Technologies:
Call of Valhalla: Ulfsarks +20% HP
Very good tech. Used to get uber ulfsarks. If you use the Thor armory correctly you can make your ulfs uncounterable and this just reinforces it since it adds somewhere between 16 and 20 hp. great tech
Swine Array: Ulfsark have damage x2 vs Cavalry
I personally think this is one of the best techs in the game. It really makes ulfs a hard counter to cavalry. But they still stand up to other units, especially if you use your armory right and upgrade the right armor. Basically if you get Bragi's two techs and you have upgraded your armory a lot ulfs can become the best unit in the game which is pretty amazing since they aren't very good to begin with.
Thurisaz Rune: All myth units move 12% faster
I don't research this tech. I guess its good if you have a load of valks and want them to be even faster. I still dont recomend getting this tech though. It would be good if you could get this tech and still make some giants since giants speed is their weakness. However you can't get frost giants or mountain giants if you go bragi and fire giants aren't in as much need of speed since they are ranged.
Myth Unit: Battle Boar
Best MU in the game. Its special is great for stunning a load of archers (its basically a mini shockwave gp) and it is great vs buildings and units alike. It lasts a long time and can turn the tide of almost any battle.
God Power: Flaming Weapons
Best GP in the game. It makes all your units on the battlefield (unlike bronze) have 2x attack multiplier. Basically you can win any battle with it and destroy any base with it in a matter of seconds. A great combo is to use ragnarok and flaming weapons. Makes your army almost unbeatable and is a game ender 98% of the time. The only problem is that the god power can be countered by ceasefire. To offset this a bit use FW then use fimbulwinter right away to stop ceasefire.
Skadi
Technologies:
Huntress Axe: Throwing Axeman have 20% more attack
Basically adds 1 attack to your TA. If you decided to upgrade your TA at the Thor armory (useful vs any civ) then this is a great tech. I usually get this tech even if TA are only in a support role because otherwise they aren't that good of a unit.
Winter Harvest: Farmers gather food from farms 20% faster
I love this tech. Great on maps with little food like oasis. It makes you gather from farms at .793 per second. Thats faster than herd animals! Its even faster than hunting without hunting dogs. When i start getting a lot of farms i immediately get this tech and i never have food problems again (with other civs i am always low on food once i start farming)
Rime: Frost Giants have 33% more HP, 20% more attack, and special attack recharges 25% faster
One of the better MU techs. If you have 3 frost giants get this tech. Its capitalizes on the frost giants advantage of his special. It also just makes him way more of a tank and gives him much better attack.
Myth Unit: Frost giant
Quite good. Has a great special that freezes units for a while. Because of this try to aim the special on myth units or units with a lot of attack. This unit is slow but still faster than other giants. Still with not very good pathing you want to have your frost giant at the front when a battle comes so that he'll actually end up fighting. Frost giants are also great for killing seige. They can freeze them rendering the seige useless then kill them with their hack attack. (thanks to VAL_the speaker for telling me about that)
God Power: Frost
I love this GP possibly more than flaming weapons. There are three main uses for it
1. If your base is surprise attacked or you are raided heavily you can frost his army and get your army back there. Also good as a sort of ceasefire allowing you time to make more units to combat this attack
2. If an opponent is making a tc frost his army guarding the building of it, break it down and build one or yours on top of it. Then you will win the battle that ensues because you will have the tc firing on them.
3. Run into his base, frost his army and completely demolish the base.
The only thing that makes worse than FW is that its harder to find a way to use it in a game. But its still pretty easy and it cant be countered by ceasefire as easily.
THE CHOICE: Go skadi against possy and zeus if they went hermes and go skadi on low food maps like oasis. Otherwise go bragi.
Mythic Age: Tyr or Baldr
Tyr
Technologies:
Berserkergang: Ulfsarks have 20% more HP and 10% more attack
Basically this just adds to your bragi ulfs and makes them quite unstoppable. Only get this tech if you've gone bragi though since there's not much point in massing ulfs otherwise. If you have ulfs in a support role it's still useful to get the tech, but it's not a priority.
Bravery: Huskarls have +20% attack and do damage x1.5 vs buildings.
Huskarls are one of the best all around units in the game. Get this tech, mass husks and watch yourself win. That's how good this tech is. I love it.
Myth Unit: Fenris Wolf Brood
Regular, above average unit except when massed get huge bonuses. If you've been doing a lot of fighting, have a lot of favor and have stable market trade going mass these. 10 of them can completely kill any base before his army gets back. Only get them if you know you'll have enough resources to mass them though.
Myth Unit: Jormond Brood
Great water MU. I saw a game where salska won back the water solely with these things.
God Power: Fimbulwinter
Great for wrecking his eco. Even if he gets his vils in towers a few will die before they do get there and the wolves will down the towers and kill the rest. Very good gp but you must not let him recover you must attack him right afterwards. Better yet attack him then mid battle cast it. He will have to choose between microing the battle or his vils resulting in a major advantage. For instance he'll probably go back and micro his vills so you can run away and watch his units come at you single file and kill them.
Baldr
Technologies:
Sons of Sleipnir: Raiding Cavalry have their bonus damage increased to x3.25 vs Archers and x 3.75 vs Throwing Axemen.
Great tech. Get it if you massed rc or even if you didnt because he's not gonna make archers if he sees you've massed rc. So make ulfs and once they die replace them all with rc with this tech and watch them win.
Dwarven Auger: Portable Rams train 50% faster, have +20% attack and speed
Very useful vs turtlers. You can just churn out rams like there's no tomorrow. Its very hard to stop a few fully upgraded rams with this tech. Don't get it if your opponent isn't a turtle though.
Arctic Gale: Dragon Boats +20% speed, -30% hack vulnerability
If there is still fighting on water use this to end the fighting. Ive never had a water game go this late so i don't know how good it is. It sounds like it could win you the water pretty handily though. Just mass some dragon boats, and if the enemy doesn't have naval MU's there nothing much that can beat you.
Myth Unit: Fire Giant
Great ranged MU. Make 2-3 of them and you've got a great support weapon. They are also great against buidings. They kind of have the gastraphetes thing going where they can kill units really well and kill buildings really well. I personally value them a lot and make them whenever i can. However they are rather expensive so i usually only get them when i have a good amount of trade going.
God Power: Ragnarok
Game ender right here! Great in the x-pack for taking out titans super quick. When used with FW you can win any game. This is basically an unstoppable combo. Its also great for making a titan gate super quick. All in all a great gp. It is risky though and you should queue up loads of vills from all your tc's after you do this in case your attack is beaten back.
THE CHOICE: I would go Tyr if you don't think the game will last to the titan age or if you want to win back the water. If the game looks like its gonna go for the long haul then go baldr.
Thor strategies:
1. Ulfsark flood
Go to classical extremely early with a lot of vills/dwarves on food. Then spam ulfsarks. You must make dwarves while you are spamming if you hope to have enough food. Ulfsarks take only 9 seconds to build so with 3 longhouses building them you can have 15 ulfs by 6:15 pretty easily. Attack them at that point. Take down their few military buildings. Then split your force. Have one take out towers and another seek out villagers. Then keep flooding ulfs in while getting some armory upgrades (get 1 or 2 pierce upgrades to save you from towers) Then start making the counter to their counter of ulfs. For instance tox counter ulfs so start making raiding cavalry. Once he starts making the counter retreat and bring up your reserve that counters that unit. Keep flooding them and upgrading your ulfs. Most of the time with an attack this early they stand little chance. Once you have sufficiently stopped anything they may have go heroic and use flaming weapons to finish them off. Yes its just as easy to counter the ulf flood as it is a loki rush but people wont expect this so it will be harder to counter. Its also useful to use the ulfsark flood without a forward base to defend against rushers like Loki.
Wow with this strat i managed to have 15 ulfs by 6:45 minutes even though i played horribly, had idle tc time and wasn't making ulfs all the time when i actually could have. By 8:30 i had 32 guys in my army that were all upgraded with the whole copper line and the second attack upgrade. This strategy works extremely well.
Best used against: Norse, atlanteans
COUNTER: make anti infantry and make MU's that give pierce damage.
COUNTER TO THE COUNTER: bring your hersirs. Most people wont know to make anti-infantry against Thor since he has so many different strategys. They will only know if they scout you out well and find your army. So what you must do is keep your ulfs out of the way while you build them up. Onnly let them see your other units.
2. Classical fighting
Get to classical around the 5 minute mark. Make about 10-15 raiding cavalry and raid them. Get some valkyries to heal your units and raid. Once you have like 12 rc split them into two groups and raid both sides at once. When you find his wood operation use forest fire and trap the vills in with your rc, hopefully killing 5-8 vills. Just keep the pressure up while still making TA and RC. Slowly expand your base with towers and other buildings. Try to lure their forces off to battle under tower fire. With a lesser eco from your raids he won't be able to get his units back as fast. Anways at about 9-11 minutes when you feel his eco is dead just attack him with your army. This should be enough to win. Its pretty straightforward but is very effective. If the opponent is especially hard to beat, then go to heroic and use one of the awesome gp's on them.
Best used against: greek and eggy
COUNTER: put anti cav near all your gathering sites
COUNTER TO THE COUNTER: make an all out attack on his base. If he has guys at all his gathering sites then his whole army wont be there to stop you until you've done a load of damgae.
3. Fast heroic
With dwarves it can be very easy to stockpile food to get to heroic rather quickly. Don't rely on all dwarves though because they take longer to build. Build the armory during the transition to classical. Once you get to heroic spam hill forts and huskarls. If even slighly upgraded (which as thor they should be upgraded hugely) husks are almost unstoppable. Against eggy spam jarls instead because of axemen (although if they FH too then go husks) and make a mix vs norse. Raid with your free valkyrie. Take all the tc's first (in vanilla). Once you feel your hill forts protect your base and your units are all upgraded a lot attack their base. Thor heroic units are awesome. When backed with some rams you have an awesome army. Use your heroic gp rather early to regain your footing since he'll undoubtedly have a larger army than you. With larger pop, more upgrades, and loads of tc's pumping out vills you should should be able to win rather handily since its hard to get through spammed hill forts to take out your tc's. In this instance its good to keep dwarven mine so that you can use it if he denies you gold before you get to heroic. Go to mythic with baldr if the game is even and go tyr if you're about to win since bravery can really help your husks.
Best used against: greeks, eggy
COUNTER: Raid them early and try to asess whether they are FHing. If you think they are then all out attack them
COUNTER TO THE COUNTER: upgrade towers with crenellations and maybe get a few ulfs or hersir to guard your gathering operations.
4. Balanced Thor Build
Basically this involves a reasonably fast classical and making 10-15 RC and 10-15 TA. Mix in a few valks or trolls. Raid them with your rc that are split into two groups to allow you to hit them at both sides at once. Use healing spring or forest fire to aid your raiding. Upgrade your rc's hack armor heavily. Keep the infantry that you make back to stop your opponents raids. Keep raiding them heavily. At about 12-14 minutes go to heroic and get a load of hill forts and tc's. Make as many heroic units as you can while booming out of your extra tc's. When you make your main attack with a full popped, upgraded army use your heroic gp. This should overwhelm them and you should gain a victory. If it doesn't go to mythic and finish them off with ragnorok/titan.
This is my favorite strategy as Thor and i have an incredible Build Order that is just too good to be true.
-First 2 dwarves to dwarven mine near tc
-next 5 gatherers to food. Get hunting dogs and pigsticker as soon as possible if there is any hunting
-2 gatherers + ox cart to wood
-1 dwarf to gold
-2 dwarves to food
-3 gatherers to wood
-2 dwarves + ox cart to gold
Advance to classical
After that i just improvise.
Anyways this build order can allows me to get to classical before 5 minutes, have 3 rax pumping out units non stop (also with the temple making a few valks) as well as no idle tc time. I can get the whole first copper line and medium cav upgrade at about 8-9 minutes and start getting the next line of armory techs before i go to heroic with full pop. I get to heroic between 12-14 minutes with enough wood and gold to put up 2 tcs right away and a hill fort or two right after that. Then i attack with a full 3 tc pop army using flaming weapons and destroy them.
Please note that this build order can also be used for any other strategy as well.
Best against: all
COUNTER: get to classical before them (which is hard because if you're a fast civ like Loki the Thor player will just go faster than you because of dwarves) Raid them very early then build up a full pop army around 10 minutes and attack them while they are saving for heroic.
COUNTER TO THE COUNTER: upgrade your towers. If against a fast civ then get to classical before 5 minutes. Upgrade your guys hugely so as to beat his larger army around 10 minutes. You should have a lot of favor from heavy raiding so make a lot of trolls if against norse and a lot of valks if against anyone else.
5. One unit rush
This strategy revolves around Thors armory. Here's what you do. You get to classical around 5 minutes. just mass a unit that your enemy doesn't have a hard counter (gets a big multiplier) against. Then just upgrade either its hack or pierce armor depending on what type of attack the enemys soft counter is. For instance against eggy you'd mass rc because they have hard counters to ulfs and throwing axemen but not rc. Spearmen do hack damage so you'd just upgrade your hack armor like mad. The enemy will still throw his spearmen at you despite the fact that you've upgraded it up to like mythic in armor. Using this allows you to counter every unit he makes. For instance with incredible hack armor rc beats up spearmen and axemen. They already beat up slingers, so nothing will change there. Just keep massing this unit. If its rc raid them as well and if it's an infantry unit, then take out their buidings. Especially if it's ulfsarks you are using it's important to take out their outposts so they dont turn into towers that kill ulfs like knives through butter.
Best used against:eggy
COUNTER: Hit them early so that they don't get the upgrades.
COUNTER TO THE COUNTER: get an upgrade during the transition and just raid them early on as well.
7. Fast mythic:
Get a fast mythic using dwarves. Get tc's rather early and boom out of them. Make a small army to deal with raids and upgrade your towers and tower/hill fort spam. Then go to mythic before 14 minutes and use ragnorok+flaming weapons and its gg. Another thing you could do is get a titan really fast using ragnorok and use FW plus the titan to secure your win
best against: Gaia, eggy, hades
COUNTER: Obviously just hit them early and raid wood to stop them from tower spamming.
COUNTER TO THE COUNTER: have multiple wood spots so that they can't stop your wood income fully. Towers also cost gold but he cant stop you from getting that since you have dwarven mine.
What strat is best to use vs which god
1. Loki: Ulfsark flood so that you can actually outmass him early on.
2. Odin: Ulfsark flood because it will stop his raids (ulfs counter rc) and an early rush will stop his FH
3. Thor: your choice really since there is no 'best strat' when against your own civ
4. Isis: Fast Mythic because your ragnorok will kill her fast titan and she's not a rushing civ so he won't kill you before you get there
5. Ra: Rush him with all raiding cavalry that have uber hack armor.
6. Set: get pigsticker to stop any animal harrassement. Then just play him like hes Ra and mass hack armored raiding cavalry.
7. Poseidon: You can't rush greek so just raid him and have some ulfs back at your base to stop his raids. Then get to heroic and use the GP to win.
8. Zeus: Go forsetti and mass trolls. They should stop his hoplites AND his MU's. Have a meatshield of raiding cavalry. Then go Skadi to get huntress axe. This will make it stupid for him to use hops therefore making his main bonus void.
9. Hades: Fast Heroic: Most likely he'll FH too so you need to do the same to match his tc count (vanilla). On titans fast mythic and rag/FW him.
10. Gaia: Mass valkyries early and she has no counter. Then just go to heroic at a decent time and get huskarls which are quite good vs atlanteans.
11. Kronos: Mass ulfarks early but don't make a forward base like you usually would with mass ulfs. Keep your ulfs back to combat an early rush. Upgrade your pierce armor.
12. Oranos: Get Thundering hooves valks and rc to actually be able to catch his turmas. Then go heroic and use huskarls.
Thor on water: Just do a regular two dock build. Eliminate any idle tc time that is likely on water maps by using dwarves. You put down the dwarven mine and are able to pump out vills from the tc (they cost gold not food) while doing the same at the dock. This means almost no idle time which is invaluable on water. You have to beat them before heroic because you don't get any water MU's in heroic. Anways you could use Flaming weapons on water to win in heroic if you got really desparate. If you've lost the water on medit and you're in mythic take it back with jormund elvers. Another thing to note is that Thor can get burning pitch right away on a water map. Get it and you'll have a major advantage.
Heres a good build order on water
- first two dwarves on dwarven mine near tc
- next 4 gatherers to wood + an ox cart
- 2 dwarves to food
- 1 dwarf to gold
- 2 dwarves to food
- 1 gatherer to wood
- 2 dwarves to food (transfer them to wood once you have 7-8 fishing ships)
- 1 dwarf to gold or wood (gold if you are gonna build up a force on land early and wood if you arent)
With this build order there is no idle tc or dock time, you advance a bit before 5 minutes and you are able to pump out longboats nonstop from 1 dock easily if you are gonna make a land attack and two docks if you are going solely water for the moment. I like to make one dock, raid with rc use forest fire which cripples their wood supply then make a second dock and secure the water.
Random thor notes:
1. Thor has the best heroic minor gods. Their gp's are amazing and can win you the game
2. Thor has diversity on his side. No one knows what a Thor player will do unlike a Loki player. Against a Loki player everyone knows they will rush, and are taking precautions for it. Against Thor no one knows.
3. His uber units are better than anyone elses except that Odin's jarls are better than his but only slightly.
4. Pigsticker kills set animal rushes.
5. Ulfs are great when you're faced with a rush. They are made in 9 seconds so they are your only hope of outmassing an early advancing rusher.
6. Do a mixed dwarf and gatherer build unless in certain situations. One of these is if you're against a rushing civ like loki and you want to advance early. In this situation the all dwarf build probably works better. The other one is if there is no good food in your LOS. Putting your first 4-5 vills on gold allows you to scout and find the hunting before you put vills on bad food like chickens. This is especially good on ghost lake and savannah.
Well that's it. I wrote this over a long period of time so i hope you guys like it. I also hope more people start using thor because of this.
I think Kronos is just fine maybe toned down a bit but the Krush isn't that hard especially for greeks. As norse you have to make RC. The krush is crippled then. Kronos is much better at a little slower rush. Then its the same as any other gods Krush.
The main reason why Atties econ is so good in early game and overall better is because it is partially stream lined. They cost 125 food and 25 wood. So make 5 citizens and you saved 125 food. That a whole lot of time saved!!!
And it also has its cons too. 1 citizen doesn't equal gather rates of 3 greek or norse villies. Also raiding is alot more effective vs atties since disrupting 1 is like disrupting 2-3. Another thing 1 citizen builds same rate as greeks. so 3 greeks can beat 1 attie. Do combat this you need 3 citizens to beat 3 greeks. This really hurts your econ early game.
Valor is fine as it is too because Attie heros are very expensive. Not to mention there the only civ to cost favor. This can be very angering when you need 1 hero but you have to wait for the 1 more favor. Citizens are I dont know much about Thor so I cant really say much but I do know hes one of the most used Gods, very versitle (has a defence strat to opponets) and has a economic bonus (His Dwarves). If the God is used quite alot with the top players then he must be strong-stronger than otherrgods.
Yes atties should b nerfed as well as eles. Take away sum hack armor and hp so their counters can properly "counter" it Without going proper god paths a bunch of gods cannot effectively counter eles. Rocs + eles + mercanries + ranged myth + ranged siege = total ownage in many games. I can not rember how many FFA games at least where an isis or ra player jus spams eles with rocs and whip out 4 people in lik 30 minutes. IMO rocs should also only hold 10 instead of 15.
IMO its both the archiac + classical age GP dat make atties OP. If they decon. ur temple while advancing to classical, ur at already - 1 myth unit. They decon ur dock early, ur food eco suffers severely. I think decon should b limited to 1 use and only affect towers and fortresses. Valor should b limited to 1 or 2 uses and not affect citizens. Atty heroes should have a slightly damage multiplier vs myth units and a negative damage multiplier vs regular human soilders. IMO turma should b nerfed to lik 3 attack and no free medium ups. Less hp and slightly less speed would also help. Citizen gathering rates should also b nerfed so that 3:30 5 villy advance isnt possible anymore.
[This message has been edited by IceCreamDude (edited 12-13-2005 @ 10:08 PM).]
Quoted from Pug:
Thor like the other preferred gods has a god path that rarely changes. Making your choices simple, making Thor easier to play than the other Norse Gods.
But Forseti is a good choice against Loki and in a few other cases. Freyja is the best choice in most cases. Skadi and Bragi are both so good that it is a matter of taste which of them you choose. Most people go always Bragi and many of those do fine. I only go Bragi against Eggy (due to phants) and against Poseidon and go Skadi in all other cases and do fine, too (frosting the enemy Flaming Weapons in many cases...).
So I do not see how Thor would have single-sided minor god choices, or would be easier to play than the other Norse gods. To the contrary, automatic healing and free scouts make Odin quite easy to conduct Quoted from sleemie: So, for those of you very good with thor do you agree with all that's said in this guide? if not, what do you differ with? Let us go into the details: Quote: Hamarrtroll Trolls: +50% HP, +2 range, +20% attack Quote: Mithril Breastplate: Ulfsarks have -10% hack damage vulnerability Quote: Aurora Borealis: Valkyrie +50% hack damage, +20% crush damage, +33% healing rate Quote: Myth unit: Valkyrie Very fast cavalry MU that can heal units. I usually make Quote: God Power: Forest Fire But FF is also powerful when not used, even if you end up not using it all through the game: As long as you have not used FF, the enemy can never dare to build any buildings near a forest! Normally, forests are great as natural barriers that protect adjacent fortresses and the like. While you have FF your opponent will often run into problems with free space for another barracks or fortress, e.g. on Alfheim or Anatolia. It is always something he has to take care of, and you need not even do anything to enjoy it! Quote: Call of Valhalla: Ulfsarks +20% HP Quote: Swine Array: Ulfsark have damage x2 vs Cavalry Quote: Thurisaz Rune: All myth units move 12% faster Quote: God Power: Flaming Weapons Quote: Technologies: Huntress Axe: Throwing Axeman have 20% more attack Quote: THE CHOICE: Go skadi against possy and zeus if they went hermes and go skadi on low food maps like oasis. Otherwise go bragi. Bragi against Zeus when he went Athena, emphasizing hops? And Bragi against Atlantean that have the best infantry in the game Quote: Sons of Sleipnir: Raiding Cavalry have their bonus damage increased to x3.25 vs Archers and x 3.75 vs Throwing Axemen. Quote: Dwarven Auger: Portable Rams train 50% faster, have +20% attack and speed The major downside of the Dwarven Auger upgrade is its high favor cost, so I suggest researching at least the titan gate first. Quote: Arctic Gale: Dragon Boats +20% speed, -30% hack vulnerability Quote: God Power: Ragnarok Quote: THE CHOICE: I would go Tyr if you don't think the game will last to the titan age or if you want to win back the water. As mentioned above, I would never ever go Tyr, even if that may only be my opinion. Tyr is not bad, but both Baldr and Hel are better. Quote: Thor strategies: 1. Ulfsark flood Quote: Its also useful to use the ulfsark flood without a forward base to defend against rushers like Loki. Quote: 2. Classical fighting Quote: 4. Balanced Thor Build Quote: Thor on water: Just do a regular two dock build. I have not bothered to comment all of the suggested strategies, but they are of comparable quality. I think it is apparent what I think about this guide. Quoted from a_game_a_win: I have deconstructed a temple many a times and just to what I expected they started building another one somewhere else. Quoted from a_game_a_win: As norse you have to make RC. The krush is crippled then. Quoted from a_game_a_win: Also raiding is alot more effective vs atties since disrupting 1 is like disrupting 2-3. Quoted from a_game_a_win: Valor is fine as it is too because Attie heros are very expensive. Quoted from a_game_a_win: Not to mention there the only civ to cost favor. Quoted from IceCreamDude: Yes atties should b nerfed as well as eles. Take away sum hack armor and hp so their counters can properly "counter" it Quoted from IceCreamDude: IMO rocs should also only hold 10 instead of 15. Quoted from IceCreamDude: Citizen gathering rates should also b nerfed so that 3:30 5 villy advance isnt possible anymore. Other than that, I think all of your nerf suggestions together are too much, IceCreamDude. Ra and Set are examples of civs that were overnerfed by a patch. A slower classical time and a weakened Prometheus should do nicely to balance Attie into the game. It would also make the game more colorful, as there would be a real alternative to Prometheus if he was not so clearly the better choice.
I disagree with most of this guide, leading me to the conclusion that it is quite a crappy guide.
Decent tech if you are massing trolls against a fellow norse. Only get it once you have 4 or 5 trolls though, as it's better to get another troll before that.
Trolls are cheap and strong, so if you choose Forseti, it usually pays to aq them in the temple, leading to a nice number of trolls. While it is true that numbers >
Very good tech when against a fellow norse player. Add this to your crazy armory hack armor upgrading and you have an unstoppable unit.
Complete nonsense. Ulfs are of little use against Norse opponents except for the early rush (in which you do not have this upgrade researched yet). During those early rushs, I would rather try to get another troll with the favor instead of getting this upgrade. In fact, in all tests I have run so far (ulfs against elephants and stuff), Mithril Breastplate never seemed to make a real difference. Ulfs lose vs phants, Mithril ulfs lose vs phants, Mithril ulfs with call of valhalla lose vs phants. But ulfs with Swine array win against phants without requiring mithril breastplate. The upgrade my be nice to give you a small added advantage, but talking about "an unstoppable unit" because of mithril is shucks.
A good tech if you have 3 or more valks. Since you dont have healing spring you really want to have some good healing for your raids. So i like that the part of it the best. The other ones make a difference but i usually dont have enough valks for extra attack to pay for the tech.
This tech is far better than this description indicates. Remember that is increases valk damage by 50%! This means your valk will deal 50% more damage before it dies, as if you had another half valk. As the consequence, the upgrade already pays off when you have two valks total (one of which you get for free in TT). An upgraded valk is at least as good as a typical heroic age myth unit (especially if you factor in speed and healing capability). The upgrade is not expensive either, especially if you are Thor and have a good classical gold income. I recommend always getting this tech asap
2-3 of these in a game.
I am not sure, but I guess I make like ten times that amount in the course of a longer game (of course I do not own all of them simultaneously). Valks cost only food, which is great in heroic age when gold becomes scarce and food easily available. With Aurora Borealis and Thundering Hooves the valk is at least as good as other heroic age myth units. The valk is pretty much the only myth unit
I never used to like this GP until the last game i played. Basically find his wood operations, cast forest fire and trap his vils in with your rc.
Only one of the possible uses. You can also take down buildings with this intentionally
Very good tech. Used to get uber ulfsarks. If you use the Thor armory correctly you can make your ulfs uncounterable and this just reinforces it since it adds somewhere between 16 and 20 hp. great tech
Complete trash. No matter how well you upgrade ulfs, they will always stink to their counters, including both archer-type inf counters (tox, chariots) and infantry-type inf counters (hypas, axemen, TA). Call of Valhalla is still a good tech though.
I personally think this is one of the best techs in the game. It really makes ulfs a hard counter to cavalry. But they still stand up to other units, especially if you use your armory right and upgrade the right armor.
An ulf with two hack armor upgrades will still lose to a standard hoplite. So much to "stand up to other units". Ulfs are among the weakest mainline units in the game. Only spearmen are weaker.
I don't research this tech. I guess its good if you have a load of valks and want them to be even faster. I still dont recomend getting this tech though.
I agree that it is a low priority tech, but it is still nice to have, and I recommend getting it when you can easily afford it (e.g. when you hit 100 favor and are at pop limit). Battle Boars with this tech are even better suitable for raiding. Even your titan becomes faster!
Best GP in the game.
Can you say "Ragnarok"? Can you say "Ancestors"? Can you say "Earthquake"? FW is good, no doubt. But the author of this guide was a little quick with the "best" attribute in his explanations.
Basically adds 1 attack to your TA. If you decided to upgrade your TA at the Thor armory (useful vs any civ) then this is a great tech.
Not upgrading your TA at the Thor armory would probably not be that intelligent as that would mean you do not upgrade your other units, too. And that +1 attack for the TA is multiplied with their bonus vs infantry when you attack infantry. A good tech, especially against Norses that believe they could go Bragi vs Thor and rule with "uncounterable" ulfens...
Skadi against a Poseidon that goes Hermes
Great tech. Get it if you massed rc or even if you didnt because he's not gonna make archers if he sees you've massed rc.
According to my experience, most players will still mass archers. My impression is that even in the 1700+ range, most players are not aware of the existence of Sons of Sleipnir and its effects.
Very useful vs turtlers. You can just churn out rams like there's no tomorrow. Its very hard to stop a few fully upgraded rams with this tech. Don't get it if your opponent isn't a turtle though.
This tech is always very useful, even against non-turtlers. The fast ram training speed is good, but not the main reason. The main reason is the improved ram speed. Your rams appear out of nowhere and reach their target before the enemy has had much time to intercept them. You also get some added damage for them
If there is still fighting on water use this to end the fighting. Ive never had a water game go this late so i don't know how good it is.
...allowing conclusions how much game experience the author of this guide actually has. True is that there is usually not much fighting on water in mythic age, but that does not mean that a water game does not last that long. In mythic, siege vessels with Naval Oxybeles are very helpful taking down enemy buildings
Game ender right here! Great in the x-pack for taking out titans super quick. When used with FW you can win any game. This is basically an unstoppable combo.
As long as it lasts. Trouble is, Laming weapons end way sooner than you can finish off a well-positioned opponent that has prepared for your Ragnarok with defensive structures and infantry counters. Ragnarok is still great, I love it, but once again the author is too quick with his superlatives.
...because if you do not yet have the money to hit the titan age you will certainly be able to pay the extortional prices for the Tyr myth upgrades. And of course, Baldr's arctic gale will not be helpful in winning back the water...
Go to classical extremely early with a lot of vills/dwarves on food. Then spam ulfsarks. You must make dwarves while you are spamming if you hope to have enough food. Ulfsarks take only 9 seconds to build so with 3 longhouses building them you can have 15 ulfs by 6:15 pretty easily.
Due to the fast ulfsark training time, you can get more units out earlier if you put less vills on wood and more on food and make ulfs with only 2 barracks and hersirs with the temple.
Only that the Loki hersirs will survive way better against ulfs than against TA, so they will bring up tons of myth units that your ulfs will die horribly to.
Get to classical around the 5 minute mark.
Which is too late against Atlantean and too early against Isis and Ra, but otherwise fine. Once again, a strategy that is suggested as universal against all opponents is a weak strategy.
Basically this involves a reasonably fast classical and making 10-15 RC and 10-15 TA.
Will lose horribly to any Atlantean.
Will lose horribly to a Thor that does a one-dock fast classical build.
But they started their classical advance before you deconstructed their temple and did not complete their second temple in time, so they do not get their free myth unit. If they did not get back their resources, you would have a GP with the power of classical age GPs like undermine. For an archaic GP, getting their resources back is just fine.
You mean right after completing your temple, when you have just begun to advance to classical and the first enemy troops are already pouring into your base? If you can get those RC you may stand a chance
In return, it is next to impossible to kill a citizen unless you have a real phat raiding force in the area and he has neglected to get a manor or tower to retreat to. Overall this detail makes Atl harder to raid than any other race.
for good reason, a reason that is defeated by valor, causing Atl to be op.
And the civ with the least effort to obtain favor. Greek has to invest vills, Eggy has to invest money. Norse have to fight for it, accepting losses. Atl just needs what all civs need anyway: TCs. And they already have what it takes to generate some favor from the very beginning.
Eles have crappy hack armor; that is not the problem. They just have too many hp.
Rocs are another fat piece of bullsh*t. They should at least have very crappy hp so that they are easy to take down and must be used with extraordinary care.
My proposal would be to give citizens a lower base gathering rate but higher benefit from econ upgrades (in return to the fact that they do not benefit from the higher carrying capacity of econ upgrades). Atl would then have more normal classical times, but grow economically stronger later, so that they remain competitive in the late ages.
Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
As far as the guide...I figured out that it has some issues when I tried to use the build order he mentioned last night. He may have made a mistake in typing it or something because it just flat out doesn't work. He says put the first two dwarfs on the mine, then five gatherers on food and then 2 gatherers and an ox cart to wood. problem is the first five gathers uses up all your food and there's NO way by the time you're supposed to create the two gatherers and ox cart for wood you're going to have another 150 food that's needed for that. Maybe he meant to say instead of five gatherers to food some of them should have been dwarves. I just kind of winged it and tried to balance it out to the point where the tc was never idle, I had only dwarves on gold and only gatherers on wood, and a mix of both on food. I need to kind of pin down an exact order so I can just go right to it during a game for both hunting and fishing maps.
I like the idea of the guide, spelling out which strategy and which god to use against each opponent, but as you said, it doesn't necessarily give you the best information.
I've gotten better and I'm ranked right around 1580 right now and I think I can easily get to 1600, but I guess my confusion comes in with knowing which strategy to use against the different gods and if I can use the same military strategy on fishing maps as hunting maps since you're build order and advance times I'm assuming might be a little different.
So, these are the questions I have as far as facing the different gods....
Which troops to use
Which gods to choose (I now know bragi against eggy)
When to go fast heroic
When to rush
When to forward build and when not to (I guess Kronos is one not to do it against, what about loki and oranos?)
When to Fast Heroic or even fast mythic
Which armory upgrades to get (I know pierce against eggy and oranos and whenever raiding around towers)
If I do fast Heroic, or anytime I reach heroic for that matter, when do I go with more huskarls or more jarls and when to have an even mix. Also, I've gotten in the habit of once I get to heroic, I turn off my barrack AQ completely and only AQ my fort units...is that a bad idea? I mean if i've got the resources should I go all fort units since they're much stronger, or should I still throw in some RC or axmen or hersir. Oh, I do throw in a few valkaries just for their healing. I really don't do too well with mixing in the other myth units, either. hardly ever get any frosties, and once in a while if I think about it I get the fire giants. I know they're supposed to be one of the best units in the game with their ability to take down building and their durability.
I guess those are all my questions from now. I think right now in my rating range I can compete simply by a good build order, advancing early, aq villagers and get econ rolling, massing RC and raiding consistantly, but going against the better players I've gotta have more strategy and know which gods and strategies and troops to use against each god.
Quoted from IceCreamDude:
Yes atties should b nerfed as well as eles. Take away sum hack armor and hp so their counters can properly "counter" it
Uhhh...what are you talking about? Greek units are stronger than Attie units and your not complaining about them. Every unit who counters a attie unit can kill (provided equal upgrades)
Valor is fine as it is too because Attie heros are very expensive. Quoted from DeathAndPain: for good reason, a reason that is defeated by valor, causing Atl to be op. So Atties are very vunarable to Myth units?? Now that would be underpowered. Atties just dont have heros in classical-and they cant really afford to make a whole lot. Look at good gaia players, they guard those heros like they were really their children, Garrisoning them, healing, retreating. Attie heros cost almost the same as the ARCHAIC age hero and yet I horribly worse. For this reason Valor is a very needed GP. Quoted from DeathAndPain: And the civ with the least effort to obtain favor. Greek has to invest vills, Eggy has to invest money. Norse have to fight for it, accepting losses. Atl just needs what all civs need anyway: TCs. And they already have what it takes to generate some favor from the very beginning. Anyways this is going to be a perpetual argument so I'll throw this out to. All Eggies are OP. [This message has been edited by a_game_a_win (edited 12-14-2005 @ 06:36 PM).]
Quoted from a_game_a_win :
Uhhh...what are you talking about? Greek units are stronger than Attie units and your not complaining about them.
Hoplites are only minutely better, although (not 100% sure of this next bit) Hoplites don't get a bonus vs Cav like murmillo.
Also, in vanilla, Greeks were the ones who had the most expensive units, but the best. With AOM TT, this has been thrown out the window, as now the Atlanteans have the best counter units, and they get them in the classical age. Lets not forget how they train faster as well.
I mean, I would pick Turma> Explain to me how Prodomos don't beat Elephants, but Katapeltes do? Obvious which one is the better counter, and don't forget the Katapeltes also have a bonus verse seige... This one is intersting, Hypaspist vs Cherioballista. Well, there you are. I know which units I would prefer. [This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 12-14-2005 @ 08:36 PM).]
Both, IMO are very good counters. But we can't forget that Cherio ALSO get a bonus vs Ships, while hyps don't. And also since Cherio is seige, they get great pierce armour. So they hold their own vs archers, and counter infantry. (unlike Hyps, who only counter infantry). Also, Cherioballista behind Murmillo will O-W-N Throwing axeman. Of course, you gotta make sure you stop the rc attacking the Cherio. But IMO, both are at equal standards. They Hypaspist hold their own vs Cav as they have such high Hack armour. (Fu Hyps have 9 attack, That is devistating! So IMO I would favour the Hyps slightly more, but I think both are equal.)
Also, about the Valour, it's oped. To get 3 heroes (2 military units and 1 vill) On each cast is sooooooooo Overpowerd. Yes the Atlanteans need it, but perhaps it needs a slower recharge time. Also, I agree with D&P about the Atlantean classical god choices needing to be more colourful. The other gods suck so much it isn't funny. Prometheus is ALOT better than the other two put together. I would go Prometheus >
Quoted from sleemie:
I know the computer is different than a person, but if one strategy beats the computer very easily and they never have a chance and the other one you've gotta fight and scratch to win, I'm sure the one where you beat it easily will be better against real people also.
The truth is that you can learn But tactics or styles cannot be trained against the CPU. The CPU has strengths that no non-cheating human has (such as omniscience), but lacks some basic abilities of a human player, intelligence being the most important. Again, there is no point in trying to relativize the statement. Playing against the CPU will not cause you to learn the game. It will cause you to mis-learn it, i.e. to learn strategical facts that are plainly wrong against human opponents. And I believe you will never break through the 1600 barrier if you do not give up "training" against CPU opponents and play rated 1v1 games instead, even if these may be more disappointing at times. Quoted from sleemie: He may have made a mistake in typing it or something because it just flat out doesn't work. He says put the first two dwarfs on the mine, then five gatherers on food and then 2 gatherers and an ox cart to wood. problem is the first five gathers uses up all your food and there's NO way by the time you're supposed to create the two gatherers and ox cart for wood you're going to have another 150 food that's needed for that. On maps without proper hunting, or on water maps, this BO is not applicable or at least unadvisable. Note that some players follow the stance to always finish off their home berries and chicken before going for anything else. This is a mistake. Both of these food sources gather so slowly that they should only be used if you cannot help it. This basically means that there is no fish or huntable food in the vicinity of your TC, or you have not found it yet. As the consequence, it must be a priority of your ulf to start with a circle around your base, enlightening the black areas right outside your tower vision to find nearby huntables so that you can give up the slow food sources. It is completely acceptable not to finish these sources all through the game. Goats supply food faster, too, and once they are done, you should be able to farm, which is not fast, but upgradeable, and it allows you to never care about the vills tasked with it again. Quoted from sleemie: So, these are the questions I have as far as facing the different gods.... You can come back here and ask when you have specific questions, like you generally doing fine but always getting your ass kicked by one particular opposing god. Specific questions can be answered here, the question how to generally play a god is best answered by the general guides. Quoted from sleemie: Also, I've gotten in the habit of once I get to heroic, I turn off my barrack AQ completely and only AQ my fort units...is that a bad idea? I mean if i've got the resources should I go all fort units since they're much stronger Hill forts just add to your unit choices, and there are situations in which hill fort units do much better. On the other hand, there are situations in which longhouse units are definitely the better choice. Always make the units that are best against what your opponent has. Look at his unit choices and respond to those. But make sure always to have a bunch of RC for raiding purposes (and make use of them!) For instance, if your Zeus opponent goes mass hoplites, then both jarls and huskarls will fail you. Unless you add some TA in the second row, that is. Jarls are an awesome meat shield for TA. But that is just an example. You can also set both your hill forts and longhouses on aq in order to replace your losses faster. Of course that means you need to react if your jarls never ever pop out because the 2-pop-units always spawn first. Quoted from sleemie: I really don't do too well with mixing in the other myth units, either. hardly ever get any frosties, and once in a while if I think about it I get the fire giants. I know they're supposed to be one of the best units in the game with their ability to take down building and their durability. Quoted from a_game_a_win: So Atties are very vunarable to Myth units?? Now that would be underpowered. Quoted from a_game_a_win: Atties just dont have heros in classical-and they cant really afford to make a whole lot. Quoted from a_game_a_win: All Eggies are OP. Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob: Hoplites don't get a bonus vs Cav like murmillo. Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob: Explain to me how Prodomos don't beat Elephants, but Katapeltes do? Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob: This one is intersting, Hypaspist vs Cherioballista. Keep in mind that cheiros are expensive, move slowly, train slowly, cost a lot of pop for their firepower and have horrible accuracy. Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob: But we can't forget that Cherio ALSO get a bonus vs Ships, while hyps don't. Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob: And also since Cherio is seige, they get great pierce armour. So they hold their own vs archers, and counter infantry. Quoted from TTK_GeneralNoob: Also, about the Valour, it's oped. To get 3 heroes (2 military units and 1 vill) On each cast is sooooooooo Overpowerd. Yes the Atlanteans need it
I am afraid his BO does work
You are asking about everything, about how to play Thor in general. Such questions make no sense here, as a proper response would be a complete guide to Thor. There are such guides in the guide section; I recommend reading them first.
It is a bad idea, yes. And no, hill fort units are not much stronger than longhouse units. For the same pop and cost, jarls approximately tie (are equally strong) against RC for instance.
It is hard to make a better advice than the obvious one to change this. It is not that hard to aq a good myth unit in your temple after all. MU are not harder to use than your other units. As usual, strive to group units of similar speed together. For example, group your frosties with your TA and your valks with your RC (especially once you have Thundering Hooves so that their speed is almost equal).
No, it is not. Why should Attie not have a weak side for a change? Along with all their strong sides, that is. MU are quite effective vs Attie, and that is good as it is.
Thank god they cannot. Then again, with valor they can. And that is the problem.
Due to op elephants. I hardly see other problems with Eggy. The roc drop perhaps.
Neither of these gets a bonus vs cav...
Both do.
Both, IMO are very good counters.
IMHO, cheiros are quite poor counters. They are better than nothing and do their job when properly used, but they are way worse than hypaspists or axemen. Even ulfsarks can defeat cheiros if the latter have no proper meat shield. In early classical, taking out a few cheiros with hersirs is a usual and working tactics. Pretty pathetic for an infantry counter unit.
They may have that bonus, but I cannot remember a single game in which one of my ships had been destroyed by a cheiro, so this bonus is pretty much irrelevant. Cheiros lack the range of a real ballista or catapult.
...and die horribly against siege counters, such as RC, katapeltes, or prodromos. Of course you should always use the right counter units. There is no point in using archer counters like huskarls against cheiros when cheiros are no archers. But archers are no siege, so using siege counters would be inefficient against archers (except for units like Sleipnir RC that counter both).
No they do not. They use it because they have it, and they enjoy it, but it makes them op, so they do not need it to be competitive.
Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Quoted from DeathAndPain:
Even ulfsarks can defeat cheiros if the latter have no proper meat shield.
I think that was a little unfair to compare them like that, considering no player masses Cherio. But I see your point. However, I guess looking at the stats again, Hyps > Also, we can't forget that Cherio comes an age before Hyps, and while you think they are horrible, I think they are decent units when mixed in with turma or archus. And of course you want a meatshield. Quoted from DeathAndPain : Both do. (You were refering to the Prodomos Kata vs elephants btw.) Ok, I just did a little test of my own in the Editor. No upgrades, and I know this is not an efficient test, but I think that it would be a suitable test for predicting the overall effectiveness. Here we go: 2 Katapeltes vs 1 Elephant. Katapeltes wins, just. 2 Prod vs 1 Elephant Elephants win, with 20 hp-ish left. So both did ok didn't they? But Prodmos cost 3 pop slots each. Katapeltes cost 2. I think we know which one is better. Anyway, the Kata won, the Eles didt even when the Prodomos had more population. [This message has been edited by TTK_GeneralNoob (edited 12-15-2005 @ 03:36 AM).]
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