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CoM_NiGhtMarE
Mortal
posted 04 July 2007 08:14 AM EDT (US)         
Hi DAP.
I know your a very dedicated Thor player, and since I'm starting with playing him (I'm not starting with Norse, so I know 'the basics') I want to ask you, if you have any recorded games uploaded?
Can you maybe tell me where, and under what nickname?

Thank you

Expect the unexpectable...
Ingame name = DoO_VonDutch / VonDutchXV
AuthorReplies:
CoM_NiGhtMarE
Mortal
posted 06 July 2007 10:44 AM EDT (US)     31 / 67       
DAP maybe if you want you can review my game I just played? Perhaps you made some different choices, or you just have comment. (by the way: I should not have chosen Bragi, I guess frost would have been better then FW, cuz I had to use FW in an defensive way).

http://aom.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=6689

Expect the unexpectable...
Ingame name = DoO_VonDutch / VonDutchXV
Squeoo
Mortal
posted 06 July 2007 11:34 AM EDT (US)     32 / 67       
haha i adapted to DaP's 1 wall segment next to TC ultimate scout trick...

and after getting some help from DaP's techniques, i won 3 games in a row with thor...


yay!

game 1 - thor vs. possy,

i sit back defensively beginning game, with a nice scouting job when i hit heroic i check all gold mines, to find his people. after finding them i hit them all with my RC and then build Hill Forts next to his 2 closest gold mines.. Take the central TC (that seperates us both) and start pumping my bragi ulfs and some huskarls.

I set the huskarls to destroy his Castles as my ulfs rip his PRODROMOS!!! (he may have been wanting to save his gold miners, 11) to pieces and then he comes at me with massed archers, and i decide to switch off, i have my ulfs finish off the second castle while the husks rip the archers up...

haha.


my second fight.

thor vs. loki on ghost lake (i hate this map due to its low/out of the way hunting) so i go heavy on lumber/gold (as soon as i get up an age i leave only 3 on food, enough to research med. infantry and keep gatherers on autoque) and i mass TA from 4 barracks (max housing i have like 36 TA) he had gone through forsetti for max hersir power i guess? he comes at me (obvious lack of scouting on his own base) with hersirs and his troll, my people rip him up no trouble, i have their ranged hack!!! they take down the towers (Which he upgrades, 11) down in almost no time, and then since im heavy on wood and gold, i research the first 2 shielding ups (during this time of taking down towers) and he got together about 6 RC and 2 trolls, i have all units attack the same RC and continue this until all them are gone, then do the same to the trolls, and i lose a total of !!! 3 units to this wonderful plan of his, then i take the TC NP, while having the 6 that don't fit into my hotkey #1 (only 30 max =[) chase his ox carts and i win.

yay!

game 3 is one of the first times i've won water, i think it was anatolia?? its the orange one, lol. it was against an oranos, and i won the water and won the game, due to SOMEHOW BY A MIRACLE!!! having better micro (my micro used to suck).
CoM_NiGhtMarE
Mortal
posted 06 July 2007 12:08 PM EDT (US)     33 / 67       
Squeoo whats your ingame nickname? Mine is DoO_VonDutch. Add me to friends please, maybe we can play sometime

Expect the unexpectable...
Ingame name = DoO_VonDutch / VonDutchXV
Squeoo
Mortal
posted 06 July 2007 01:18 PM EDT (US)     34 / 67       
sounds good, and i tend to change accounts often so i'll find you.

my oldest account though, the one i play on most ( i use it as a practice account) is the same thing.. squeoo.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 09 July 2007 08:38 AM EDT (US)     35 / 67       
-You had a game on Marsh versus. Oranos. You did a nice 4.30 advance, and started pumping ulfs out of your longhouses. Why didn't you go for TA + RC?
For two reasons:

  • Atlantean are known for their early advance times, so I need an army quickly. Both TA and RC train waaaay slower than ulfsarks. In early classical, I do not have many longhouses yet, so I need to use them as well as possible.

  • Infantry is the unit type that classical Atlantean is weakest against.

    In vanilla AoM, all races had very good inf counters in classical age, but none of them had very good cav counters before heroic age. As the consequence, it became a usual habit to always go for RC against all races. The greatest threat to RC was infantry, so TA were typically added.

    However, I believe that originally not cavalry, but mainline infantry was supposed to be the backbone of classical armies. Remember that the online help describes the ulfsark as such. However, against Greek ulfsarks are used as an auxiliary unit at best, and against Eggy they are only used in heroic because they are the only unit that can do anything vs elephants (with the help of Bragi). I think this was why ES decided to design their new expansion race so that it would have a very strong cav counter, but in return lack a strong inf counter in classical age.

    Now Atl do have the cheiroballista, but it is worse than its reputation, IMHO. Cheiros train very slowly, so an Atl going for cheiros right away would give up the advantage from his natural early classical age. Cheiros are also expensive and move slowly. A few cheiros without meat shield would even lose to infantry, so the Attie is forced to start out with other units first.

    This means that I can be sure that my early ulfs will not be countered. The Attie can make:

  • murmillos. These are also mainline infantry. They win against ulfsarks, but not by a large margin, and they also train slower.

  • katapeltes. These hard cav counters will be raped by ulfsarks.

  • turmas. These are dangerous as they can use their range against ulfsarks, but have ultra-low hack armor, and in a patch ulfs received a 1.5x bonus against turmas, so the Attie player must be very careful: If the ulfs manage to reach the turmas, the latter die like flies.

  • cheiros. Discussed above.

    Note that I combined my ulf spam with a forward build. This is risky to a certain extent because Atl classical troops are the most powerful in the game, so my fb is in danger of being overrun. But I compensate with the fast ulf training time and a ferocious attack. There is also a second thought behind this: If I do not put him under pressure as soon as early classical, then he will be able to send out a turma squad and molest my villagers. It is virtually impossible to keep all vills safe from turma raids, especially your hunters - which are still your core food income in classical on a hunting map. The only way to prevent these deadly turma raids is to make sure that he needs every man at home to defend his butt. And that is what the ulf rush ensures.

    Later in the game I do switch mainly to the more specialized RC and TA. But I cannot do that before I have enough production facilities to produce these slowly-training units. RC lose to murmillos and are horribly raped by katapeltes. This means that in major battles I cannot use RC until I also have a solid amount of TA to take care of these threats. Also note that stats-wise, murmillos are virtually identical to hoplites, but TA get a special 2.75x bonus against hoplites, while they only do their regular 2.25x against murmillos.

    Later in the game he can also make cheiros when he has the necessary production buildings and a solid meat shield. By then I do have the RC squad to flank him and use their anti-siege-bonus to kill the cheiros. But early on me wants meh ulfenz.

    Note that ulfsarks also remain a good unit against Attie later in the game, at least until he spams arcusses in the later ages. But when you set up your aq plan, remember that ulf train virtually twice as fast as RC and TA, so one longhouse training ulfs has the output of 2 longhouses training RC or TA.
    -What is it with the herdables?
    Many people just carelessly group all their herdables to a "cloud" on one side of their TC. I consider that inefficient when it comes to gathering from them. You want to have multiple vills gathering from a goat without bumping because all the gathering "surface" of the goat is either covered by fellow vills or by adjacent goats that are still waiting for their death. That is why I disperse my goats around my TC, typically with 3 goats per side and with just enough space between goat and TC so that a vills fits in-between and can deliver at zero walking time. This way a goat can be cleared, and then all participating vills automatically move on to the next goat, which is right besides but in sufficient distance so that gathering from the first goat was not hampered. This way they will slowly walk a circle around my TC, finishing all goats in an efficient manner. I will also not end up having 4 dead goats on four sides of the cloud with 1 vill per goat gathering.
    DAP maybe if you want you can review my game
    Can't do that right now, but I will.
    haha i adapted to DaP's 1 wall segment next to TC ultimate scout trick...
    Just make sure to delete one copy of the double-segment that is placed that way before your ulf builds it. This means half the gold and construction time spent, and when an enemy attacks the stacked connectors, both would take damage, so you do not win anything if you finish them both.

    Another hint related to this: You can use wall connectors to protect towers and hill forts. They do this much more efficiently than houses. You could also make a wall in front of your hill fort, but a wall connector has the same amount of hp as a long wall, but costs only one third and builds way faster. This means that if you create a row of wall connectors, you get much more defensive hp for your money. And it does not even take longer to build, because wall connectors build that much faster. Wall connectors also offer the enemy far less surface to attack with multiple units. A hill fort protected by a solid wall of wall connectors is pretty much invincible to attacks that are based on hack damage. It requires siege to take it down.

    This could also be done to TCs and gold mines, but that is commonly regarded as abuse. Once I tried walling up a free settlement on the enemy side of the map completely. It worked nicely , but it sure was not fair, so I stopped doing it after that test. TC and mine wall connectors are only tolerated for scouting. Note that there is no written rule concerning that, but this is how the majority of players treats this matter.

    However, there is nothing wrong with spamming wall connectors at legitimate places around your hill fort.

    The only downside is a major one: It requires a lot of mouse clicking time, which is the most valuable resource in the game. Do not do it if you are not sure that you can afford to focus on this for so long.
    thor vs. loki on ghost lake (i hate this map due to its low/out of the way hunting)
    Ghost Lake is good hunt. You always have multiple boars or auroxens near your home base. Sometimes they are not within initial vision, but they are there, so scout a circle with your ulf to find them. You can do that before making your first house to find them faster (gather berries in the meantime), but make sure you do not forget the house then. By the time your hunters are done with the boars/oxens, your ulf should have scouted at least one nice herd of elks to move on to.

    Darkness is a state of mind
    Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
    Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
  • DeathAndPain
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 11:24 AM EDT (US)     36 / 67       
    Ok, so I watched your replay, CoM_NiGhtMarE.

    First of all, next time please show me a replay that you lose. Replays that you win are not that informative, and always arouse the suspicion that you desire to show off. When you fail to beat an enemy and have no idea how to perform it, then the time has come to ask for help.

    That being said, you still did horrible in your game. Absolutely horrible. No offense intended, but that is the way it is. You need to work on the very basics.

  • You gathered chicken on Mediterranean! I could hardly believe my eyes. Never do that! Not with Thor! You either go out all wood with 4 dwarves on gold in the long run, so that you can aq dwarves when you have run out of food, or you go for a quick classical with only 4 vills on wood, 4 dwarves on gold and the rest on pigs at your TC so that you don't need a cart.

  • Consequently, you gathered wood at your TC without a cart. Don't.

  • Typical Kronos tactics in archaic age is to deconstruct your dock. All fishing boats that you have out by then are a dead investition until you got a new dock. There is no real defense, but you should aim to get two docks up asap so that you still keep a place where you can train more boats and where the ones that you already have can deliver. In the long run you will need more docks anyway so that you can train arrow ships faster. More docks also mean reduced dropoff times for your fishing boats. In this game, simply walking the initial oracle over to your side and immediately d/cing your dock would have delayed your classical advance indefinitely and probably have meant gg. Note that not only some good Kronoses do that: All good Kronoses do that on this map! You need to be prepared for it as well as possible, or you can resign right away.

  • There was no reason to train a second ulf. On this map it is a waste of early resources and classical time unless you are up against Zeus, who threatens to bolt your first one.

  • You had several idle fishing boats for a longer period of time. Download xentelian's package so that you get a sound when a boat is idle.

  • You went full RC. Against Atl this is suicide. Luckily for you your opponent was too silly to react to it. He continued training his mass turma/some murm mixture as if he had no brain. Making a bunch of katapeltes would have rendered your whole army useless, allowing him to overrun your base with ease. Against Atl, always start out making ulfs in classical age. Switch to RC/TA later, and make sure you have enough TA against his infantry.

  • When his fleet attacked yours, your micro was nonexistent. He killed your whole fleet without losing a single ship despite the fact that Atl ships are weaker than Norse ships.

  • You payed zero attention to your resources. Your continuous RC training totally drained you off gold. You left your TC on aq dwarves and did not notice that it was idle because you had no gold for more dwarves. As an example, at 10:05 you had 1509 food but only 16 gold in the bank. You would have needed to aq gatherers, which are more efficient on wood anyway, and perhaps relocate some wood dwarves to gold. Instead you left your TC as it was and your longhouses on train RC and drain gold.

  • 3 longhouses are not enough anyway in the long run. You had more than 800 wood in the bank and should at least have doubled their number so that you can replace your losses faster. Of course that would also have required fixing your gold shortage by setting your TC to make gatherers.

    Darkness is a state of mind
    Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
    Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
  • a_game_a_win
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 11:57 AM EDT (US)     37 / 67       
    and when an enemy attacks the stacked connectors, both would take damage, so you do not win anything if you finish them both.
    Woah, I did not know this.
    You had several idle fishing boats for a longer period of time. Download xentelian's package so that you get a sound when a boat is idle.
    Is that the fog horn noise, cause I deleted it due to it's uber gayness.
    DeathAndPain
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 02:20 PM EDT (US)     38 / 67       
    Is that the fog horn noise, cause I deleted it due to it's uber gayness.
    Yes. You lose important information by deleting this sound. Pressing the period key when you hear it will take you to the idle boat.

    Darkness is a state of mind
    Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
    Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
    Sam_Ham
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 02:54 PM EDT (US)     39 / 67       
    Note that not only some good Kronoses do that: All good Kronoses do that on this map!
    I sure don't. It's much better to decon one of his docks after you've hit classical and are pumping proms/biremes.

    Deconing in archaic is pointless against Eggy, they'll go 2 dock anyway.

    Deconing in archaic is pointless against attie, they can rebuild it straight away with the vill gathering wood by the water, without impacting by more than 1-2 seconds on their up time.

    Against Norse/Greek it is POSSIBLE i suppose, but really the benefits aren't that great. He'll just rebuild it straight away if he isnt already building a second, and at the rate at which fishing ships gather, no more than 1-2 will actually end up being full with no drop-off point.

    If you do it after classical you can:

  • Cut down his ship production significantly

  • Prevent the dock's reconstruction using biremes


    Sometimes you need to scare the lambs,
    tell tales of evil bad wolves.
    Because if there is nothing to fear,
    they might think for themselves.
  • CoM_NiGhtMarE
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 04:44 PM EDT (US)     40 / 67       
    Thanks for this information DAP, I'm now going to look for one I lost

    Expect the unexpectable...
    Ingame name = DoO_VonDutch / VonDutchXV
    CoM_NiGhtMarE
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 05:09 PM EDT (US)     41 / 67       
    One I lost versus Thor on Highland:
    http://aom.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=6702

    Think my biggest mistake was the raggie...

    Expect the unexpectable...
    Ingame name = DoO_VonDutch / VonDutchXV
    Squeoo
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 06:09 PM EDT (US)     42 / 67       
    hey CoM, i don't see you on much... add Squeoo_Thor i just made the account for thor purposes...

    maybe we can get in a game b4 my stuff cuts out. lol.
    a_game_a_win
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 06:30 PM EDT (US)     43 / 67       
    Yes. You lose important information by deleting this sound. Pressing the period key when you hear it will take you to the idle boat.
    I don't care if that happens. That sound starts going off as soon as I'm by the water and drives me nuts. Same with that coinage noise.

    Btw DaP, do you know how to get rid of the macro he gives you at the beginning? (the one where it AQ a villager and sets your scout to group 1)
    MagmaLord
    Mortal
    (id: darkdude)
    posted 09 July 2007 07:11 PM EDT (US)     44 / 67       
    Btw DaP, do you know how to get rid of the macro he gives you at the beginning? (the one where it AQ a villager and sets your scout to group 1)
    lol there's a mod that does that?

    Does anyone actually play anymore? Or just let mods do all the work? :-P

    Squeoo
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 07:14 PM EDT (US)     45 / 67       
    i lost to CoM, but i was eating. i want a rematch!

    lol.

    gg CoM, i won't tell everyone the reason you won (cough walling off gold so i can't use it cough)
    CoM_NiGhtMarE
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 07:34 PM EDT (US)     46 / 67       
    Yeah well, that one wasn't very nice of me, sorry .

    I saw that ulf standing there, and I thought like: Hmm let's give him something to do

    Expect the unexpectable...
    Ingame name = DoO_VonDutch / VonDutchXV
    a_game_a_win
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 07:48 PM EDT (US)     47 / 67       
    lol there's a mod that does that?
    Yea, and tbh it hurts me more than help.
    Squeoo
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 08:12 PM EDT (US)     48 / 67       
    its all good, you would've won anyway.

    i was doing pretty crappy haha.
    COLOSSUS_91
    Banned
    posted 09 July 2007 09:27 PM EDT (US)     49 / 67       
    Btw DaP, do you know how to get rid of the macro he gives you at the beginning? (the one where it AQ a villager and sets your scout to group 1)
    Iirc, one of the files that come with the mod, has the instruction for that macro. All of the files can be opened with notepad, and the macro is quite easy to find. Just delete the instruction and that will be it. If you can give me the link from where to dload the mod I'll be glad to help you any further but I dont have it so... >.<

    [This message has been edited by Colossus_91 (edited 07-09-2007 @ 09:28 PM).]

    a_game_a_win
    Mortal
    posted 09 July 2007 09:28 PM EDT (US)     50 / 67       
    check the topic by goosewacker
    Pdroo
    Banned
    posted 09 July 2007 09:37 PM EDT (US)     51 / 67       
    www.myspace.com/squeooifanybody else on aom has one =]
    http://pdroooooooo.hi5.com

    owned .. my profile = +1

    I sure am addicted to this game.
    I swear this game's addiction levels are OP.... I stopped doing a lot of things to have more time to play.... I'll quit as soon as college starts again.... I swear....
    but if she ever dares to work with my HD, there will be trouble
    Tell her to use husbandry instead XD
    This could also be done to TCs and gold mines, but that is commonly regarded as abuse. Once I tried walling up a free settlement on the enemy side of the map completely. It worked nicely
    Rofl... That was exactly why ES made walls red if they are close enought to a settlement or GM...
    I would nearly stop playing for a nice girlfriend ROFLOL
    -1......... dont ever tell that to a girl
    This means that if you create a row of wall connectors, you get much more defensive hp for your money. And it does not even take longer to build, because wall connectors build that much faster. Wall connectors also offer the enemy far less surface to attack with multiple units. A hill fort protected by a solid wall of wall connectors is pretty much invincible to attacks that are based on hack damage.
    but ur rams would trapped inside.. unless u leave a small gap between wall conectors....

    Or u would probably start spamming rams like the shade bug...
    CoM_NiGhtMarE
    Mortal
    posted 10 July 2007 09:57 AM EDT (US)     52 / 67       
    http://aom.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=6702

    DAP thats a game I lost. Thor vs. Thor on highland!

    Expect the unexpectable...
    Ingame name = DoO_VonDutch / VonDutchXV
    irG0d
    Banned
    posted 10 July 2007 01:35 PM EDT (US)     53 / 67       
    anyone who chooses aot over a girl is pretty weird xD

    unless the girl didnt give good head in which case i agree.
    Squeoo
    Mortal
    posted 10 July 2007 02:42 PM EDT (US)     54 / 67       
    is there a perversion limit too???

    i know theres a swear limit...

    but that was really inappropriate to say with many people on here being 15-

    i say 15 under, because well... you are in some insane denial if you don't think 16 year old guys are pervs... with limited exceptions
    irG0d
    Banned
    posted 10 July 2007 03:14 PM EDT (US)     55 / 67       
    if anyone here is under 15 and hasnt had a gf yet i am incredibly worried because everyone here is over 13.
    Squeoo
    Mortal
    posted 10 July 2007 03:20 PM EDT (US)     56 / 67       
    theres a difference between having a gf and "unless she didn't give good head"
    irG0d
    Banned
    posted 10 July 2007 05:35 PM EDT (US)     57 / 67       
    well im sorry if i consider the day wasted if i dont receive head from at least 9 different girls.
    Squeoo
    Mortal
    posted 10 July 2007 05:37 PM EDT (US)     58 / 67       
    i think shanks put it best when he said, IrG0d, check your e-mail.

    enough said.
    Cheddar Chap
    Mortal
    (id: The Cheese Man)
    posted 10 July 2007 07:28 PM EDT (US)     59 / 67       
    Squeoo, I agree with you but you should stop the moderator tone.


    █▄ █▄█ ▄█▀ ▀█▀
    I too always thought "blog" would sound less silly as the years went by.
    Mozzarella Man Cheddar Chap, Brie Bloke, Gorgonzola Guy, Feta Fellow, Wensleydale Warrior, Edam Emperor, Parmesan Priest,
    Munster Mate, Asiago Associate, Provolone Player, Havarti Hunk, Romano Rabbi, Swiss Soldier, Limburger Lass, Gouda Gentleman
    Squeoo
    Mortal
    posted 10 July 2007 08:38 PM EDT (US)     60 / 67       
    i was just trying to kind of quote without the quotations.
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