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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » How to get used to playing Supremacy?
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Topic Subject:How to get used to playing Supremacy?
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Jo93
Mortal
posted 14 September 2008 12:52 PM EDT (US)         
Hi, I'm a VERY old AoM player (I think I got it when the game was first released) and I used to play Deathmatch (with Norse) a LOT.
I was rated something decent at one point but I've completely forgoton what it was (it wasn't top 100 or anything though.)

After about 4 years (so I have nearly forgotton everything) I've decided to start playing again but with Supremacy and a different god probably (although I haven't decided.

At the moment I'm working my way through the campaign, which I never did when I played before.

I'd like to know if the game has changed much in any particular way, and some tips for Deathmatch players trying Supremacy for the first time.

Other than that, I'd just like to say Hi to all the forum members as well!

PS, I don't own the Titans expansion pack.

Thanks

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
AuthorReplies:
Dudis
Mortal
posted 21 September 2008 05:09 AM EDT (US)     31 / 122       
They certainly go for guys who troll on forums for 6 year old RTS games, am I right?
Touche.
The1337JC
Mortal
posted 21 September 2008 05:10 AM EDT (US)     32 / 122       
I don't think fishing is too important on Midgard, as long as you play relatively offensively and can gain a lot of map control. Hunting abounds, especially the walruses near the edge of the map. You're probably better off to do some fishing, I'm just saying it's not as important as fishing on say, Mediterranean.

As for food techs, I've mostly seen that people will research one of hunting dogs and husbandry in Archaic, depending on the map, and then grab the other one in Classical. You'll want all the farm upgrades you can get as soon as you start relying on farms, and you should probably have all of them fairly early on in Heroic.

As for Wonders, I've only ever seen them in team games.

It's kinda cool to discuss noob stuff with another noob, but I bet the experts who read this are frothing at the mouth to correct me.
VB_WhiplashJC
Mortal
posted 21 September 2008 06:42 AM EDT (US)     33 / 122       
Fishing is important on every map.

If you don't get hunting dogs in archaic, don't get it later as a general rule. If you didn't get it early, its because its a low hunt map or you're Ra. In both cases you won't be hunting enough for it to be worth it.

People do make wonders in 1v1, but it's pretty rare.

www.vbclan.net - Aussie/Kiwi AoT and AoE3 clan
The1337JC
Mortal
posted 21 September 2008 07:43 AM EDT (US)     34 / 122       
I just won a game by Wonder incidentally... heh.

After I hit heroic I noticed that he wasn't really building much of an army so I went straight to Mythic with barely a handful of CAs of my own. We both had the same idea so we never really fought until we were both Mythic and pretty much full upgrades. I thought it made a lot of sense to spam Migdols, like 10 of em and then just AQ em into his base but it proved harder than I thought and he kept me fighting for a long time without really doing any damage.

Since I was on the offensive I thought it was pretty safe to build a titan gate. My macro was pretty poor and I just couldnt free up enough food to prevent his squad of catapults from ruining my gate as it neared 90% complete @_@

Also, he was able to push better than me. Rather than just spam units he was much better at using his catapults to destroy my Migdols while we fought. The economies were ruthless by now though, both of us basically couldnt run out of resources if we tried. I kept replacing my migdols. In the end I just thought that neither of us were really good enough to push through the mountain of crap we both were able to produce so I simply built a wonder and spammed walls on every inch of my side of the map (much to the chagrin of my trade camels :P). Kept my Migdols on AQ and just waited.

I think the guy played better than me and I told as much. But hey, that Play to Win thing speaks the truth, I did what it took to win, even though he played better, and I won.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 21 September 2008 11:15 AM EDT (US)     35 / 122       
That sounded like a fun game JC, you may be just new to the game, but at least u play it smart if not to ur full extent of skill atm.

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 09-21-2008 @ 11:16 AM).]

The1337JC
Mortal
posted 21 September 2008 11:39 AM EDT (US)     36 / 122       
On watching the replay, the only reason I missed the catapults is because he teleported them up with Shifting Sands... I definitely would have seen them otherwise. Took like 10 seconds to ruin my gate...

Only thing I could have done to stop that would be monuments and better gate position, I don't feel so bad about losing the gate now, it was a really smart move from him.

I think the game would have been easier if I hadn't neglected mason upgrades (completely forgot). I seen in some replays people are making walls and putting catapults behind them, seems like a really good way to lay siege, but I'm not sure that would have helped me much in this game.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 21 September 2008 12:26 PM EDT (US)     37 / 122       
Thanks for the tips (and the wonder game story) JC!

I just lost another couple of games.. first on Anatolia to a Greek who simply outplayed me (game lasted over 30mins though) and then to a herisir rush v. quickly from norse.

What is the best way to defend against a Herisir rush? I hit classical at around 5.30 (I'm trying to get that figure down) but by then I had hardly any army and he simply beat me...

Using the ceasefire god power helped, but not much...

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 22 September 2008 07:21 AM EDT (US)     38 / 122       
could be, but do I have wasted my time? Is playing a month or so vs a hard CPU completely wasting your life?
I said time, not life. Whether you are wasting your time depends on your goals. If you are just playing for fun, with no real goals that you desire to achieve, then that month is fine. However, if you wish to improve your skill, then you are wasting your time playing vs hard CPU. And the creator of this thread sure has that goal.
Its not really optional to have ups slower than say, 5:30.
Depends, as always. When you are opposing, say, Ra, then a classical advance of 6:00 can well be viable.
there aren't that many cheap tricks in online play..are there?
That depends on your mindset. If you are a scrub, you will find plenty of "cheap" tricks, including playing "overpowered" gods, spamming towers, spamming good units, making walls, using overpowered god powers, digging out titans, winning by wonder, etc etc etc.

If you are beyond scrubdom, you no longer use the term "cheap tricks" and search for ways to counter these tactics instead. Tactics that are uncounterable mean imbalance. A few imbalances do exist in this game, since patching was stopped far too early, but way fewer than a scrub would believe.
If you don't get hunting dogs in archaic, don't get it later as a general rule. If you didn't get it early, its because its a low hunt map or you're Ra.
Or you are Thor and fishing, so you do not need the hunt.
People do make wonders in 1v1, but it's pretty rare.
It is not so rare. I r noob presented a replay not long ago in which he won a lost game by means of wonder. In fact, he once weaseled out of a certain loss vs me by making a wonder. Wonders can turn the tide and decide about victory. And they are scrub's favorite to call you cheap and lamer because of.
What is the best way to defend against a Herisir rush? I hit classical at around 5.30 (I'm trying to get that figure down) but by then I had hardly any army and he simply beat me...
The hersir rush is only really dangerous if your opponent is Loki, who trains longhouse units (including hersirs) faster and spawns free MU with his hersirs while fighting. Against this, you should advance faster than 5:30. Something like 5:00 sounds reasonable. Then, you need lots of tox. Hippikons are of little use against Loki in classical age. You may make a couple of them as a meat shield for your toxotes, but you will mainly need toxotes against his hersirs and TA.

Battle micro is crucial against Loki. Left on their own, your toxotes will select the opponent with the highest attack, so you will find them all firing at his high-hp Einherjar while his hersirs are killing you and spawning more Einherjars. Hersirs are high-hp-units in general, which is why focus-fire is particularly useful against them. So what you need to do is select all your tox (you better put them in a group on a number key for quick access) and order them to fire at the same hersir. You want one hersir to die quickly, not many hersirs to be wounded but still dealing damage as if they were healthy. When the first hersir is down, focus-fire the next. Make sure that all your tox always aim at the same hersir, so that you kill them one-by-one. Use your few hipps as obstacles to delay the hersirs from proceeding to your tox. Loki is a myth unit god, so make sure you got both of your heroes out, and always have them attacking his myth. Your ranged hero will be particularly useful concerning that. If he has multiple myths, always have your heroes target the einherjars with priority: Due to their horn blast that empowers his whole army, they are the most dangerous foes. Use your centaurs as additional myth unit killers: Centaurs get a fat bonus against enemy myth units, and they are ranged, so you can keep them at distance from his hersirs. Always have your tox target any hersirs that attack your cents with priority.

That is it. No micro, no victory vs Loki. Raiding is good, but you need to be able to afford it. First of all you need to repulse the initial onslaught. Once your home base is safe, you can detach a hipp squad on a retaliation mission against his rear economy.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
VB_WhiplashJC
Mortal
posted 22 September 2008 07:31 AM EDT (US)     39 / 122       
Or you are Thor and fishing, so you do not need the hunt.
or any other civ for that matter...
It is not so rare. I r noob presented a replay not long ago in which he won a lost game by means of wonder. In fact, he once weaseled out of a certain loss vs me by making a wonder. Wonders can turn the tide and decide about victory. And they are scrub's favorite to call you cheap and lamer because of.
and that shows its not rare how? i'd say less that 1/100 1v1 supremacy games have wonders in them.

www.vbclan.net - Aussie/Kiwi AoT and AoE3 clan

[This message has been edited by VB_WhiplashJC (edited 09-22-2008 @ 07:34 AM).]

Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 22 September 2008 09:39 AM EDT (US)     40 / 122       
and that shows its not rare how? i'd say less that 1/100 1v1 supremacy games have wonders in them
Your numbers are way off dude.

Atleast in the higher brackets the games tend to be more drawn out, thus ending with a wonder now and then.

I'd say in the higher brackets it's more like 1/25 where atleast one player tries to complete a wonder (meaning the wonder played a part in the game, obviously).

I'm just pulling the numbers out of my ass, but it's the general feel I have from watching tons and tons of expert recs.
VB_WhiplashJC
Mortal
posted 22 September 2008 09:57 PM EDT (US)     41 / 122       
a rec is much more likely to be posted if it goes to wonder/s.

www.vbclan.net - Aussie/Kiwi AoT and AoE3 clan
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 23 September 2008 04:32 AM EDT (US)     42 / 122       
Personally, I start wonders pretty often if the game makes it to Titan Age, knowing that they can turn the tide even if I am otherwise winning. I do not want to lose a winning game just because the opponent made a wonder, and I could not pull out victory quickly enough. So even if I am already winning otherwise, I often start a wonder to be on the safe side, especially since as Norse I only have sufficient workers for this during ragnarok. But I am not alone: I r noob has left no doubt that he often considers a wonder in lack of alternatives. And again, with a wonder he turned the tide in a game that he would otherwise have lost with Isis vs me on Oasis.
or any other civ for that matter...
Other civs need early hunt (or another source of food) to power their vill production until sufficient fishing income has been established. Thor can use his Thor mine and produce dwarves that cost gold after spending his initial food on vills. While all dwarf is not good, making dwarves in this case on water maps is good practice.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
VB_WhiplashJC
Mortal
posted 23 September 2008 06:14 AM EDT (US)     43 / 122       
so what you're saying is that you get hunting dogs as all civs but thor on water? interesting.

www.vbclan.net - Aussie/Kiwi AoT and AoE3 clan
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 24 September 2008 03:38 AM EDT (US)     44 / 122       
I am not deep enough into water BOs of other races to tell for sure whether you will actually spend the resources to research HD. But the other races will require some food for additional vills before they can entirely rely on fishing, and hunting is the best source of food if it is present near your home TC, with or without HD.

Thor is pretty much the only god that can build up on water entirely without any source of food other than fishing (although he will sometimes use some pigs to achieve a faster classical).

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 24 September 2008 05:21 PM EDT (US)     45 / 122       
Supremecy and Conquest are the best.

Death match if freaking stupid! Before you can even blink someone has already got a titan!

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 03:13 PM EDT (US)     46 / 122       
Make sure that all your tox always aim at the same hersir, so that you kill them one-by-one. Use your few hipps as obstacles to delay the hersirs from proceeding to your tox. Loki is a myth unit god, so make sure you got both of your heroes out, and always have them attacking his myth. Your ranged hero will be particularly useful concerning that.
That seems likve very logical advice, thanks. I usually don't have archery ranges up untill later. By the time he attacked me I only had a couple of cavelry building units.
I guess it goes to show that I need to check what civilisation I am playing and adjust my tactics to whatever I think they are likely to use...

If I ever see I am playing Loki again for example, I shall expect a herisir rush, try and make a fast classical, and get archery ranges up early. Come to think of it, how do I know what civilisation I am playing though untill I have sent a scout to their base? Does it show up on the start game screen when the game is loading?

(Yes, I am a v. inexperienced player as u might be able to tell, sorry for asking such silly questions. I was even stupid enough to overlook building heros because Loki Herisir summon MUs)

Sorry for posting in this thread if it is a bit old.. I am new to this forum and don't fully understand the etiquette; is this thread to old to post in?

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 04:38 AM EDT (US)     47 / 122       
Threads that are too old to post in get automatically archived, i.e. you can still review them, but no longer post in them. As long as you can post, it is fine. Besides, everything up to one month is np in thread age, and you posted a mere 4 days after the last reply in this thread.
I guess it goes to show that I need to check what civilisation I am playing and adjust my tactics to whatever I think they are likely to use...
Yes. Adjusting your whole tactics and buildup to both the map and the enemy god is very important, and you can hardly expect ever to become good without it. Infantry counters are the most important unit type against Loki, and toxotes are the best classical Greek unit vs infantry. It is not his hersirs that defeat you, it is the free myth units that they spawn. For that reason, you need to kill his hersirs with priority. Do not give them the time to create many myth units!

Likewise, you need to know how to play against every single of the other gods. If you have questions, you can both ask here and download replays of an elite player playing your god against that particular race. That should give you an idea how to do it.
Come to think of it, how do I know what civilisation I am playing though untill I have sent a scout to their base? Does it show up on the start game screen when the game is loading?
Yes, and if you still miss/forget it, there are these icons in the upper right corner of your screen during the game. One of them reveals the name of the map, the gods of the participating players, and their god powers. You can also see here which god powers have already been used. This can sometimes be useful vs Loki who can secretly cast his spy power without you being notified. By checking here you can always find out whether he has already used it, and perhaps make a guess which unit/group of units he has used it upon.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 11:35 AM EDT (US)     48 / 122       
well.. That is most of the time a villie/ox cart, and in the beginning you dont want to sacrifice even 1 villie to disable his GP.
i r n00b
Banned
posted 29 September 2008 04:54 PM EDT (US)     49 / 122       
If losing, make wonder and mass building.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 30 September 2008 00:57 AM EDT (US)     50 / 122       
siege with engineers rape all buildings if you mass them when you re winning.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 30 September 2008 02:11 AM EDT (US)     51 / 122       
LOL. You will tell i r n00b, I am sure, Arus.

Of course there are situations in which a wonder will not save your ass. But generally, massed buildings can significantly slow down his advance, and terrain with massed buildings favors the defender. This holds even more true if these buildings can produce stuff. In some cases you can nurse out a win in a game situation where you otherwise had zero chances to overpower your opponent in the long run.
well.. That is most of the time a villie/ox cart, and in the beginning you dont want to sacrifice even 1 villie to disable his GP.
Not in the very beginning, but if I knew exactly which unit he casted it upon, I would probably be willing to sacrifice it when I hit classical age. However, when you know he had temporary vision on your hunting group and expect his spy power to have gone there, you never know exactly which of your hunting units he targeted. You will not want to delete your whole hunting group, so you will have to live with it.

However, knowing where his spy power is located is an advantage in itself. You will not try to secretly hunt somewhere at the edge of the map when you can expect your hunting group to contain a spy. You could, however, occasionally take your hunters home and employ them on goats or wood, along with their cart, while you send the ones previously tasked with that job to secret hunting.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 30 September 2008 01:26 PM EDT (US)     52 / 122       
But with "begining" I mean the first 2.3 minutes.

But if you know on wich villie he casted it in the classical, you can send him with 2/3 units to a gold mine and make it as it is your only gold mining group. Make some counters of his army and hide them near your fake-gold miners, and you will deploy them when he attacks your spy-villie. Then send your real gold miners to a secret gold mine.
Of course there are situations in which a wonder will not save your ass. But generally, massed buildings can significantly slow down his advance, and terrain with massed buildings favors the defender. This holds even more true if these buildings can produce stuff. In some cases you can nurse out a win in a game situation where you otherwise had zero chances to overpower your opponent in the long run.
But when you are winning, you most of the time already have a siege squad in a army, and if you just make 5 catapults, what can he do about it? Of course make even more buiildings, but I think your archers should kill his villies who make more buildings, and the rest of your army his army, since when you are winning, you will likely have a better army/more producing buildings than he has.

It seems to me that it wont work. Maybe if you are losing since a small amount of time so you can prepare your defenses for a wonder.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 01 October 2008 02:43 AM EDT (US)     53 / 122       
Thanks Death and Pain!

Just out of interest, what god do you play and what rating are you? It's just that you seem like one of the "more knowlegable" members of the forum when it coems to the game itself. Either that, or you put your point across very well..

And I can't believe that u guys are at the level where u consider sacrificing units just to prevent a spying god power if ur opponent is Loki. That is seriously tactical haha..

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 01 October 2008 04:54 AM EDT (US)     54 / 122       
But if you know on wich villie he casted it in the classical, you can send him with 2/3 units to a gold mine and make it as it is your only gold mining group.
If you saw an enemy gold mining party with only 2-3 miners in it, would you actually believe that the enemy is serious about this being his only gold income?
Make some counters of his army and hide them near your fake-gold miners, and you will deploy them when he attacks your spy-villie.
Raiders are typically fast units, so he can simply run when your army attacks. So you invest huge effort and achieve nothing. If for some reason you know exactly which vill he casted his spy power upon, use him on a farm or goat or delete him.
But when you are winning, you most of the time already have a siege squad in a army
Siege are very slow and vulnerable units, and even these take their time destroying enemy buildings. Remember that the point in spamming the buildings is not overpowering the enemy, but buying you time. And you can easily win several minutes with them.

He can use small siege-counter squads to kill your siege. You need to make replacement siege back in your fortress or whatever, and then move the slow siege units to the front. Also remember that not everyone is Eggy with their op catapults and near-free siege shops that can be erected everywhere. As a Norse, you can choose between ballistas that take an eternity to destroy a building and rams that are melee and therefore easy to kill even for vills (vills get a bonus vs siege).
Of course make even more buiildings, but I think your archers should kill his villies who make more buildings
Try to micro that. Whenever an enemy unit dies, your archers will target any military with priority over villagers. Meanwhile, replacing his vills or Norse inf from 3 TCs means a constant stream. Remember we are not talking about a situation in which he is already broke and crushed. He is just on the defensive and slowly losing ground without being able to do anything about it. He still has plenty of income, especially food from well-upgraded farms, so for every vill that your archers kill, 2 new will appear.

In addition, a smart opponent will realize his upcoming defeat before your army stands in the middle of his base. This means that he starts spamming the buildings in his base before your men pour in.

Also remember that although his army is basically inferior, he is instantly getting replacements right from the buildings at the place of the battle, while any soldier of you that dies is missing on your side until a replacement has covered the distance from your barracks to his base. The time pressure that the wonder creates can force the attacker to fight under conditions that no longer favor him. I lost my game vs i r n00b that way, as I could no longer wisely conduct my forces, but had to attack all-out against his massive entrenchments with huge losses.
Thanks Death and Pain!
You are welcome.
Just out of interest, what god do you play and what rating are you?
I am a dedicated Thor player, although I used to play all Norse and Greek gods in former times. My rating widely fluctuates, for I often play for fun although I am tired from work in the evening. As the consequence, about 50% of my losses are caused by BO messup in archaic age. When I feel well, I win approximately 50% of my games at 1700 level (used to be 1750, but decreased by 50 since I got a new girl friend and had less time to play). Otherwise, I can drop as low as 1600. I never name my highest rating because it is meaningless. I can only laugh about players that believe they "are" their highest rating.

I also suspect that advancing age plays a role. Starcraft world champions are between 17 and 22 years old. After that, age has an impact on speed. I am about to become 36. You do the math. For that reason, I believe I have the knowledge, but no longer the speed for the real high ratings.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Jo93
Mortal
posted 01 October 2008 01:21 PM EDT (US)     55 / 122       
You don't become slower when you're 36...surely..

I perhaps by the time you're 50 or something your reactions have decreased a bit, but mid 30s... that's still relatively young..

There's successfull profesional tennis and rugby players at your age (not many footballers though).. so decline in physical condition is no excuse for lack of success at this game =p

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 02 October 2008 02:00 AM EDT (US)     56 / 122       
ok,ok DaP you are right..
If you saw an enemy gold mining party with only 2-3 miners in it, would you actually believe that the enemy is serious about this being his only gold income?
but remember that im 1600- and many players there dont mind if you only have 3/4 gold miners, they just think you are a newb or just going heavy tox or so..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 02 October 2008 02:19 AM EDT (US)     57 / 122       
You don't become slower when you're 36...surely..
Why do you think that professional football (soccer) goalkeepers retire at approximately that age? As a goalkeeper, you do not have to run much, so endurance sure is not the reason why the clubs look for younger goalkeepers when their old one reaches that age.

And believe me, it starts much earlier than that. Again, at the Starcraft championships you stand pretty much no chance at all if you are above the age of 23, so it starts as early as then. And Starcraft is exactly the same type of game as AoM.
but remember that im 1600- and many players there dont mind if you only have 3/4 gold miners, they just think you are a newb or just going heavy tox or so..
Yes, but by the stars thou shalt navigate, not by the lights of other ships. Unless you plan on remaining 1600- for the rest of your life, that is. I agree that against bad players, poor tactics may succeed. But believe me, good tactics will also succeed against these players, and with a greater likelihood.

And for a total of 3 gold miners, you would have to be 1500-, even if you are going for toxotes.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 02 October 2008 12:47 PM EDT (US)     58 / 122       
hmm... yeah thats true..
marcus owns all
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 07:48 PM EDT (US)     59 / 122       
Everyone in these forums always recommend recorded games. I absolutely agree with you all; they sound great. But is there any way i could possibly download some Mac vanilla (that means non-titans expansion, right?) recs from anywhere? Any sites you know that I could use? Coz I'm not really getting much better as it is. Thanks.
Dudis
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 10:34 PM EDT (US)     60 / 122       
I dunno what my skill level is since usually im too good for the noobs only games but not good enough for the regular supremecy games and 16+ games....

Btw Im thinking of playing Greek again instead of eggy but im not sure. What wpuld better suit my playstyle? Which Greek should I be? Should I continue with Isis?

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
"Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
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