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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Mercenaries?
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Topic Subject:Mercenaries?
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Hedrought
Mortal
posted 22 September 2008 08:09 PM EDT (US)         
I think it's very stupid how Mercenaries die after a short period of time!

Like why do they die? are they diseased or something?

And what is a useful purpose for them?

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
AuthorReplies:
Dark_Armor
Mortal
posted 26 September 2008 02:35 PM EDT (US)     31 / 63       
oh I c, that are the ones that looks like Achilles, eh?

weird to think that this could have been a "normal" unit (so not a hero)..
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 26 September 2008 03:45 PM EDT (US)     32 / 63       
I wish they made an Achillies hero on foot that could revive, and looked different from the Cataphract.

Oh and about the Cataphract, at least we get to use them in Editor. better then not getting them at all.

Now about the Mercenaries...
I found out how to make them last longer using triggers.
For those who dont know here is how to do it.

1.Use Modify Protounit effect.
2.Set function to Lifespan.
3.Then set the number from 1.0 to 999999999999999999999.0
(Doesent matter how many 9's there is, just add alot.)

Q: I did so then added some Mercenaries to the map but diden't show up when I play tested my scenario!
A: Then your Mercenaries died while in editor mode. The only good way to make Mercenaries show up is to make use army editor and select a Mercenary then make your army.
Q: Ok I now have a Mercenary Army added to triggers, now how do I make them show up on my map when using play test?
A: Add the Trigger Army deploy then use your Mercenary army and then select where you want them to spawn.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 27 September 2008 02:20 PM EDT (US)     33 / 63       
You are just repeating Baske
Any mercenary who hasn't died has cheated using the modify protounit trigger, and has set his lifespan to -99999999999.
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 27 September 2008 05:09 PM EDT (US)     34 / 63       
You are just repeating Baske
Well if I dident repeat some of the things he said then my little guide woulden't be very detailed.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 04:37 AM EDT (US)     35 / 63       
My point is that your "little guide" useless is. All players who come to this topic in the strategy forum, know how to change lifespan, or if they dont know, they dont want to know it, or else they asked it on the scenario design forum.
Dudis
Mortal
posted 28 September 2008 05:29 AM EDT (US)     36 / 63       
Catapharct suk, i tested them on editor vs infantry and they didnt do aswell as they should for their cost.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 04:43 AM EDT (US)     37 / 63       
Then your Mercenaries died while in editor mode.
ROFL. The AoM editor is so excellently designed... when you place hostile units on your map, I wonder why they do not start fighting it out right away in the editor. That would save the players the hassle from conducting the battle later...
Catapharct suk, i tested them on editor vs infantry and they didnt do aswell as they should for their cost.
Make a guess, Dudis: Why did ES not invest much effort into properly balancing cataphracts before they released the game?

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Dudis
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 08:40 PM EDT (US)     38 / 63       
Oh so they canceled them a while before the game was released? I thought they were 100% finished but ES canceled them very late.

Also i wish there was an archer that counters horses
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 29 September 2008 11:30 PM EDT (US)     39 / 63       
ROFL. The AoM editor is so excellently designed... when you place hostile units on your map, I wonder why they do not start fighting it out right away in the editor. That would save the players the hassle from conducting the battle later...
Haha yeah, I had it set before where they attaked eachother right away in editor. And I agree, AOM's editor is the best! Alot easier and better then B4ME's World builder....
Oh so they canceled them a while before the game was released? I thought they were 100% finished but ES canceled them very late.

Also i wish there was an archer that counters horses
I think that the Chariot would make a good calvary counter that's and archer..
Another good one would be the Gastephetes (Spell check please, I mean the Greek Crossbowmen)

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 30 September 2008 02:34 AM EDT (US)     40 / 63       
Oh so they canceled them a while before the game was released? I thought they were 100% finished but ES canceled them very late.
Well, the unit itself is finished, otherwise you would not be able to use it in custom scenarios. But after the programming of the game comes the playtesting and balancing, which is when they decided not to use it. And of course after the decision not to use this unit no further effort was invested in balancing it.

Remember that even the released game was not very balanced early on. Poseidon was way overpowered back then. More balancing was done in a series of patches, but for obvious reasons the cataphract was not covered by these.
I think that the Chariot would make a good calvary counter that's and archer..
True is that the chariot is better vs cavalry than it should be, with its huge range and high hack armor, but still I would not exactly call it a cav counter.
Another good one would be the Gastephetes
Ah no. They have long range, but horrible accuracy and can never hope to hit a moving cav unit. In addition, they are slow, and when the cavalry gets there they will die like flies.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
ninjapenguin981
Mortal
(id: ninjapenguin)
posted 30 September 2008 05:28 PM EDT (US)     41 / 63       
ROFL. The AoM editor is so excellently designed... when you place hostile units on your map, I wonder why they do not start fighting it out right away in the editor. That would save the players the hassle from conducting the battle later...
They do...sometimes.

Thing is, when you don't want them to attack each other they do...and when you do want them to, they don't

-_-'

Very annoying.

ninjapenguin981
I AM THE ALMIGHTY ETERNAL LOSER SISSY BOY
Hedrought
Mortal
posted 30 September 2008 06:03 PM EDT (US)     42 / 63       
True is that the chariot is better vs cavalry than it should be, with its huge range and high hack armor, but still I would not exactly call it a cav counter.
Well thats not really what I meant, what I meant was that ES should have made Chariot Archers calvary counters because in real life they probably would be considering that they have speed and more accuracy then a archer on horseback
Ah no. They have long range, but horrible accuracy and can never hope to hit a moving cav unit. In addition, they are slow, and when the cavalry gets there they will die like flies.
I can totally understand why you say that but again realistically a crossbowman would be a good counter calvary because bolts can pierce armor much better.

Life is but an illusion of particles and energy.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 01 October 2008 01:00 AM EDT (US)     43 / 63       
bolts can pierce armour much better.
Same with infantery armour.

And you had to wait till the horse came close, so that you knew your bolt would hit. Otherwise you had to reload.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 01 October 2008 02:17 AM EDT (US)     44 / 63       
Well thats not really what I meant, what I meant was that ES should have made Chariot Archers calvary counters because in real life they probably would be considering that they have speed and more accuracy then a archer on horseback
You are giving a reason why CA are good archers in general, which is well reflected by their AoM stats. However, that is no reason to make them a cav counter, and if they were, they would be even more op than they are now, up to the point of being uncounterable.

Remember that in AoM, CA are hard enough to counter, as they move as fast as huskarls, stand a good chance against cavalry thanks to their good hack armor, and outrange the ranged archers counters so bitterly that these can hardly hope ever to get in range, especially the slow slingers and peltasts.

Balance comes first anyway. Better an unrealistic but balanced RTS game, than a realistic one that is so imbalanced that you can only play one race if you hope to win.
I can totally understand why you say that but again realistically a crossbowman would be a good counter calvary because bolts can pierce armor much better.
As Arus already mentioned, this goes for any type of target. However, cavalry are the worst targets for ranged units because they are moving fast and therefore hard to hit. And I do not think crossbowmen stand much of a chance in melee combat against cavalry. Another way to put it: If cavalry is not the right unit type to counter crossbowmen, then what is?

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 02 October 2008 01:01 PM EDT (US)     45 / 63       
If cavalry is not the right unit type to counter crossbowmen, then what is?
Flank/rear attack with a horse squad
Hafrsfjord
Mortal
posted 02 October 2008 03:26 PM EDT (US)     46 / 63       
They do...sometimes.

Thing is, when you don't want them to attack each other they do...and when you do want them to, they don't

-_-'

Very annoying.
That happens to me too. If you open up the editor, and load up a new map from the menu, the units you place will attack any enemies in their LOS.
Jo93
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 02:41 PM EDT (US)     47 / 63       
Do these units still last 40 seconds and do any (good) players use them agresively? If so, how and how often?

I can see them being good to defend a central TC for example, but is it worth training them INSTEAD of spearmen for example? Are they more valuable in Clasical because of the fact that they cant be upgraded but are pretty strong when they are built?

With a 40 second lifespan, will many decent players simply retreat their troops and refuse to fight untill the mercs die?

I know Ra is considered a "booming" god so is more likely to use these units because they are more likely to be on the defensive, but are they usefull for any of the other gods? Are they ever used without the tech that gives them 30s lifespan because I have never used them in any of my games when playing Isis (not that I've played that many)

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..

[This message has been edited by Jo93 (edited 10-05-2008 @ 02:44 PM).]

aZeusdude
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 05:38 PM EDT (US)     48 / 63       
I use mercenaries when I am under attack by my enemy, but I don't have that much gold so I can only hire a few
Dudis
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 06:51 PM EDT (US)     49 / 63       
Well if your in mythic and have ALOT of gold to spare make a bunch of mercenaries and add them to your army, they cost no pop so it will give you an advantage over the other players army.
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 05 October 2008 06:56 PM EDT (US)     50 / 63       
Do these units still last 40 seconds and do any (good) players use them agresively? If so, how and how often?
In games that go to mythic, you will usually see eggy players setting up a massive trade route so they always have a surplus of gold, and pretty much have all of their mercs out any time there is fighting, anywhere.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 00:59 AM EDT (US)     51 / 63       
:0 never thought about that, you can make FULL pop caravans, and no villies, so you have a MASSIVE gold income (140 camels =), and you.. just rape all..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 03:36 AM EDT (US)     52 / 63       
With what? Mercs only and a couple priests? That will not suffice. You will need some food and wood for real units, so you need to have a proper food/wood economy in addition. Market trading will quickly become inefficient and is therefore not the alternative.
If cavalry is not the right unit type to counter crossbowmen, then what is?
Flank/rear attack with a horse squad
So you are saying that I should use horse units instead of cavalry for this task? Okay...
do any (good) players use them agresively? If so, how and how often?
Download and watch elite replays if you want to see the answer and learn this game in general. There is no alternative.
is it worth training them INSTEAD of spearmen for example?
If you can expect to use them up before they expire, yes. They simply have better stats than regular units, and the base stats of spearmen are not even good.

You can well use them for an attack if you can expect to reach your target quickly enough so that they do enough fighting before they expire. Also remember Hathor's Medjay tech.
Are they more valuable in Clasical because of the fact that they cant be upgraded but are pretty strong when they are built?
Your "fact" is no fact. Like heroes mercs get their line upgrade automatically at every age advance, so e.g. in heroic age you automatically have heavy mercs. Mercs also benefit from your armory upgrades.
With a 40 second lifespan, will many decent players simply retreat their troops and refuse to fight untill the mercs die?
Not sure how you mean that. Do you mean to let the mercs fight it out first and hold back your army until they are smoked up? That would be a mistake, because it violates the Robocop prime directive "The larger army takes the lesser losses." Your mercs would be outnumbered and therefore die without achieving much. However, having them on top of your regular army can make you win the battle at minimal losses (or at all).
I know Ra is considered a "booming" god so is more likely to use these units because they are more likely to be on the defensive, but are they usefull for any of the other gods?
Yes. Any Eggy will extensively use these if the place of the battle is near one of his TCs. Especially (but not only) to defend against a surprise attack against one of his TCs.

Again, mercs have excellent stats. Better than their human counterparts. And even if they did not, having additional combat units in the battle is of great value because of the rule mentioned above. And mercs are always "additional" because they cost no pop.
Are they ever used without the tech that gives them 30s lifespan
Yes. In fact, I rarely see that tech being researched although I agree on its value. Mercs are useful up to the point of op-ness as they are though.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 01:04 PM EDT (US)     53 / 63       
]With what? Mercs only and a couple priests? That will not suffice. You will need some food and wood for real units, so you need to have a proper food/wood economy in addition. Market trading will quickly become inefficient and is therefore not the alternative.
Why will that not suffice? Seems to me that you just can make horse mercs, and if they counter with hops or so, you can make infantery mercs.. And for MU, indeed 10 priests or so..
So you are saying that I should use horse units instead of cavalry for this task? Okay...
Erm.. I meant instead of 5 horse -vs- 5 crossbows, you can make a few distraction units, and attack crosses with horses from the rear/back, so they wont notice them until its too late..

Ye, ok its not such a good comment, but anyway..
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 06 October 2008 06:00 PM EDT (US)     54 / 63       
Because 12 mercs and 8 merc cav are not enough to do anything on their own.

Added on top of a big army; however, they are a huge bonus.

By "massive" trade I didn't mean pop limit caravans, but I do know ~1800 Ra players (in Vanilla) who often go Sekhmet for the 10 extra Pop so that they will have the pop space for 80 vills and 30 caravans in late game, letting them afford a full complement of mercs (even without the hathor upgrade) any time they want.

And if the situation isn't suited for mercs, that gold just goes into more and more migs and towers.

As a side note, that strategy won't do you any good if you aren't able to survive and secure gold mines and enough map for a good trade route in the earlier game. Use at your own risk. I know that I've never pulled it off successfully.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 01:12 AM EDT (US)     55 / 63       
ow, didnt know that you could only have so little mercs.. I really meant 50 horses and 100 inf or so..
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 03:22 AM EDT (US)     56 / 63       
Mercs were not limited in former times. A patch eventually changed that - fortunately. (I would prefer seeing them gone for good, or at least require free pop.)

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Dudis
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 03:47 AM EDT (US)     57 / 63       
If they get rid of mercs then they should get rid of Ox carts and instead norse would have to build dropsites.....
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 04:31 AM EDT (US)     58 / 63       
Nah, I am not trying to remove the special traits that distinguish the civs. I just believe that mercs are indeed op and defeat a lot of the point of the game. The point of a strategy game is to outsmart your opponent, e.g. with a rear surprise attack. If the surprised player can then just click a button to negate the attack, then the point of strategy is defeated.

And be honest: Eggy is strong enough on the battlefield with their op elephants and chariots. They can also defend their bases well, paying ultra-cheap prices for pretty much all structures and being the only vanilla race to get ballista towers. They do not need mercs in addition to stand their ground. If anything, they only need them to stop early rushes. For that reason, mercs could be made un-upgradable so that they serve their purpose in classical but lose their value as the game progresses.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Weed Basket
Carrier-pigeon of bad news
(id: Baske)
posted 07 October 2008 05:14 AM EDT (US)     59 / 63       
For that reason, mercs could be made un-upgradable so that they serve their purpose in classical but lose their value as the game progresses.
There's one I can agree with completely.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum”
Dudis
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 07:06 PM EDT (US)     60 / 63       
I guess thats fair....

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
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Zombie Gaddafi
Eater of no hats
(id: NeverPlayedHalo3)
posted 15 October 2008 03:43 PM EDT (US)     61 / 63       
I'm not one to play a ton of strategy, but I completely agree; It takes no skill at all to spam guys when u get overrun. I believe, myself, that they should take up pop, because even then, on a nomad map, u can spam them at the beginning and pwn all. So very good point, whoever mentioned that they should not be upgraded...Maybe some one should make a mod for that...But who would want to make things fair :P?

4:45 PM - Papaya: can I say that I want to put a ****ing knife in his throat and then take it back

If you don't like it here, we're not making you stay, so please, feel free to leave so Hook and I can make love to each other in peace.~ Shanks
Chlorhydris
Banned
posted 15 October 2008 06:14 PM EDT (US)     62 / 63       
"Maybe some one should make a mod for that...But who would want to make things fair :P?"

I don't believe making a mod for that, although it would be possible, would be at all useful - if you consider that most people play online, especially in rated, where playing with a mod like that installed (as far as I am aware) would not work, because it would cause OoS.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 16 October 2008 01:11 AM EDT (US)     63 / 63       
Why can you ever spam them in nomad at beginnning? How do you ever get all the gold for mercs and food for ur vills at the same time?
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