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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » How to rush successfully?
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Topic Subject:How to rush successfully?
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Jo93
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 10:04 AM EDT (US)         
I played a game of Isis vs. isis (oasais map) last night and made a nice little classical army and tried to rush my opponents base. However, I couldn't attack any vilagers without getting slaughtered by towers (there were no vilagers gathering outside the range of his towers).

In such a situation what is the best thing to do? Should I go ahead and attack the villies and retreat, attack the tower and suffer loses but know that I can destroy his economy when it is down, attack other buildings e.g. houses (not that that was a possibility in this game either) or simply wait with my army outside his base untill such times as there is an oppertunity to attack (either he tries to come outside with his villies or I have seige weapons)?

I was also wondering what are generally good tactics for raiding? How many troops are optimum for a raiding party? (a few spearmen get killed pretty quickly but a larger army takes longer to train). Should I attack at two different points? When is it best to pull the troops out?

Thanks in advanced,

Jo

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
AuthorReplies:
VB_WhiplashJC
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 10:20 AM EDT (US)     1 / 34       
Sit back and boom. Dont let him get 2nd gold.

www.vbclan.net - Aussie/Kiwi AoT and AoE3 clan
Ironclaw77
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 01:30 PM EDT (US)     2 / 34       
I second it^^

Make sure you know where the next resource places are and where he is going to go. When he goes there, attack him then so that he has no way of gathering resources.

I R O N C L A W 7 7
Everything that shines ain't always
gonna be gold.
Sly_Deception
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 01:42 PM EDT (US)     3 / 34       
Here's one.

DON'T RUSH WITH ISIS. (Unless, of course, you're anubite raiding or something.)

Your welcome.

"The U.S. economy is the way it is because President Bush forgot to research Husbandry." - mG_JaZz
Jo93
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 02:21 PM EDT (US)     4 / 34       
So the general idea is that I just try to get to Heroic and control the map rather than attacking. Once I have reached heroic, I can claim the settlements and goldmines etc. leaving him hopeless...

sounds good..even if it does take slightly longer to win..

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
dragonmax
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 02:39 PM EDT (US)     5 / 34       
dont rush isis v isis just do normal fast herioc strat
Jo93
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 03:58 PM EDT (US)     6 / 34       
What IS the Isis FH strat? I've heard of it but never seen as specific guide for it..


I read in The Golden Arm's guide "The Definative Egyptian" that "The very popular Isis FH is very powerful I wont post a build order because your aim is simple for the FH: 720 food and 450 gold by Classical."

But how exactly is this achieved? Is it left later to advance to classical? Are military units hardly produced at all during classical? And how fast is a FH meant to be? 9-10-11 mins?

In this guide it is also suggested that: "For the Mythic age I will most likely choose Thoth, because Meteor is usually a game ender" But I am not sure about this because SoO is also v powerfull and being able to have TWO pharoes is great for the economy and also for fighting myth untis if needed.

I am also wondering how many eggy or spcifically Isis players discontinue using Spearmen and slingers and switch to midigol chariot archers in Heroic..

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
Akimos_2
Mortal
posted 05 October 2008 10:34 PM EDT (US)     7 / 34       
What IS the Isis FH strat? I've heard of it but never seen as specific guide for it..

Isis FH is where you go Fast Heroic ._.

I read in The Golden Arm's guide "The Definative Egyptian" that "The very popular Isis FH is very powerful I wont post a build order because your aim is simple for the FH: 720 food and 450 gold by Classical."

But how exactly is this achieved? Is it left later to advance to classical? Are military units hardly produced at all during classical? And how fast is a FH meant to be? 9-10-11 mins?

Idealy no military units will be produced and only as many villagers as needed will be made. You're running for Heroic so you can boom with the nice cheap eco upgrades and trade route. Personally i find that this fails vs a rusher or if you're new (*cough*) so i tend to wall and tower off and get some eco upgrades as i go, while making a few barracks and infantry so i can AQ if attacked. I tend to go 5:00-6:00 for classical, and 12-14:30 for heroic. A true FH is IMO under 12 mins.

In this guide it is also suggested that: "For the Mythic age I will most likely choose Thoth, because Meteor is usually a game ender" But I am not sure about this because SoO is also v powerfull and being able to have TWO pharoes is great for the economy and also for fighting myth untis if needed.

I tend to go Osiris for Offensive games and Thoth for defensive games. The extra pharoh and SoO lets me empower my forward migdols, and Desert wind makes microing annoying siege that much easier. Thoth's ellies and Book of Thoth are good, but i'd only get book of thoth when you've got the spare wood and favour (IE get all your myth techs first)

I am also wondering how many eggy or spcifically Isis players discontinue using Spearmen and slingers and switch to midigol chariot archers in Heroic..

I like camels because i tend to go food heavy and gold heavy. Still, CA's are rather good. I tend to keep the barracks that i made in classical near my main town and get at least medium everything in case my forward midgols get destroyed, so i can resume AQing barracks units. I also find that Barracks units are more hard counters then migdol units, but that's just me....
LS_tmac911
Banned
posted 05 October 2008 10:44 PM EDT (US)     8 / 34       
Lower your shoulders, protect the ball, and run like your momma taught you
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 01:13 AM EDT (US)     9 / 34       
I tend to go 5:00-6:00 for classical, and 12-14:30 for heroic. A true FH is IMO under 12 mins
no, a true FH is at 6.30
I like camels because i tend to go food heavy and gold heavy. Still, CA's are rather good. I tend to keep the barracks that i made in classical near my main town and get at least medium everything in case my forward midgols get destroyed, so i can resume AQing barracks units. I also find that Barracks units are more hard counters then migdol units, but that's just me....
Camels suck. Just spam Thoth ellies
Jo93
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 01:44 AM EDT (US)     10 / 34       
I hear a lot about Thoth elies being the best units in the game and all right, they are powerfull, but are they the best pop wise and resources wise because not only are they expensive, but they have to be built from an expensive building... (150 food, 80 gold, slow to train)

In his guide to Isis, Zhaz says: "You can switch over to Migdol units but I myself prefer to mass out Barracks units."

I guess this is cheaper, AND simpler i.e. less micro/hastle so probably better for a less experienced player like myself.

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 01:57 AM EDT (US)     11 / 34       
Once you get Thoth's technology 'valley of the kings' midgol units train next to instantly, so train time wise in mythic midgol units are better.

"but are they the best pop wise and resources wise"

pretty sure they are. And hastle wise: midgol + valley of the kings + way point + thoth elephants = almost no micro.

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 02:29 AM EDT (US)     12 / 34       
I read in The Golden Arm's guide "The Definative Egyptian" that "The very popular Isis FH is very powerful I wont post a build order because your aim is simple for the FH: 720 food and 450 gold by Classical."

But how exactly is this achieved?
Aw, c'mon Jo. Every expert Isis plays FH, so there are thousands of corresponding replays available for download on AOTS. How hard can it be to download a few, watch the BO that the expert is following, and copy it?

Wathing multiple replays of experts building up with Isis should give you a better idea how it is done than any theoretical description.
A true FH is IMO under 12 mins.
Nope. 12 mins is by far too much.
no, a true FH is at 6.30
Nope either. 6:30 is pretty much the minimum time that can be achieved, but it is not usual. A typical Isis FH is somewhere around 8:30. Time varies depending on map and circumstances.
I hear a lot about Thoth elies being the best units in the game and all right, they are powerfull, but are they the best pop wise and resources wise
Yes. Simply yes. Fyi, they count as cavalry but still even beat prodromos pop-wise. They only need to fear myth units and a couple of the hardest cav counters.
because not only are they expensive
Hmm... $10 for a matchbox car sure would be expensive. $50 is even five times that money. But would you say that $50 for a real car is expensive? The term "expensive" is always to be seen in relation to what you get in return. And elephants sure are not expensive with regard to their combat value.
but they have to be built from an expensive building...
Eggy buildings are not expensive. That also goes for the migdol if you compare its price to its counterparts in the other races. And a good Eggy will spam migdols anyway, because they both secure areas and are Eggy's main source of all sorts of combat units, not only elephants.
In his guide to Isis, Zhaz says: "You can switch over to Migdol units but I myself prefer to mass out Barracks units."
I am not sure which guide you are referring to, but I suspect it to be outdated. Take care that there are some ancient guides out there, possibly referring to a former patch or even vanilla (non-expansion) AoM. Such guides are no longer valid in many cases. For instance, elephants used to be trash in former patches.

As a matter of fact sticking with only rax units in heroic age as Isis is idiotic, for both elephants and chariots are Eggy's strongest weapons. (Mixing some rax units in is advisable though.)
elephants = almost no micro.
This is to be emphasized. Elephants are zero-micro units. You just order them ahead with an attack-move command and let them fight on their own. It does not really matter what targets they attack, as they are good against everything, buildings and units alike. This means that you are free to focus on microing your other units, especially your priests and chariots, but also your axemen. Meanwhile, the enemy has to micro his entire army if he hopes to be effective (unless he has zero-micro units of his own, but there are not much of them in this game).

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Dudis
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 05:58 AM EDT (US)     13 / 34       
I find elephants overated, and not that powerdul cuz hoplites and ulfsarks make light work of them in large numbers.

Maybe its because I play vanilla?
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 10:10 AM EDT (US)     14 / 34       
Elephants have 15% hack armor in vanilla and 25% in TT, so that may make a difference. But basically, remember what "large numbers" mean. Pop-wise a war elephant is equivalent to 2.5 ulfs or hoplites, but he beats them. Of course, if you deploy 5 ulfs or hops against one elephant you will win, but that is no reasonable comparison, neither pop-wise nor cost-wise. In TT elephants (even without Thoth) are so overpowered that I expect them to beat at least ulfs pop-wise even with those 10% less hack armor that they have in vanilla.

They will not beat Bragi ulfs for obvious reasons. Bragi ulfs are one of the few working counters to elephants.

And again, the zero-micro-trait alone is a big one for the elephants. This is also almost the only reason why it can ever make sense to train jarls instead of RC. Combat-power-wise jarls and RC are almost identical (the edge of jarls is pretty much negligible), but RC are much faster, get a huge bonus vs siege, a minor bonus against archers, and train from cheap longhouses. Jarls are better vs myth units (MU), but since MU do their full attack vs jarls and can use their special attacks against them, even jarls lose to some MU pop-wise. However, RC require decent micro to be effective while jarls are zero-micro-units, so in a battle it is advisable to have a couple jarls with attack-move command and then control another group of RC manually for circumvention and siege/archer defense.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 10:44 AM EDT (US)     15 / 34       
Yes. Simply yes. Fyi, they count as cavalry but still even beat prodromos pop-wise. They only need to fear myth units and a couple of the hardest cav counters.
Massed mainline archers kills elephants like flies with decent micro (well, what don't they kill anyway). Unless your opponent has the econ and can literally spam elephants, focus-firing phants with tox, chariots, arcus or whatever works wonders to drain the eggys resources.

Also FU towers + crenellations push is a great counter to ellies.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 01:23 PM EDT (US)     16 / 34       
Of course, but if you have 4 ellies, and 10 archers (pop-wise comparible, 4x5 and 10x2) ellies win..
Jo93
Mortal
posted 06 October 2008 03:00 PM EDT (US)     17 / 34       
Okay, so the best thing to do with Isis once you DO hit heroic is to start building plenty of migdols and creating camels, chariot archers and elephants (esspecially elephants because they are so powerful, but not solely elephants because then they will get killed a bit more easily) and also continue making a few more of the ordinary foot soldiers.
I am not sure which guide you are referring to, but I suspect it to be outdated. Take care that there are some ancient guides out there, possibly referring to a former patch or even vanilla (non-expansion) AoM. Such guides are no longer valid in many cases. For instance, elephants used to be trash in former patches.
In case you were wondering, I actually do play vanilla. I guess that means the elies are fractionally worse, but not by that much...
Aw, c'mon Jo. Every expert Isis plays FH, so there are thousands of corresponding replays available for download on AOTS. How hard can it be to download a few, watch the BO that the expert is following, and copy it?

Wathing multiple replays of experts building up with Isis should give you a better idea how it is done than any theoretical description.
Funnily enough, I've actually found it quite hard to find some decent recs of Isis playing (because the majority of recs are not the .rec file required for vanilla). I also (for a reason which is probably not particullarly good) dislike downloading and watching recs in games where the Isis player loses, my theory being that if they are not good enough to win, then they obviously didn't play optimally, so it is not worth trying to copy them. I can, however see that that is not particuarally wise because I am sure that there are a LOT of Isis players out there who are better than myself but still lose games...

If anyone can recomend any particularly good Isis recs for vanilla, then I would be incredibly grateful. Of course before I decided to start playing Isis in the first place I downloaded a good few recs and watched them although quite a few of them wouldn't play on my PC for some reason and it's also hard to fing ones which are genuinely from top rated players playing a recent version of the game.

Returned to AoM after about 4 years
Strictly vanilla player... only..
fox7574
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 12:01 PM EDT (US)     18 / 34       
rushin egyptian is tought enough without trying to rush them as egyptian..

free towers and stuff
try contain the egyptian
stop gettin the 2nd gold
try to gain map control
but be careful
if you let him get gold
he will break through your army and most like destroy you in hreoic

NotN00b23
fox7574
Seven_Curd
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 07 October 2008 03:24 PM EDT (US)     19 / 34       
If anyone can recomend any particularly good Isis recs for vanilla, then I would be incredibly grateful. Of course before I decided to start playing Isis in the first place I downloaded a good few recs and watched them although quite a few of them wouldn't play on my PC for some reason and it's also hard to fing ones which are genuinely from top rated players playing a recent version of the game.
dont download on AomH, very few good games. You should try agesanctuary instead.
Chlorhydris
Banned
posted 11 October 2008 06:56 PM EDT (US)     20 / 34       
"Nope either. 6:30 is pretty much the minimum time that can be achieved, but it is not usual. A typical Isis FH is somewhere around 8:30. Time varies depending on map and circumstances."

Oh my word. Is 6:30 really do-able?

Start advancing at 6:30...

or get there by 6:30?
muforseti
Mortal
posted 11 October 2008 07:05 PM EDT (US)     21 / 34       
You can reach heroic about 6:00 with Gaia
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 11 October 2008 09:08 PM EDT (US)     22 / 34       
Same with Odin, I've seen 6:05, but I'm sure under 6 is do-able.
Dudis
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 02:36 AM EDT (US)     23 / 34       
Isis 6 min?

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
"Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 12 October 2008 03:28 AM EDT (US)     24 / 34       
I've heard of an Isis 6:30 that has such poor economy and so few resources on arrival that it's almost never worth doing (and probably only works if the map is perfect for you). 7 to 7:30 is a lot more reasonable, and is usually what you should aim for.
Dudis
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 03:57 AM EDT (US)     25 / 34       
but if you can A/E their base at 6.30 then they are doomed! (Especially if their still in archiac)

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
"Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 12 October 2008 04:02 AM EDT (US)     26 / 34       
Dudis
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 04:08 AM EDT (US)     27 / 34       
True, I can never FH fast enough as Isis, (usually advance at 10 min). However when I was playing rated with a 1700 he told me if you wanna FH you should advance to classic at around 6 min and should have a minimum of 21 villagers (ideal 25) in archiac before you advance.

Is this true?

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
"Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 12 October 2008 04:17 AM EDT (US)     28 / 34       
Arriving in classic at 6 is usually reasonable, assuming you can click heroic the moment your armoury is built, which will get you a heroic in the neighbourhood of 7:30.

On low hunt, it's unlikely you'll be able to make that speed, but it's possible. I know a guy who claims to have a build order that guarantees 7:40 heroic for any map any amount of hunt, but I haven't seen him use it yet, so I don't know.
Dudis
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 04:44 AM EDT (US)     29 / 34       
So the more the hunt the faster u can advance? What about water maps? Also is it true Eggy are better than Norse and Greek in low hunt maps?

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
"Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
Chlorhydris
Banned
posted 12 October 2008 05:00 AM EDT (US)     30 / 34       
"Is it better than A/Eing their vills at 7:15 or 7:30 instead, and actually being able to build a mig and have the eco to use it?"

Although, sending their villagers into accident and emergency at 7:15-7:30 (when I believe A&E may tend to get over crowded, especially on a friday night) does sound quite appealing. I somehow doubt that is what you were referring to.
Will anyone clue me up? Or have I missed something vital?
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