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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Bolting Ulfsark?
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Topic Subject:Bolting Ulfsark?
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agiyr
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 07:51 AM EDT (US)         
OMG!
I'm a new Zues player and I used to play Isis before. So, when I read about Bolt, the guide told me to bolt the ulfsark, specially if it was building a house. I understood that that was the best thing to do with bolt so I started a game against hard (random) and he was Loki. I was gonna save bolt for nidhogg but when I found some huntables and head for him, his ulfsark was bulding a house. I was like "Wtf, let's try it out". I bolted the ulfsark. My advance was about 4:30. At 6:05 he said "how do your civilatzion get the recourses to advance so quickly?". My points was 1100 and his 400. At 10:00 I had a farly good army, about 15 hipps. I attacked his tc. So, When it was down, his points was in 645. He gave up. So, he lost in archaic at 11:00. I can't watch the rec game, dunno y...
Is this a glitch or can bolting the ulfsark be that effective?
AuthorReplies:
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 08:52 AM EDT (US)     1 / 38       
I dunno if bolting ulf can be really that effective, but you should never try strategies on computer, since real players dont act like him. Also, the moderate CPU advances very late, even if you dont bolt his ulf.
agiyr
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 09:16 AM EDT (US)     2 / 38       
I got the CD Key problem and I don't have purchase proof witch they need to give me a new CD Key, so I can't play online. And I was playing against hard, not moderate. Normal adv for him with norse is about 3:45
a_game_a_win
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 10:42 AM EDT (US)     3 / 38       
bolting an ulfsark is not a bad idea especially on water maps (when a dock is so vital). however your situation is unique, as for one, what happens with the cpu almost never happens in a real situation, second bolting an ulfsark will never hurt someone to that extent.
Ironclaw77
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 11:39 AM EDT (US)     4 / 38       
how do your civilatzion get the recourses to advance so quickly?"
You were playing the computer I assume?
In online he would've responded quicker, but yeah bolting the ulfsark is always a good call because it wastes their valuable resources and train time for an early advance.

I R O N C L A W 7 7
Everything that shines ain't always
gonna be gold.
YunSun
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 02:47 PM EDT (US)     5 / 38       
Bolting his uflsark is a good idea especially on water maps
and against Loki on land maps boltings his uflsark is quite good so u can slow down his hesir rush, and bolting his uflsark at the start of the game in general will slow down any norse player so against norse in general it is a pretty good idea
agiyr
Mortal
posted 12 October 2008 03:08 PM EDT (US)     6 / 38       
I'm always using bolt in Archaic/Early classical unless against osiris/loki.
Shanks13
Rogue Agent
posted 12 October 2008 05:16 PM EDT (US)     7 / 38       
I would imagine that bolting an ulfsark at a time a bit later, like when the ulfsark is just getting ready to get to a spot to build a dock, would be the best time to bolt. It ought to play a little more havoc with the build order and waste more time, versus bolting an ulf right off, and having the guy just que up another one and losing less time.

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 13 October 2008 04:05 AM EDT (US)     8 / 38       
Bolting a dockbuilder ulf and bolting an ulf right off is the same, Shanks. Remember that in order to bolt an ulf you need to have LOS on him. By the time your scout has found his ulf he should already be busy making a dock.

However, this is why any decent Norse double ulfs vs Zeus, using both ulfens to make his initial dock. You can try to bolt one and harass the other with your scout, but I find that unless the map is Highland and Zeus' scout is extremely lucky to find the ulfs so early, the dock can be completed first. If anything, the dock will be very close to completion, so the remaining ulf can complete it despite the scout harassment by dancing samba on the right mouse button.

A surefire way would be enclosing both dockbuilder ulfs by an incomplete wall, but this is too much of an effort for too little gain IMHO.

Agiyr, I figure the reason you were so successful with your bolt vs that CPU is the following:

The CPU followed its usual buildup script, planning to make a new house when it is running low on pop. Since you bolted its dockbuilder ulf, it ran completely out of pop. It probably reacted by ordering a new ulf, but this ulf could never spawn due to lack of pop, so the CPU remained at 15 pop for the rest of the game, effectively being jammed. In other words, you exploited an AI script weakness without being aware. This should make it pretty obvious that this kind of success is not even nearly to be expected against a human player. Humans usually make the first house earlier and at a better location, and even if they do not, the least thing they would do is converting a vill and completing the house (although that alone would already mean a big drawback).

Contradicting what others said above, I would like to emphasize that it normally does not pay to bolt an ulf unless you catch him building a dock or temple alone (or early enough so that you can prevent the dock/temple by harassing the other ulf). I always laugh at players that randomly bolt my scouting ulf when they see it. Replacing that ulf is not much effort even in archaic age, and that bolt power could have hurt me much more later on. Good players usually use the bolt power to bolt the free enemy myth unit when they are playing vs gods that cannot get Son of Osiris or Nidhogg. Bolting the enemy free valkyrie is much more effective than bolting a scouting ulf. Most Norses - including me - usually get another ulf before advancing to classical anyway.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 13 October 2008 11:43 AM EDT (US)     9 / 38       
If you watch recs of King (was top vanilla player for long time, and occasionally unretires and goes straight to top spot) he often bolts an enemy vill very early in the game.

Why? I'd assume it's to throw them off their build order, and even though they can easily adjust, it gives King the slightest economic advantage and he takes advantage of it when he rushes them, and his micromanagement seems to allow him to win every battle.

Would this strategy work for anyone besides King? Eh, probably not. I've tried using his BOs and his strats but I don't have the skill to back it up. Also, keep in mind this was vanilla so there was no free MU.
agiyr
Mortal
posted 13 October 2008 01:23 PM EDT (US)     10 / 38       
I don't see the very good point with bolt more than bolting SoO/Nidhogg. Sure, I've once bolted an einhejar resulting in him losing 2 longhouses and 1 tower, but I would really like to read a Zues bolt guide and an eco/military micromanagement guide, but I can't find any.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 13 October 2008 02:06 PM EDT (US)     11 / 38       
Dont overestimiate bolt, its IMO the best archaic GP, but its still an ARCHAIC gp, so it doesnt compare to, say, restoration (with no SoO or niddhog)
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 13 October 2008 10:50 PM EDT (US)     12 / 38       
IYO is right. Prosperity is easily better because it is excellent in all situations. If you argue with this then you don't know what you are talking about, lol, but most likely you just forgot that is exists as it is just taken for granted.
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 14 October 2008 00:51 AM EDT (US)     13 / 38       
well.. ok but it is at least one of the better GPs in archaic.
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 14 October 2008 02:51 AM EDT (US)     14 / 38       
I even contest that. IMHO all Atlantean archaic GPs are better than bolt, especially with their re-usability. But I also do not see how e.g. Loki's spy power would be less valuable than bolt. Reconnaissance is an extremely valuable thing in RTS games.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 14 October 2008 11:13 AM EDT (US)     15 / 38       
Bolting an dock building ulf is IMO better then to know where his villies are gathering (which you can even know without spy because of good scouting)
Shanks13
Rogue Agent
posted 14 October 2008 05:56 PM EDT (US)     16 / 38       
Bolting an dock building ulf is IMO better then to know where his villies are gathering (which you can even know without spy because of good scouting)
I'd rather have the spy, I think. I know where he's hunting with no effort, and I might be able to tell when he's transitioning to farming. Or, I could mark his goldmine and totally screw his early economy by bringing down that whole operation. Y'know... Something more lasting than bolt...

Arus_II
Mortal
posted 15 October 2008 01:11 AM EDT (US)     17 / 38       
OR you can bring down his ulf when he nearly finished his dock, while he is sitting on a large pile of wood for fidhing ships.
And you can know where his gold mining op. is, because of your kataskopos (like I said).
HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 15 October 2008 01:15 AM EDT (US)     18 / 38       
I've gotten shafted pretty badly by having my kataskopos bolted very early on oasis before finding any goats. That was mostly chance, though. If it had died even 30 seconds or a minute later I probably would have found enough to get by without any trouble.

GPs like bolt tend to have a bigger effect the more aggressively you're playing. If you bolt an ulfsark or villager early on, your gains may be pretty small (mere seconds), and the longer you wait to press the advantage, the more that gap narrows just due to random chance (villagers bumping while walking, half second of idle TC time because a food gatherer drops food a moment late, that sort of thing). If you play very aggressively you can capitalize on that small advantage while it is still an advantage.

If you're planning on raiding/booming, maybe bolting a vill or ulf won't make as much of a difference as saving it to bolt a hero/myth in the first major battle. If you're planning on athena rushing, maybe slowing the enemy down by 9 seconds is all it takes to make the difference between being repelled and overpowering them with the rush.

[This message has been edited by HailToTheOboe (edited 10-15-2008 @ 01:21 AM).]

DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 15 October 2008 03:08 AM EDT (US)     19 / 38       
Then again, when you are Athena rushing, the enemy not having his free MU because you bolted it can win you the game just the same.
Bolting an dock building ulf is IMO better then to know where his villies are gathering (which you can even know without spy because of good scouting)
What about bolting a dock-building ulf with the enemy still completing the dock because he was smart enough to see it coming and used 2 ulfs in the first place? An opponent that builds his dock with only one man against Zeus is a fool and cannot be considered the normal case. The bolt power has the indirect effect of forcing him to start with a second ulf here, but in return he gets his dock faster and generally has better early scouting (unless you waste your bolt on one of them without being able to prevent the dock).

Meanwhile, if the Loki runs his initial ulf over to your side right at game start he stands a good chance to spot your hunting party before it moves too far apart from your base. By scouting one of your hunters he makes sure that you cannot hunt safely later on, because he will always know where your hunters are. Even if you realize that, you do not know which of your hunting vills - or perhaps their cart - the spy power is on, so all you could do is replacing all of them with vills and cart from your gold/forest in classical age. You cannot do that right in archaic, because this early you do not have enough woodies and gold miners yet (goldies are out of the question for Norse anyway because they are typically dwarves), so you need to do this exchange later on, when your hunters are already further out of your base. Marching so many vills so far across the map without gathering just to exchange them means a huge loss of early resources. Not something you could afford doing when you can expect a Loki rush.

Also, what Shanks said applies.

No, I do not see the spy power being anyhow worse than bolt.
And you can know where his gold mining op. is, because of your kataskopos (like I said).
Your kataskopos will always make it known to you where he is mining at? This is news to me. I wonder why I manage to get away with unprotected mining so often then... I mean, you do not need a kataskopos for this (that Loki does not have anyway). Any 2-pop-unit would do, from ulfsark to pegasus. Of course, if you want to keep multiple gold mines covered that way, you will have to invest 2 pop per mine, weakening your main army in the process. With the spy power, you know exactly when and where he is mining (or perhaps trying to grab a new TC), and you do not even have to invest any pop or money for it.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 15 October 2008 11:15 AM EDT (US)     20 / 38       
You dont have to stay with every gold mine, if you know where hes going to do his 2nd gold, you can scout that when they started, and you will know where he is mining. Of course spy is better at this, but what I mean is that you can know where his gold vills are and still use bolt.
ephestion
Mortal
posted 15 October 2008 11:06 PM EDT (US)     21 / 38       
The early bolt only works when your trying to out rush the opponent. There is no point in bolting the the ulfsark at the start and then going fast Mythic. All you do is throw away their build order, you delay their classical advance by 30secs and you drain a little from their rush econ. So you need to rush to make it effective. Otherwise its not worth doing. Also i would probably keep my bolt for Nidhogg rather than try an out rush Loki.


"To love Christ -means not to be a hireling, not to look upon a noble life as an enterprise or trade, but to be a true benefactor and to do everything only for the sake of love for God." —St John Chrysostom
"When one returns to the Greek; it is like going into a garden of lilies out of some, narrow and dark house." -Oscar Wilde
"I don't think I'm smarter than you because you believe in God. I think I'm smarter than you because you're absolutely nuts. -Stormraider responding to me."
BlackSun88
Banned
posted 16 October 2008 00:53 AM EDT (US)     22 / 38       
niddhogg sucks, dont bother saving bolt, u will have odyseeus with blood of olympus prolly

Bolting ulf early is almost always the best option vs norse
LS_tmac911
Banned
posted 16 October 2008 00:55 AM EDT (US)     23 / 38       
it's worth it to save bolt for nidhogg just to see the looooook on theeeeir face
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 16 October 2008 00:57 AM EDT (US)     24 / 38       
Is it useful to bolt his scout when greek?
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 16 October 2008 02:29 AM EDT (US)     25 / 38       
if you know where hes going to do his 2nd gold
Do you? Personally, I do not always mine at the closest mine to my base. Mining farther away decreases the chances of being discovered.
Bolting ulf early is almost always the best option vs norse
Fact is that according to my experience (some 10,000 games total), good opponents bolt my free myth, while weak ones bolt my scouting ulf. Except of course in dockbuilding or templebuilding situations.

Remember that a replacement ulfsark takes 9 seconds to train. That sure does not make much of a difference, not even in a rush situation.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 16 October 2008 02:32 AM EDT (US)     26 / 38       
mispost, edited out

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)

[This message has been edited by DeathAndPain (edited 10-16-2008 @ 02:33 AM).]

agiyr
Mortal
posted 16 October 2008 12:21 PM EDT (US)     27 / 38       
So, comparing the facts is must be better to bolt the Myth unit/greek hero unless you get a atlantean citizen.

1 Vill: By bolting it, you will make your opponent lose about 200 recources (counted from the time you bolt it to the time you rush) + 50 for the cost if the vill is new and 10 more because of your idle tc seconds (you can call it idle because it creates something that vill die when created). About 260 recouces. Like 4 hoplites or 2 hipps.

1 Ulfsark: 9 second tc time, probably not any more recources because you will probably have something to get food from. Goats is the worst thing, giveing you -150 per goat, but the difference between farming and taking goat is so little that that wont be so much, specially not in heroic/mythic.

1 citizen: Well, about 260x2,5. 650 recources. A bit better than killing a myth unit .

The myth unit: Probably more valuable than 2 hipps.



This calculation is just written from the mind, I havn't checked out the exact values IG, but I think it's correct.
DragonQ
SC2H Seraph
posted 16 October 2008 12:38 PM EDT (US)     28 / 38       
You can't bolt Citizens.

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back.
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
But you can't take the sky from me...
muforseti
Mortal
posted 16 October 2008 12:42 PM EDT (US)     29 / 38       
Just bolt your opponent, then you are free to mop up his unguided units.
i r n00b
Banned
posted 16 October 2008 03:43 PM EDT (US)     30 / 38       
mispost, edited out
then how come i still see it
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