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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » Zeus vs Isis discussion, Lorenzo thinks Zeus > Isis?
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Topic Subject:Zeus vs Isis discussion, Lorenzo thinks Zeus > Isis?
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Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 05 July 2009 11:10 PM EDT (US)         
The following does not exactly support my argument that Eggy cf is very good but anyways, for the sake of activity around here and some intelligent discusion (this being key so don't post if you're just trolling or have no idea what you're talking about) I'll give this a go:

On another forum (the mG clan forums don't know if I'm allowed to post the link here...) Lorenzo was discussing Zeus vs Isis and I think he made some valid points...and I'd like to see what you guys have to say on the matter. I'll quote the post here (I don't think this is posting anything in name of a banned forumer seeing as this is open for all to see on another site):
I played vs Magyar today and got raped 4x by same strat, Athena fb (sure I win 1 game but that's because it's Midgard and he can't push me off hunt, only gold11). Tbh that's not very different from Isis FH...




(Before I start ranting, I would like to say that I have not tried sub 5:00 priestrushes so I do not know if this works. Perhaps a fast priest rush would prevent him from fb'ing and screws his food income or resource income in general. On Savannah I did do something like a 5:00 but he advanced around that time as well and jason stopped it (and would stop 90% of all priestrushes anyway), otherwise Bolt on Pharaoh would have stopped it 100% and Odysseus would have too. I actually opted for a sub 5:00 priestrush on savannah, but was unable to advance fast enough with a monu/pickaxe/flood of the nile in archaic and I don't think I can win if I don't get those in Archaic. Anyway, conclusion: I did not try a sub 5:00 priestrush so I am not certain if this would work, but I don't think it would)




1a) First the maps, which are almost certainly in Zeus' favor... If both hunt is in the middle (which, technically, is fair) you won't be able to hunt it after Archaic but the Zeus will, and he will get your food on top of this.

1b) Then there is the starting goldmine issue. If your mine is very forward and the Zeus' mine is very forward (once again, technically fair) the Zeus doesn't really face any problems whereas you do... This is why you will be at a disadvantage resource-wise.

1c) Then, there is the problem of not having hunt in LOS and finding your hunt at, say, 1:00 - 1:30. You gather from your chickens or berries, spot the hunt and move towards it. For the sake of the argument the Zeus player faces the exact same scenario (once again, making it 'fair') and moves to the hunting at the same time. The Zeus will still advance around 5:00 and push you off. Now you have 90 seconds less hunting time because you weren't hunting from the start, while the Zeus faces no problems with this because he can continue hunting...

1d) As for the starting towers, if you don't have a good tower covering your first gold (or just bad tower placement in general, like too far from the TC or towers that are too far back/protect useless areas) you are bothered, if the Zeus has bad tower placement he is not bothered. However, to be fair: the Zeus will be attacking you thus inevitably fighting in building fire at times, so I guess this helps even it out.

2a) You can't defend your starting hunt effectively, so you will always be forced to leave your hunting. I think we can all agree on this, Zeus has bolt, Jason and a free myth unit to push you off hunt and you will have a Pharaoh, free MU and some Priests (assuming you advance at the same time as him, which is usually not the case).

2b) You can't fight his army effectively with Classical units because of the Toxotes. Lets say he makes Hippikons + Toxotes + 2 heroes, it's impossible to beat this combination with Classical units (including Pharaoh). When you group units, they automatically form a formation with the archers at the back. So when his army is moving forward, his melee units minus Odysseus (Hippikons, Hoplites, free Minotaur) will be at the front and his Toxotes will be at the back. That's no problem because he wants the Toxotes to attack the front units. You, however, facing the same scenario with the ranged units at the back and the melee units at the front, will want your ranged units (slingers) to attack his ranged units. IIRC Slingers and Toxotes are both 16 range (not that it matters for the following argument though). Assuming a battle commences, there will be 32-33 range between your Slingers and his Toxotes in the worst case scenario, making it pretty impossible for your Slingers to hit his Tox as they would actually have to:

1) move past the melee units of your opponent, which will have to be from the side because the Slingers can’t walk through the melee units battling at the front
2) be micro’ed manually on the Tox, as they attack the closest units which will still be the hops

Not to forget, the time your Slingers are moving they are not attacking, whereas the opponent’s Tox are attacking (off-topic: I see this mistake made in lots of Norse vs Atty games too where in a 115/115 battle the Norse runs around with 15 RC to get to the Turmae, not realizing that’s basically 15 idle RC while the Turmae are attacking… then wondering why they lose the battle 11). This makes it very hard for you to win the battle. To make it even worse, I did a test in the editor: 15 Slingers and 15 Axemen vs 15 Hoplites and 15 Toxotes. I put every Axeman right in front of every Hoplite, so that each Axeman will fight 1 Hoplite (not realistic, I know, but bare with me). Behind those 15 Axemen were 15 Slingers, and behind the 15 Hoplites were 15 Toxotes. At the start I paused the game and ordered every Slinger to attack the Tox behind the Hoplite, so each 1 Slinger was firing at 1 Tox. Also, I will stop capitalizing the letters of the units now because it gets annoying. This is the best possible scenario you can possibly imagine for hop/tox vs axe/slingers, you have to agree with that, yet hop/tox still won the battle. Now add a 5million hp odysseus and a 2k hp Jason to this (and a pharaoh on the eggy’s side and some more units, you can even have like +10 pop or even +15 pop over the Zeus with your pharaoh and you’ll still lose) and you die. Don’t forget restoration, btw, which will automatically win one battle. Even if you went Anubis, which doesn’t seem very smart to begin with, restoration will still win the battle when plague of serpents is cast.

Now if he makes hipps + tox it’s even worse because spears don’t get enough bonus damage vs cav without horus techs (10% bonus I believe), if he makes hipps + tox + hoplites, well… I don’t know what unit combo is best vs. this, just seems hopeless for the eggy11. If you have bad first gold (like really forward and you don’t have/can’t defend your ‘gold’ tower well) you basically lose the game right there.

2c) As the game continues and you’re struggling to survive, you’ll notice that his hoplite:toxotes ratio will go from 50+:50- to 50-:50+. This makes sense, as:

1) Toxotes are easier to produce as they cost wood
2) You will be killing off his hops faster as they are melee and in front whereas tox are in the back and ranged
3) He will usually be using AQ
4) Hunt will run out, slowing his food income thus his hop production (optional/debatable)

You ‘suffer’ the same faith. On paper this gives you the advantage, but in practice this is actually/usually worse than a 50:50 hop:tox and axe:slings army. Yes, 20 slings + pharaoh (ye, being slightly naïve here with the + pharaoh) 20 tox, but 20 tox with 3-5 units in front (worst case scenario would be 2 heroes) will beat 20 slings + pharaoh + whatever unit you would like to add as the slings don’t mow down the units in front of the tox but the tox will mow everything down in front of your slings. I actually tested 20 tox vs a sphinx and 20 slings vs a medium hippikon and the results are really really really depressing 11 (I won’t spoil the surprise, go test it. Slight note: you might also want to test it with decreased numbers, as the true broken imbalanced retardedness becomes much more clear with smaller numbers, e.g. there is not much diff in time between 100 tox vs son of Osiris and 100 slings vs a hippikon) now imagine oddyseus in front.

3a) So, logically, the best thing to do is FH, which might not be easy on some maps to begin with, especially combined with pressure but to be really honest I’m able to get heroic just fine on 90% of the maps so lets ignore that, it’s probably also a bit harder to fb with Athena on some maps. The next problem: you can’t kill or put a dent in his army with A+E because he’ll just run through a gate and by the time you’ve destroyed the walls his army is gone, only to return after A+E with 115/115 and (possibly) resto. Actually, in the Savannah game I anticipated his use of a gate pretty well and have minions on both side of the gate and I really kill a lot of units, but I still lost pretty easily. Yes, perhaps making an outside Migdol at my 2nd gold during A+E would have been the better choice, but I didn’t know where he had walled (and that’s not due to lack of obelisks, if I had them he would have destroyed them anyway) and where his army was (contrary to popular belief I do not maphack 11) so I decided to make a migdol at home first and make CA.

3b) Now there are watermaps… I don’t think it’s very easy to defend vs. any Athena rush with even neutral gold, because you just can’t keep your gold tower up (really, check the Midgard game vs Magyar: I make 2 or 3 layers of walls with a house in between and he still bashes through while I’m constantly firing with my Pharaoh. I should have lost that game as well, btw, but an extremely poor use of resto and poor micro by Magyar (don’t know why you idiots suck off him so much for his “godly micro”, last time I checked making walls and putting hero on MU wasn’t micro-intensive11, check the game on Alfheim where it’s Zeus vs Poseidon and check Adhafang’s comment in the game then watch the game and go to the 12 min he described, tell me where you see micro plz, are you blind?. But I guess it’s just the normal thing to do these days, praise Magyar for his non-existent godly micro, flame me for my non-existent maphack and give Hellsravage expert staff for his non-existent skill. But I digress. A lot) made me win the game (I bet you had to read back to see what that ‘made me win the game’ was about because your brain lacked working memory. That is because you’re stupid, btw).

Action helped me a lot with a potential counter to this fb Athena walling which I will discuss later, but I have my doubts.

Going to bed, cheers.

P.S. - this is only about Zeus' Classical, haven't even talked about his Mythic, underworld passage, map control, 4v2 TCs scenarios that might occur (and will most of the time due to map control) etc.
Here are the games he is refering to:

Zeus vs Isis on Mediterranean

Zeus vs Isis on Midgard

Zeus vs Isis on Savannah

There is also a 4th game of the same match up on Oasis where 2 of Lorenzo's starting zebras spawn off the map, another huge disadvantage that nothing can be done about (I do not have this rec).

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 07-06-2009 @ 09:13 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
buppy
Mortal
(id: pubby8)
posted 06 July 2009 00:04 AM EDT (US)     1 / 37       
Yes.

54.33 (repeating of course) chance that zeus wins on every map in the random tier, exclude anatolia.




Then again, I think the more you over-analyze this game, the worse you'll play.

[This message has been edited by pubby8 (edited 07-06-2009 @ 00:07 AM).]

Marclo40
Mortal
posted 06 July 2009 02:32 AM EDT (US)     2 / 37       
Face it dude, Eggys just cant classical fight a Greek, especially zeus
classical fighting is for vs eggy only and axeman army vs loki

If you start a lan game, set up 2 ai players, click observer mode and watch, you will see that zeus always wins on standard
there is a reason, because he wins on every classical fight, but that's the way it works, Ai vs Ai , winner of first couple battles wins game

that doesn't mean that zeus is better, zeus is weak because of his predictability, you know he is always going to have lots of hops and myth units
I guess the only possible option is a FH
But don't worry about zeus, Hades seems to be a more popular choice now, and he is challenging in a whole new way
Eddy_Current
Mortal
posted 06 July 2009 03:52 AM EDT (US)     3 / 37       
Good post :thumbs up:
Nirwanda
Mortal
posted 06 July 2009 06:46 AM EDT (US)     4 / 37       
Wow, that was a great post. And he's pinpointing all the details I've spoken of.
1) Toxotes are easier to produce as they cost wood
I made a whole thread about the food/wood imbalances prior to late heroic, remember? Most of the "vets" on this forum did not agree with me. I'm glad to finally get support from an expert level player.


The slinger vs tox problem isn't new. Really, that can be said for many counter units.
What people forget to factor in is the speed of the unit and the range it has to close in to be effective. This is of outmost importance, and slingers have this problem.

I mean, even in the hands of the best players the hard counter units are often ineffective. Too often you see a bunch of slingers, peltasts or whatever hanging around in the back fireing at the melee units, doing what? 3 damage/projectile - While the tox just stands there fireing 8 damage/projectiles like crazy. And when you actually decide to close in on the tox (or flank them, as in RC) they simply run back to their camp, only leaving you with a few hits in their backs. Then they re-group, meet you up in the open and the scenario begins again. Even when you do get a clear shot, it is extremely hard to hit the tox effectively; Say you have 12 slingers against 12 tox. Now the slingers do a fat bonus damage against the tox, and I think 3 slingshots will kill one on top of my head. As for the tox, he needs perhaps six shots to kill one of your slingers.

So in order to maximize this, you would need to have 4 groups of slingers hitting 4 different tox (think: centaur 2+2 villager sniping). This is pretty much humanly impossible. And if you don't group attack like this your actual counter benefit won't matter, because your slings will usually attack the same tox, or even his front army if you don't mirco at all (doing 3 damage/hit).

To summarize I dare to say that ES failed with the archer counter units in this game. None of them really fills their real purpose:

Slingers: Hanging out in the back of the army, fireing against a melee wall or trying to crawl around, only to lose firepower for 5+ seconds and then have your opponents army retreat.

Peltast: Same deal.

Turmae: Has anyone ever even really used these as archer counters? Instead they're quick, early raiders which costs cheap wood.

To fix these flawed units, they would have to get some real re-work done. Something in the lines of:

20+ range
5+ speed
Way more pierce armor
Fast "first-hit" fire, higher reload time but a small splash effect (think: manticore)


I'd say the best counter archer really is Huskarl, and oddly enough it's a unit with mainline stats basically. That should tell you something of the value of ranged archer counters like the slinger.

It's the same with spearmen or ulfsarks helplessy chasing RC or Oranos turmae.

Another classical example is axemen vs hersir raiding. You spot the raiders, move over and they simply run away. No decent opponent will do open battle with an army countering his, he will simply move around and hit you somewhere else, or even your buildings. And those you hardly damage yourself, because you're not mainline and do like 4 damage/hit, not to mention the 5 years it would take to actually move over to his base.

As for the test he did, I was actually about to perform one myself to feed the other thread. I'm glad he saved me the trouble and confirmed my suspicions.


Great post.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

Gandalf - JRR Tolkein. The Fellowship of the Ring
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 06 July 2009 06:50 AM EDT (US)     5 / 37       
Yes, I've had problems with zeus, especially on a water map: he makes loads of hops, makes me believe he water fights so I spend gold on ships, and just attacks my towers and after that my TC and then he water fights...
Even mercs can't kill hops fast enough.
LikeTHAT
Mortal
posted 06 July 2009 07:30 AM EDT (US)     6 / 37       
i would love to see lorenzo's zeus vs magyar isis 11
a_game_a_win
Mortal
posted 06 July 2009 08:25 PM EDT (US)     7 / 37       
Yes, when I use to play Zeus more competitively, Isis wasn't such a chore to beat. Cease Fire could kill a/e (you know it is easy to tell when it is going to be cast) and the extra multiplier vs. buildings with his hops made the first migdol easy to take down.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 06 July 2009 08:45 PM EDT (US)     8 / 37       
So no one actually has any ideas? 11
outsky2008
Mortal
posted 06 July 2009 09:29 PM EDT (US)     9 / 37       
Spoeft vs Magyar classical fight, spear, slinger vs hip and tox. Spoeft sent his slingers before his spears, and fought really aggressively. However, this is Oasis, which favors Isis farming.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 06 July 2009 10:44 PM EDT (US)     10 / 37       
Yes, we've all seen that rec11. Magyar won't be fooled twice like that for one and Spoeft actually got quite lucky...and Magyar did nnot do Athena rush this game. On top of that Spoeft had much better gold than you usually get iirc. Magyar did not do mass wall for a/e in this game either =\

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 07-06-2009 @ 10:46 PM).]

HailToTheOboe
Bitten by a radioactive ostrich
posted 07 July 2009 00:19 AM EDT (US)     11 / 37       
So no one actually has any ideas? 11
In vanilla, a/e usually does the job

If he does fancy carp with walls, you a/e his vills instead, build mig by TC and spam chariots. MAYBE make a few axemen on the way to heroic. But that's because you can up a little faster (save 80 food and 50 gold!) and A/E is stronger.

I'm afraid I've got nothing useful to offer for TT.
outsky2008
Mortal
posted 07 July 2009 00:31 AM EDT (US)     12 / 37       
Spoeft often does similar strat vs Poseidon. Yeah, but athena rush is different, especially on high hunt.

I remember lorenzo also said Thor>Isis before, Spoeft said Loki counters Isis quite well, and other said poseidon counters Isis as well, then we may need to reconsider Isis as the strongest god, even though she remains to be the lamest one due to phants and mercs spam.

How does lorenzo's skill compared to Spoeft, magyar, nigam, ghostlake, and magic? I heard his skill fluctuate quite much.

Anyway, most people in this forum cannot solve lorenzo's puzzle.

[This message has been edited by outsky2008 (edited 07-07-2009 @ 01:25 AM).]

Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 07 July 2009 01:36 AM EDT (US)     13 / 37       
He is just as good as Nigam and Spoeft (spoeft much worse now), Mag is good but not as good, Magic does not come close11 (basically quoted from him11). And yes, he seems to play lazy when the match doesn't count and not even as close to as good in advanced games sadly enough

If Lorenzo is in absolute prime with all concentration, rated game, takes opponent seriously, and the game is for money or something, he will not lose imo lol. He is simply a machine when playing at his very best.
Dudis
Mortal
posted 07 July 2009 02:15 AM EDT (US)     14 / 37       
Bring back lorenzo!

"Quotes are nothing but inspiration for the uninspired"
72% of people agree with me when I say 28% of people disagree with me.
"I'll remove the clit at the end" - Rotaretilbo
" I just snapped off my penis thinking it was a nk" - BeezleBub
"Im a transexual STFU" - Briguy
a_game_a_win
Mortal
posted 07 July 2009 09:32 AM EDT (US)     15 / 37       
Spoeft said Loki counters Isis quite well, and other said poseidon counters Isis as well,
Very true. Poseidon's mass calvary were beasty monsters and took down any classical fight, so A/E and midgol was Isis only chance.

And with Loki his Hersir raiding kills all Egyptians quite easily.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 07 July 2009 09:57 AM EDT (US)     16 / 37       
Not really. An Isis of equal skill to the Loki should win if they play on at the same skill in the game and the map is equal. Nevertheless Loki Hersir raiding is a very good strategy vs Eggy as long as you don't lose units left and right like some idiot Loki players do and then wonder why they lose.

Still, some maps like Savannah, a really bad Tundra, sometimes Oasis if you get shit food are just impossible vs Possy, Zeus, a Hades who notices the map is good for him, Loki I guess, and Atty; that is, if your opponent doesn't screw up big time.
buppy
Mortal
(id: pubby8)
posted 09 July 2009 02:46 PM EDT (US)     17 / 37       
Casting ceasefire (or anouther GP blocker like eclipse) before isis can cast eclipse always makes me lulz.
Braza
Mortal
posted 09 July 2009 07:20 PM EDT (US)     18 / 37       
Today i accidentally clicked eclipse when playing isis. Still won game though xD
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 09 July 2009 09:04 PM EDT (US)     19 / 37       
I had a bagel for breakfast
Arus_II
Mortal
posted 10 July 2009 04:33 AM EDT (US)     20 / 37       
Say goodbye to the discussion...
A_PunK
Mortal
posted 10 July 2009 07:46 AM EDT (US)     21 / 37       
NEVER! Anyway I like how this discussion has cropped up. I also like how AoMH isn't full of people like RTG. I may quote some of his greatest "ZEUS IS A BS GODES!" posts soon.

ow
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 10 July 2009 09:26 AM EDT (US)     22 / 37       
Or you could suggest some of your ideas how to beat this Athena fb strategy from Zeus as Isis...although RTG quotes do sound appealing 11. Braza you still on those two accounts?
TTK_GeneralNoob
Mortal
posted 15 July 2009 00:50 AM EDT (US)     23 / 37       
Lorenzo got spanked xD maygar is one OP player... What is his nationality? I'm guessing he's asian lol

"The next turn I attacked those that had been attatched, fiendishly fracturing the friendly faction fraction"
-Wartrain.

"Why not do the exciting thing and sit back, boom to a rag and use flaming weapons? - Who would have thought a Thor player could show this level of innovation?"
-Vagabond Tom.

Sam_Ham
Mortal
posted 15 July 2009 04:33 AM EDT (US)     24 / 37       
magyar is hungarian


Sometimes you need to scare the lambs,
tell tales of evil bad wolves.
Because if there is nothing to fear,
they might think for themselves.
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 15 July 2009 09:26 AM EDT (US)     25 / 37       
Like all Magyars are 11
skizm
Mortal
posted 15 July 2009 10:08 AM EDT (US)     26 / 37       
Watched 'em. Noob did get spanked, but the articulated civ-advantages in the first post seemed to arise in the process. Magyar was outplayed once, but in any case I could depict only minor mishaps from his opposition, none that should be game-ending on an even keel. Could a more skilled player suggest adjustments other than playing a perfect game? Maybe that's what it takes to beat Mag.

Btw, though never a mod, I could totally steady Lorenzo's bouts of insolence for posts like the above. They, and his unique playstyle make him a favorite player of mine. =p

Thanks for posting, Major.

<3 this game ~
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 15 July 2009 03:58 PM EDT (US)     27 / 37       
A sig worthy post Skizm

And no problem lol, it didn't require any effort11
DeathAndPain
Mortal
posted 15 July 2009 10:44 PM EDT (US)     28 / 37       
LOL I find it pretty ridiculous that Lorenzo whines about imbalance just because a Zeus player has shown up who can beat his Isis. This is immature noob behavior, and as far as I am concerned, I do think that posting a large chunk of text written by a banned person means posting on behalf of a banned person.

Without being a Isis vs Zeus specialist, experts have been pretty unanimous for many years that Isis is not weaker than Zeus, and just because Lorenzo cannot take a couple losses I am not going to question this belief. In other words, just because Lorenzo cannot beat it that does not mean that it cannot be beaten. Lorenzo has just run into a player better than him and cannot deal with the fact, hence he blames it on imbalance.

I still remember his first game vs me after which he blamed his defeat on a couple more giraffes on my side of the map even though back then he was already like 100-200 points higher than me in rr...

AoM player base has become thin, and as a logical consequence there are less elite players. I am not going to warm up the old and fruitless discussion whether former experts are better or worse than current ones, but as a matter of fact elite emerges from masses, and there are less good players to work out new and powerful strategies today than in former times.

Summary: Lorenzo got his ass handed to himself and whined about it. No reason to believe in any op-ness of Zeus, or to quote his whining in a forum where he has been banned for good reason.

Darkness is a state of mind
Valor is the contempt of Death and Pain. (Tacitus)
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. (Piet Hein)
Major_Rackham
Banned
posted 15 July 2009 10:54 PM EDT (US)     29 / 37       
Watch the games and then read the article to see that he is not entirely whining about Zeus being more OP than Isis, but rather that Mag's Athena rush strat or Possy style raiding on maps like Savannah, Oasis, and Ghost Lake are certainly more likely to result in a win for him than for Lorenzo. There was simply not much he could do =\

P.S. Going to the mG site, it would also be beneficial for you to read the resulting thread from Lorenzo's argument and see that many people try to come up with valid strats that can counter these strats that Mag uses but almost all would probably not work. Action managed to come up with a good strategy that is worth a try and this is what Lorenzo plans to try next AFAIK.

P.P.S. This is definitely not "posting in the name of a banned member" as the article Lorenzo wrote is open for all to see on another site. I am simply educating those who visit this forum as chances are they would not see his article as most of the people here do not ever visit the mG forums.

[This message has been edited by Major_Rackham (edited 07-15-2009 @ 11:02 PM).]

Sam_Ham
Mortal
posted 16 July 2009 04:11 AM EDT (US)     30 / 37       
Summary: Lorenzo got his ass handed to himself and whined about it. No reason to believe in any op-ness of Zeus, or to quote his whining in a forum where he has been banned for good reason.
Pretty funny reply, try reading next time. Lucky no-one who bothered to will take you seriously.

He is not whining in any sense of the word, he is setting out all the problems he has facing Athena rush as Isis and basically asking for opinions on possible counters (i.e. Action's suggestion). He never even says "Zeus > Isis" at all (you can't effectively Athena rush Isis on all maps) or claim that Zeus is OP in general.

I know you will conveniently not reply to this, because if there's one immature noob in this thread it's clearly you.


Sometimes you need to scare the lambs,
tell tales of evil bad wolves.
Because if there is nothing to fear,
they might think for themselves.
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