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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Strategy and General Discussion » RM vs DM Who shall be the victor?
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Topic Subject:RM vs DM Who shall be the victor?
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deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 04:22 PM EDT (US)         
No Flaming or Trolling. Only a peaceful debate.

Which should the ES people concentrate more on? There will probably be problems making a game that balances both types of games equally.

So which is better, RM or DM? Lets have a fun little debate.

I say RM(random map).
Requires more economic management abilities.


The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
AuthorReplies:
Stone_Giant
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 07:14 PM EDT (US)     31 / 85       
You'd think someone like me would read through this post and give a long topical answer wouldn't you?

Wrong!

I'm going to say RM, I could go on.....I'll just say I liked it better.

and I suck at DM

Stone_Giant

Imperialarc
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 07:14 PM EDT (US)     32 / 85       
I would say RM because of economy.

But I like DM for its emphasis on military. But RM is very important(even though I was never good at it ).

Cloudchaser_Eagle
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 07:14 PM EDT (US)     33 / 85       
Yamato, u can't say u've truly experienced DM until u play on Arabia and Green Arabia as well. That's where the majority of DMs take place. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that seizing territory in RM isn't important, it is. But in DM, it isn't important. It's imperative. And u say that u hate "talking out of ignorance" arguments. The best way to prevent said arguments is to not talk out of ignorance yourself.

Vlad, maybe u need to go read the DM articles at MFO, too. In the "First 5 Minutes" article, in one of the demo games, the player ran out of gold in five minutes, literally. U can't just say "Ok, I can click that button 30 more times, no matter." The tab for those units and buildings runs up VERY fast. You just can't have that kind of attitude while playing a DM, it'll be your undoing.

And to dispell another false DM myth: BUILD ORDERS IN DM ARE NOT AUTOMATIC!!! NEITHER IS BUILDING UNITS!!! *puts megaphone away* U have to decide what buildings to use (I rarely build stables cuz I often play Goths), where to put them, and for what purpose (what units do u want?). Different buildings and units are needed for different circumstances.

Another article u should read, Vlad, is the Sam Deathwalker interview. In there, he says that all civs 'cept Vikings and Japanese are definitely viable DM civs. And it's far more than just Franks, Huns, Goths. Turks, Persians, Saracens, Celts, Mayans, and Brits are also popular DM civs. If u think in RM u debate about civs all the time, in DM, it's far more frequent. And what I mean is that DMers study the game in a different light compared to the RMers, and yet the DMers study the game A LOT.

I've said enough. Time to go eat supper.


29th Greatest AoMH Forumer ever, former (and proud) FPH Templar
Winner of CC_Straight_Og's "Most Humorous Reply" award (though I still have no idea why ).
Winner of AgeofMe's "The Site Jerk" title (and I do have an idea why )
"Character is destiny." -Heraclitus
Official Mascot of the Age of Mythology Heaven forums!
Yamato
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 07:19 PM EDT (US)     34 / 85       
You're right Immhotep... when I played DM on BF I was a DM rookie. If that makes my take on DM irrelevant than so be it. Guess what? I DON'T CARE. While I do have a definite personal preference between the two, and probably would stop playing the game if it were DM only and no RM, I am perfectly content to just state my observations and if others don't like it that is their problem... the only thing lamer than playing DM, in my opinion, is caring whether other people respect DM or RM.

>Once again, RM is *not* about strategic decision; it's about better execution.

If you say so. LOL


H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C
Yamato
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 07:22 PM EDT (US)     35 / 85       
>And u say that u hate "talking out of ignorance"
>arguments. The best way to prevent said arguments is to
>not talk out of ignorance yourself.

Wrong. The best way is to just not argue... and when a smack-talker like yourself comes along... just ignore it move along to another thread. Goodbye, and enjoy your self-righteous arguing.


H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C
vladimir87
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 07:27 PM EDT (US)     36 / 85       
I play deathmatch too Cloudchaser eagle, perhaps more than I should...Or do I not play enough

I would like some pointers on how to extinguish my gold so fast! I could never manage to do it...

In my first five minutes I (this is when I am franks. I like to try other civs. I think all are very capable. In fact I have even played the Vikings numerous times in the DM... I have won with them too. Tough though... Cant build horses )

Send scout and take out enemy vills...

Build 8-10 stables and shift click pals three times

Build about 6 barracks and build as many halbs as possible

Build market throw away my wood for my rapidly depleting gold...

Continually build houses with 2-3 of my villagers...

Rush 5-7 villagers along with pals (which I have sent as they came out to enemy)

Assign 20 villagers to gold...

Send all manner or pals and halbs to back up

If enemy is prepared delay and build about 3 forward castles. Build about 5 trebs in each

Build 5 siege workshops. Build ten scorpions each...

Advance trebs and pick off his trebs. have vills reparing trebs. Take out castles when treb threat is gone...

Once castle is down methodically advance with castles and pals and scorps and halbs and trebs until you wipe him out...


I'm sorry for this very simplistic view of my frankish dm rush. It seems to work lol (I could never explain all the little details, so just mention any major problems )

-Vladimir87

Quote:

Time to go eat supper

See ya!

BiO
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 07:49 PM EDT (US)     37 / 85       
Most players at the top level in dm run out of resources at about the 5 min mark and thats usually when they hit pop limit if you like i can link ya to some games that do so... And to the guy that said play on green arabia NO! that map is as bad as bf it takes no skill....arabia is the best map to play on and from time to time gold rush is ok.
Cloudchaser_Eagle
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 08:02 PM EDT (US)     38 / 85       
Vlad's post was just addressed by BiO, so I'm gonna spend some time on Yamato's posts:

Quoted from Yamato:

You're right Immhotep... when I played DM on BF I was a DM rookie. If that makes my take on DM irrelevant than so be it. Guess what? I DON'T CARE. While I do have a definite personal preference between the two, and probably would stop playing the game if it were DM only and no RM, I am perfectly content to just state my observations and if others don't like it that is their problem... the only thing lamer than playing DM, in my opinion, is caring whether other people respect DM or RM.
>Once again, RM is *not* about strategic decision; it's about better execution.

If you say so. LOL

>And u say that u hate "talking out of ignorance"
>arguments. The best way to prevent said arguments is to
>not talk out of ignorance yourself.
Wrong. The best way is to just not argue... and when a smack-talker like yourself comes along... just ignore it move along to another thread. Goodbye, and enjoy your self-righteous arguing.

OKAY, now to my "self righteous arguing":

"I am perfectly content to state my observations."

Observations are based upon fact, not ignorance. Any DM veteran would laugh at your first post about how gaining territory is so much more important in RM than in DM.

"The only thing lamer than playing DM...is caring whether other people respect RM or DM."

Not only is that insulting me, BiggN, Vlad, Immhotep, BiO, and TSD, but it is also insulting DD, who did absolutely nothing to you. That statement was utterly and completely uncalled for.

"and when a smack-talker like yourself comes along..."

Does anyone besides me notice the sheer hypocrisy of that statement?

Yamato, keep it civil. Don't go around insulting people who have done absolutely nothing to you. Period. End of story.


29th Greatest AoMH Forumer ever, former (and proud) FPH Templar
Winner of CC_Straight_Og's "Most Humorous Reply" award (though I still have no idea why ).
Winner of AgeofMe's "The Site Jerk" title (and I do have an idea why )
"Character is destiny." -Heraclitus
Official Mascot of the Age of Mythology Heaven forums!
Immhotep
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 08:19 PM EDT (US)     39 / 85       

Quoted from Yamato:

I was a DM rookie. If that makes my take on DM irrelevant than so be it.

It's ok if you're a DM rookie. However, it's NOT ok if you're a rookie in DM and used your limited experience on the area to draw uninformed and ridiculous conclusions about it. (And may I ask what is your ratings in RM... since I have a feeling you're rookie in RM also. Good players don't go around making ridiculous comments.)

Quoted from Yamato:

Guess what? I DON'T CARE. While I do have a definite personal preference between the two

Good for you! You have the freedom to play whatever game type you like. You have that right, but so do many players who wish to play other game types. Saying what game type you like better is one thing, while going around trash talking about other players' games is a different thing.

vladimir87
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 08:43 PM EDT (US)     40 / 85       
Oh well. If you say it can be done I guess it can be done.

I have rushed and killed 2 players (they weren't very good you can see, but they have fundamental AOK skills, like for instance, they know you have to build in a dm) in four minutes, I a wasted alot of gold in four minutes. Maybe if I did not use the market to trade wood I would run out too...

When ya think about it, I probably could build 14 stables and just waste all my gold. I see that it is certainly possible, I guess its just I ahve taught my self to leave about 2500 for trebs and such... Your probably right about that...

I still hold firmly that the RM is more economically involved. Like I have always said economy is a huge factor in both games, but I believe rm holds the edge...

Long live both!

*Beams*

Good discussion everyone... Lets all turn against Yamoto now j/k...

-Vladimir87

c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 22 May 2002 08:59 PM EDT (US)     41 / 85       
i dont know DM is fun and i never play RM only regicide

Evil Dragon
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 09:08 PM EDT (US)     42 / 85       
Well I'm not good at anything (can't beat comp. on hard most times) but I try!

I personally like DM better, because I think its easier (even though I lose 2 outa 3 times anyways) and if your first army is good then you probably won't need much econ. Just my opinion

These statemnts are not facts; please do not flame or humiliate the originator of this post


For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,
which God prepared in advance for us to do. -Ephesians 2:10
Past member of the orginal "Off-Topic Trio"!
Proud owner of an AoM alpha VIP!
Drummers Rock!

FPH | AoM Fropco
Unckle66
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 09:16 PM EDT (US)     43 / 85       
It should be RM
RM
RM
why
simply DM cuts half of the game because it elminates the need for economis management.
RM gives you the entire game to play.

So DM cuts economy while RM doent.

Thats it.

Immhotep
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 09:45 PM EDT (US)     44 / 85       
Unckle66, learn to play both games before commenting that DM has no econ. RM = micro econ; DM = MAcro econ.

The only "economic" thing DM eliminates is researching technologies.

Dagobert
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 10:14 PM EDT (US)     45 / 85       
Well, there are at least two way to play DM against one to play RM.

DM : Post-imperial start or dark start.

RM : Dark start with minimum ressources, anything else has a negligible popularity.

_________________________________

Starting in Dark playing DM, you will not spend all your gold in 5 minutes. But starting post imperial, it is very easy to do so. Anybody who tried a frank paladin's flood knows how fast gold is going out... You better build TCs and pump vils right from the start, you will need them very soon. (Any other viable DM post imperial strat is also gold hungry and the money is spent real fast)


************
la guerre comme la guerre
deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 10:17 PM EDT (US)     46 / 85       
i will first off say i have limited experience on DM, so i will not dispute anything said about it.

Except for this.

You say that in DM, that ECON IS IMPORTANT!!
Well, what about RM?? Towards the end of a RM game, one can have a pretty big econ and pump out alot of units.

Once the DM's initial resources gone, isn't the play somewhat similar to RM?? I mean, you make units, and you send them to destroy the other dude. RM just takes longer to get there.

The major difference here is the first 5 min. In DM, you don't have to worry about the economy AS MUCH as RM in the first 5 min. And i never took that much time in making my farms all neat and organized, i was always fighting with my armies.

RM is heavy on Econ, but it isn't sacrificing the military for it. In RM, you start off very vulnerable. You gotta find those sheep. You gotta explore/ These are musts right off the bat. In DM, you have some space. My impression, (correct me if wrong) is that in DM, you are expanding as fast as possible. Build Villes, Build Houses, Build Barracks, ect.

Give a RM game long enough and you will have just as much fighting and large armies as DM. By that time, the flow of resources that your empire has makes that intial starting of resources kinda insignificant

I repeat, try not to flame or troll.


The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Yamato
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 10:59 PM EDT (US)     47 / 85       
WOW, what a disenchanting thread on what I thought was a peaceful board. I thought I could make some innocent comments (hell I even threw in disclaimers all over the place) and people could take my comments for what they were worth and not get bent out of shape over opinions, but apparently I was wrong. I never tried to pass my takes off as gospel (unlike SOME people here) but you'd think I went on a bunch of "I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG" rants based on the reaction. Sad.

Rest assured, Cloudchaser, I would not have made the "smack-talker" comment and the "DM is lame" comment if I had not been first flamed and trolled left and right by Immhotep and yourself. Ask yourself what effect you were going for when you said, "Don't talk outta ignorance." and then "The best way to prevent said arguments is to not talk out of ignorance yourself." Hey that's very clever buddy but was that supposed to be constructive or were you just trying to instigate? Mmm hmm... that, combined with comments about DM players study the game more etc... that my friend is smack talk. SPEAKING of hypocricy...
As for Immhotep, I believe his flaming speaks for itself in each of his posts with all the "rookie" stuff and is much more inflammatory than yours or mine. Particularly his latest post, where even though it's BEYOND clear that I would like to just drop it he presses me on my RM rating and even goes so far as to throw in the comment "I bet it's rookie too".
But since I am such a good guy I will answer your question Immhotep despite how you are behaving... I played the hell out of ladder games in Starcraft before I ever started playing Age... and while I loved it for quite awhile, eventually I became so disappointed with all the cheating, bad sportsmanship, and general ill-humor that I gave up rated games. So I have never played AoK ladder games. To answer the INTENT of your flame question, I was a good but not great RM player. Are you satisfied? You shouldn't be. Contrary to what you may believe, 90+% of Age players are NOT ladder players and experts, so your belief that only someone as great as you can comment on what makes a game "good" is horribly flawed. Whether one game is better than another is largely subjective, or did you forget that? Therefore the opinion of the average player does count. I may have made some careless comments about DM but I still know what I like, and if you have too much of an inferority complex about DM to accept that, too bad. As for ratings and such, ROTFLMAO@u... next time please check your ego at the door, it didn't have to come to this.


H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C, H, C, C

[This message has been edited by Yamato (edited 05-23-2002 @ 00:04 AM).]

KatanaSwordfish
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:09 PM EDT (US)     48 / 85       
RM/DM.... it really depends... RM Games are fun, because you get to spend time on your economy as well as military and make more out of myth units and gods from all the ages...
but...
DM creates very quick battles and enables high-impact rushing, and it puts your high speed reflexes to the test also allowing you to make fate-disifering choises on the spot, which can be usefull when practicing rushing and anti-rushing tactics...

I like both and can't wait to try them out in October...

Later...

deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:11 PM EDT (US)     49 / 85       
that is a troll Yammy.
Please do not troll.

Quote:

next time please check your ego at the door, it didn't have to come to this


exactly, so please, if you are going to participate, don't flame and troll. To Debate, you are going to actually have credible facts and logic. Personal Belief means jack in debates, especailly if you don't have much experience.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 22 May 2002 11:12 PM EDT (US)     50 / 85       

Quoted from KatanaSwordfish:

in October...

blah ...o well a better game

anyways...i like DM cuz its faster like KatanaSwordfish said...Starcraft was fast and u didnt have spend tons of time on ur economy...i like that...battles r the best part


TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:17 PM EDT (US)     51 / 85       

TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
KatanaSwordfish
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:20 PM EDT (US)     52 / 85       
I strong dissagre with the amgument made by Immhotep, because RTS is not all about execution... like in real war tactics is what is important, execution is just a sub-branch of that...

you can choose to give commands as quickly as possible and then when attacking wander your troops into a double sided siege/archer blockade and then dual waves of infantry cavaly and myth units...

I also agree that RM games are better... but dubbing certain map types as "rookie maps" is oblivious to the fact that there are different stratagies for different maps... you can ignore tactics all you want but you will still lose to people who think one move ahead of themselves and two moves ahead of you...

...well, thats all i have to say...

deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:21 PM EDT (US)     53 / 85       
TSD, why are you bringing my Topic OT????

DM IMO does give you much time to get a feel of the map.
Its just fight fight fight too early.


The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
TheShadowDawn
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:22 PM EDT (US)     54 / 85       
Yoda was pointing out a few people weren't exercising their brains.

TheShdwDwn
If you're like me, then it's possible you're a clone generated from my stolen DNA. I suggest you turn yourself in for destruction immediately.
deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:27 PM EDT (US)     55 / 85       
*yanks thread back on topic*

Quote:

I strong dissagre with the amgument made by Immhotep, because RTS is not all about execution


It wasn't meant to be that way, but thats how it kinda ends up being.

You develope a system. And then you memorize it. You follow those exact steps everytime. You perfect them, but you always make soo many villagers, having so many on this, so many of this, and so many of this. You then advance to the next age. You immediately do this, and this, and this.

Everytime. It becomes systomatic. Which IMO, takes away from the game.


The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 22 May 2002 11:32 PM EDT (US)     56 / 85       

Quoted from deadlydentures:

*yanks thread back on topic*

good idea

anyways...i agree with deadlydentures...the systomatic thing is borin...regicide and RM r kinda the same each time u play them...u do this then this and then this and more of this (like dd said)...DM is kinda random as u build an army (if u play post-imperial which is the best way IMO) and ur enemies attack u and u attack back but its diff each time u play cuz u dont know what will happen...u dont have to manage a big economy so u dont any of the "this the this" stuff...DM is more random and therefore more fun...thats what i think

ur thoughts?


deadlydentures
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:35 PM EDT (US)     57 / 85       

Quote:

DM is more random and therefore more fun.


Explain

In RM, you don't start out with a significant amount of resources, so location of resources makes things different and more random. While in DM, you start out with those resources.

If anything, RM is more random, therefore more fun.


The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
KatanaSwordfish
Mortal
posted 22 May 2002 11:40 PM EDT (US)     58 / 85       
IMO.... RM/DM should BOTH be played by everyone....

To master both of these game styles together is mastering the game completely... so niether are for "rookies" or "experts"...

They are both also similar because they are both of tactics and stratagy...

RM... is what i like to call a SLOW-TACTIC game... you need to make economic choises to forge your future as well as military choises, and plans to finally overcome and destroy all opponents... Mastering RM means mastering these...
-Resources gathering(when and how to gather certain things)
-Gradual territorial advancement
-When to deploy your troops and when to build them up (for instance you dont want to attack with the tree troops you have when they can easily combat them and counterstirke)...

DM... is what i like to call a FAST-TACTIC game... the economic choises have been made for you... and the skill lies somewhat in how you can manipulate the keyboard and
build units and buildings first... but this is purely battle tactics that rely on certain things...
-Manipulation of the terrain to your advantage...
-Knowing when to advance, retreat, and hold ground...
-"Combating fire with water" find the weakness and exploit it...


Basically, DM, is a quicker version of RM, you do not need much time to gather resources, and RM is a way to control the fate of the game...

Kind of like a manual vs. automatic camera... the auto focusses automatically...but the manual gives you the option to add your own style and techniques to make the picture cumstumized...
I hope I have created a new train of thought for people...

Later...

Immhotep
Mortal
posted 23 May 2002 00:00 AM EDT (US)     59 / 85       

Quoted from Yamato:

WOW, what a disenchanting thread on what I thought was a peaceful board. I thought I could make some innocent comments

Oh please... "innocent" comments that aimed at bashing others.

Quoted from Yamato:

I would not have made the "DM is lame" comment if I were not provoked by Immhotep.

Yamato... don't be playing that "pointing finger" or "it's not my fault, he started it" game now. You chose to trash talk about DM. How did I "provoked" you? By saying that you're not in a position to bash DM because of your limited experience?

Well isn't that logical, I mean since you cannot just play a few games of DM and draw conclusions such as "DM is lame". You can say that you don't like to play DM, and that would be perfectly fine. That's your preference. But going around saying things such as "DM is lame" is not about preferences, but about provoking others.

YOU, Yamato, were the one who did the provoking!


c r e e z y
Mortal
(id: Hairy Scary Man)
posted 23 May 2002 00:05 AM EDT (US)     60 / 85       
both of u chill out...Yamato can think what he wants and Immhotep can think what he wants...neither of u or any1 else should b insulted or bashed or flamed because of their opinion...just say u disagree dont bash/flame/insult/kill/whatever

Now back to your regular scheduled program (That'd be the topic )


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