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Age of Mythology Heaven » Forums » Scenario Design » hey Microsoft and Ensemble, do you hear?
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Topic Subject:hey Microsoft and Ensemble, do you hear?
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Anastasoulis
Mortal
posted 27 October 2005 04:20 AM EDT (US)         
I think that the AoM game didn't receive the deserved attention from ESO, and it has been an in between project ~ in between AoE's games.
There was only one cd expansion the Atlanteans which moved the game to the Titan level. Other than that, any advances made to the game, where made notable due to the efforts of such individuals as Reyk (I'm only naming him because of the editor), and many many others whose names I don't want to list - lest I forget anyone.
I remember that the other game I liked a lot and played for 1 year, Cossacks, which wasn't such a big hit, issued also an expansion (really just a mod with some extra units), plus offered a cd collection of many many "best" scenarios made by people in the forum. Then CossacksII came out that was a big rebamp of the game and I think it was based on a mod made by some forum group of designers.

So what's the point of this "no point" thread?
There are approx. 20-30 of us guys who keep busy in this forum and working on various stuff, plus there's another 10-20 guys "passing by" at all times. The work produced by this Internet Clan, in my opinion, is very creative and good enough that it could be "circulated" for a minimum price by the company. All this could/should be done with an auto-installation as per standard upgrades.
Why should they do that?
BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO BUY THESE GAMES, DON'T FOLLOW THE INTERNET FORUMS, DON'T DL STUFF AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO INSTALL VARIOUS OTHER THINGS.

For the sales stimulation and to keep the game going for another year or so. Proof for my point, is the AoK forum that still goes on strong.

Just some thoughts I wanted to share...

regards


the Elder
"imagination is more important than knowledge."
Albert Einstein
AuthorReplies:
Nodgene
Mortal
posted 28 October 2005 03:54 PM EDT (US)     26 / 82       
Capatalism is good because it rewards the hard workers.

Communism is good because it is based on social equality.

Capatalism is bad because it puts people in poverty.

Communism is bad because it usually won't work.

Solution? Bow down and pick a dictator you like

But yes, bad es, BAAAD!!


"That's your excuse for everything... Someone's either pregnant or a communist."
Protecting the public from the Christian Taliban since forever.
Mythos_Ruler
Mortal
posted 28 October 2005 09:52 PM EDT (US)     27 / 82       
There will be a game coming out, possibly in 2006, that will answer all your prayers...
Kumar Shah
Mortal
posted 28 October 2005 10:17 PM EDT (US)     28 / 82       
Selling community based scenarios == invitation to lawsuits. Similar reason - they didn't include any of reyk's editor functions/capabilites in AoE3.

Quote:

20-30 of us guys

Actually, the case for this was lost in that sentence itself.


Can you do the Double Yoda?
A sexual move, where you do a double backflip, insert your penis into the orifice of choice, and scream, "Afraid are you?"

[This message has been edited by KS (edited 10-28-2005 @ 10:18 PM).]

ToMyBoY
Mortal
posted 29 October 2005 03:27 AM EDT (US)     29 / 82       
No I think Anastasoulis is suggesting a licensed project, sanctioned by ES. No one disputes xpacks and extra-map packs don't keep titles alive, they do. And if ES wanted to make deals they could. Yeah ES uses a lot of middleware, but those subs are in the business of selling their licenses, and could make any kind of deal they want. I think it's a philosophical thing with ES - they just aren't interested in making a moddable game. I think it's in part due to paranoia of hackers and the pressure it could place on ESO. It's a stark contrast from other games like posters have hinted at. I know Doom 3 is totally moddable, and that's a commitment to their fans ID made early on. And as far as I know, ID has never faced any serious problems with hackers to their on-line play, nor in the illegal distribution of their engine and assets.

I don't understand why ES doesn't realize how much supporting the modding community could help in their bottom line. Another map pack for sale (made in house or by hobbyists) would sell quite a few copies. I just think ES is not a company whose interested in producing games that are easily moddable, and I can't see this changing unless there's a change in the executive and corporate strategy.

Nodgene
Mortal
posted 29 October 2005 10:05 AM EDT (US)     30 / 82       

Quote:

Selling community based scenarios == invitation to lawsuits. Similar reason - they didn't include any of reyk's editor functions/capabilites in AoE3.

Actually, "Westwood" worked with one of their fans who made a map-editor for "Red Alert 2", and distributed it free of charge and had regular fan map packs for download on their site.
It isn't a matter of law suits, it's a matter of co-operation.


"That's your excuse for everything... Someone's either pregnant or a communist."
Protecting the public from the Christian Taliban since forever.
ray child of sol
Mortal
posted 29 October 2005 12:03 PM EDT (US)     31 / 82       

Quote:

Civilisation 4 was built from the bottom-up with modding and map design in mind

Can you direct me to a site with instructions on how to do this?

Quote:

There will be a game coming out, possibly in 2006, that will answer all your prayers

What one?

Rabid_Potatoe
Mortal
posted 29 October 2005 12:38 PM EDT (US)     32 / 82       
0AD Probably.

Rabid Potatoe Is The Win.
Argalius
Mortal
posted 29 October 2005 02:14 PM EDT (US)     33 / 82       

Quote:

There will be a game coming out, possibly in 2006, that will answer all your prayers...


Mythos, shut up.

|| argalius.elpea.net
|| Cherub at AoE3H
|| In honor of FlipBizcut
|| Mod: The Age of Crusades
ToMyBoY
Mortal
posted 29 October 2005 06:08 PM EDT (US)     34 / 82       
And wasn't Counter Strike a fan based mod that Valve eventually sanctioned, licensed, and ended up releasing as an official game? The gaming business is ripe with examples of companies working with their fans.
Citrus Caesar
Mortal
(id: The Guarding One)
posted 30 October 2005 05:17 AM EDT (US)     35 / 82       
Microsoft has poisoned their minds......

Maid, I don't think that will be necessary.
Nodgene
Mortal
posted 30 October 2005 07:41 AM EDT (US)     36 / 82       

Quote:

Can you direct me to a site with instructions on how to do this?

What you mean? Mod civ4? Dunno if it'll have instructions, but goto their website. If you mean in general you're being way too vauge.


"That's your excuse for everything... Someone's either pregnant or a communist."
Protecting the public from the Christian Taliban since forever.
Oscar
Mortal
posted 30 October 2005 09:34 AM EDT (US)     37 / 82       
Despite I'm quite pessimist there is no harm in trying.
IMHO someone should try to conctact ES and to speak for everyone here also making a list of every utility, scenario, mod... to put in this add on.
Maybe they will listen us...

Argalius
Mortal
posted 30 October 2005 09:41 AM EDT (US)     38 / 82       
I sent e-mails to ES quite some times. Only at one I eventually got a respons...

|| argalius.elpea.net
|| Cherub at AoE3H
|| In honor of FlipBizcut
|| Mod: The Age of Crusades
Reinfire
Mortal
posted 30 October 2005 10:08 AM EDT (US)     39 / 82       

Quote:

I sent e-mails to ES quite some times. Only at one I eventually got a respons...

Wow, you get more response from ES than me from any seraph


Reinfire
--Retired Scenario Designer--
Everybody needs to beleive in something. I beleive I will have another beer

[This message has been edited by Reinfire (edited 10-30-2005 @ 10:08 AM).]

ray child of sol
Mortal
posted 30 October 2005 10:20 AM EDT (US)     40 / 82       

Quote:

What you mean? Mod civ4? Dunno if it'll have instructions, but goto their website. If you mean in general you're being way too vauge.

Sorry, I meant instructions to mod Civ4 (like Steven Caine's Guide) but I'm threadjacking now.

Nodgene
Mortal
posted 30 October 2005 11:08 AM EDT (US)     41 / 82       
Well the game won't be out for 6 days anyway, when it is there will be many guides and much help I guess, two major forums for it which you can link to if you go to the civ4 webby.

Anyway, back on topic: Ehhhhh - that are we gonna' do?


"That's your excuse for everything... Someone's either pregnant or a communist."
Protecting the public from the Christian Taliban since forever.
ToMyBoY
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 02:40 AM EDT (US)     42 / 82       
We start a designer's guild and agree not to release any new scenarios and campaigns for AOE3 until we drive ES to their knees. Then when everyone starts bitching that there's no new material for AOE3, and when interest dies in like a couple of months after the release because there's nothing anyone can play other than the vanilla campaign again, then ES will be forced to deal with us.

Then we cross the Rubicon and invade ES's office. Damn I doubt we have the solidarity though.

Anastasoulis
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 03:18 AM EDT (US)     43 / 82       
OK, I'm feeling kind of bad for making this thread now, cause it was misunderstood by some people.

@ Reinfire
no Reinfire my friend, I don't want money ~thank God I'm a working man and I make enough to make a dignified living, so I don't need any American company to give me any money at all.

@ King Jared

Quote:

Summary: ES should promote Internet-community designed scenarios.


exactemundo ~very very correct

@ King Jared
totally agree with you

@ ray child of sol
that's exactly the spirit

@ The Ex God
Game making by Microsoft or any other company, doesn't have to be made for free, but they could employee the programmers and others on a regular basis and also use the ideas and other stuff from the appropriate forums.

@ Nodgene
I don't care about political discussions cause I'm too old for that. But allow me to say that Capitalism is the only system today that is functional. Communism failed because of 2 reasons:
1) they didn't understand that you can't change human nature, thus they failed to create "homo communisticus" ~ i.e. the "new man" they envisaged.
and
2) they failed to provide the standard of living enjoyed by the people of the Western World. They failed even to provide the basic stuff ~did you know that Moscow never could provide drinking water for it's inhabitants and that they Moskovites have had to always boil their water?

@ KS

Quote:

Selling community based scenarios == invitation to lawsuits. Similar reason - they didn't include any of reyk's editor functions/capabilites in AoE3.


Isn't everything we make and upload here owned by the company?

About the "20-30 of us guys" sentence of mine, you're right ~ in order for something to be worthy and good, it should've been 20-30 thousand.
That is one kind of thinking, unless you have another way of thinking following the ancient Greek saying: "OUK EN TO POLLO TO EU" ~"quality isn't found in numbers/size" !!!
I love you too, but we have a different perspective in life.

@ ToMyBoY
EXACTLY !!!
What you say.

@ Nodgene
you're so correct, cooperation is the thing.

@ ToMyBoY

Quote:

The gaming business is ripe with examples of companies working with their fans.


My point also.

@ Oscar
nice thought, but it will end up to nothing happening cause the company doesn't think like that.

AND ONE MORE THING:
would it not be in the company's best interests to give Oscar 1.000 euros (dollars for you Americans) so that he can buy a new computer and do some more great designing, which they could take and use as add on scenarios (instead of that childish stuff they make)?
I'm just mentioning Oscar, cause I recall him mentioning some limitations he faces due to his computer machine. There are also many other great designers around that face the same type of problem.
Oh and Reinfire my friend, no I don't want their money to buy a new computer, thank you. I have enough money to buy myself whatever I need, and in fact I'll buy a new PC (at 3.2 GigaHertz, Pentium4, Hyperthreading, with a pretty good graphics card) next year, following my computer update/upgrade plan every three years. So pls, don't say again that I want money from Microsoft, cause I don't care to be involved with those guys.
This whole thing, was just a philosophical search on my part, and I know that I'm a romantic fool ~ thank you very much. Now you can flame me, it's OK...

best regards

George


the Elder
"imagination is more important than knowledge."
Albert Einstein
dwieeb
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 11:56 AM EDT (US)     44 / 82       
If you really think about it, there is no real benifit for making these scenarios and uploading them...

As you said in the post, Anastasoulis, (and I repeated in this reply) they would need an auto-installer. Good idea! I wish it is used :/

Maybe the problem is not very many people know about HeavenGames...if ES had a link on their game, then all that stuff would happen.

~DWIEEB

Kumar Shah
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 12:49 PM EDT (US)     45 / 82       

Quote:

Isn't everything we make and upload here owned by the company?
About the "20-30 of us guys" sentence of mine, you're right ~ in order for something to be worthy and good, it should've been 20-30 thousand.
That is one kind of thinking, unless you have another way of thinking following the ancient Greek saying: "OUK EN TO POLLO TO EU" ~"quality isn't found in numbers/size" !!!
I love you too, but we have a different perspective in life.

They don't own your intellectual property rights.

If it was 20-30 thousand, it becomes feasible to support it. ES is in the end a business, its job is to also make a profit.

Compare AoM Scenarios to Counterstrike? Compare AoM mods to Counterstrike? Show me one AoM scn/mod which was played by as many people as counterstrike was being played before Valve decided to release it for free officially.

Quote:

The gaming business is ripe with examples of companies working with their fans.

The comment is based on the editor community, which whether you guys like it or not is a very small community. ES did work with fans on the gaming portion of AoE3 and/or ESO2.

Quote:

would it not be in the company's best interests to give Oscar 1.000 euros (dollars for you Americans) so that he can buy a new computer and do some more great designing, which they could take and use as add on scenarios (instead of that childish stuff they make)?
I'm just mentioning Oscar, cause I recall him mentioning some limitations he faces due to his computer machine. There are also many other great designers around that face the same type of problem.

It would benefit Oscar more. Is he obiliged to make scenarios for them every month? Every 3 months? What should be a measure for the quality of the scenario? Does it entitle a contract between Oscar and ES when this happens? Why Oscar? Can another good designer claim he has a bad computer and get a great one for free or in return for making 4-5 good scenarios?


Can you do the Double Yoda?
A sexual move, where you do a double backflip, insert your penis into the orifice of choice, and scream, "Afraid are you?"
Argalius
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 01:20 PM EDT (US)     46 / 82       

Quote:

Compare AoM Scenarios to Counterstrike? Compare AoM mods to Counterstrike? Show me one AoM scn/mod which was played by as many people as counterstrike was being played before Valve decided to release it for free officially.


You can't compare the FPS with the RTS genre. Also most of the AoM mods suck because we could hardly make something because we were bound to a dozen things. Like no hotspots, the "mother" model. You don't have all those things with HL.

|| argalius.elpea.net
|| Cherub at AoE3H
|| In honor of FlipBizcut
|| Mod: The Age of Crusades
Kumar Shah
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 01:30 PM EDT (US)     47 / 82       
Exactly my point. Don't look at Valve and say ES should do what they do. Counter Strike would make people buy HL2. A mod to include dwarves as civilization in AoM won't make people buy AoE3.

Can you do the Double Yoda?
A sexual move, where you do a double backflip, insert your penis into the orifice of choice, and scream, "Afraid are you?"
ToMyBoY
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 05:02 PM EDT (US)     48 / 82       

Quote:

If it was 20-30 thousand, it becomes feasible to support it. ES is in the end a business, its job is to also make a profit.

Compare AoM Scenarios to Counterstrike? Compare AoM mods to Counterstrike? Show me one AoM scn/mod which was played by as many people as counterstrike was being played before Valve decided to release it for free officially.

Well if I were to count the scenario and campaign DLs just on here on the DBase, we'd be in the tens of thousands - hell I have two whose totals are >10,000 DLs. Let's double that for arguments sake and to conservatively estimate how many DLs there have been of the fan material submitted. And don't forget, the quality varies greatly, yet people took the time to DL them.

Okay, so ES releases a title and announces a contest, and the best scenarios are selected for an ES sanctioned fan scenario/campaign pack that's released through the normal channels in say five months after the initial release of the game. And let's assume it costs Microsoft a bit to manufacture and distribute it. Let's say in the end it sells for $25 and sells a total of 20,000 units (which it's sure to sell more). That's $500,000 gross profit. The designers could get a small royalty of $.20 per unit sold (say there is 15 of them), MS is given their cut of say $1.50 per unit to cover manufacturing, that still leaves $410,000 net profit. All for a cost of $0 to ES other than promoting and administering the contest, and overseeing production.

It's not just the so-called 20-30 guys designing that benefit from this, it's also the 20,000+ fans that get another xpack to play. And remember, it's not just the hard cold dollars here that are the benefit. Such a project would weld relations between ES and design community, and building such customer relationships is worth well more than just the immediate profits. And tell me a scenario design contest where the prize is being on an official release, and getting a small royalty wouldn't attract a lot of people to the editor tool. This proposal does make sense, both in terms of PR, and in terms of profit.

While I would prefer laying seige to ES's office instead, I would also accept a more diplomatic approach.

[This message has been edited by ToMyBoY (edited 10-31-2005 @ 05:04 PM).]

Kumar Shah
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 08:12 PM EDT (US)     49 / 82       
There is no need to "sell" scenarios. Counterstrike doesn't sell, its available for free.

Can you do the Double Yoda?
A sexual move, where you do a double backflip, insert your penis into the orifice of choice, and scream, "Afraid are you?"
King Jared
Mortal
posted 31 October 2005 08:22 PM EDT (US)     50 / 82       
Yes, yes.... fight and struggle, puppets.

Your Divine Overlord
KING JARED
Aw, hell, I dunno, she had some tig-ole-bitties, d'int she?
big.vitt@gmail.com
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